Building a new house in Isaan

[Encid]

We also asked for some concrete steps to be built so we can step down from the filled land level to the pond level in comfort and safety.

 

It was hot and dusty work and the soil is very hard due to the heavy rains over the past 12 months compacting the land.

 

 

[Encid]

And as of this morning (5 March) the raw water storage area has been cleared by hand and boxed in (using surplus concrete panels from our panel wall) and is ready for reinforcing mesh and concrete.

 

 

The slab extension for the counter is also ready to receive concrete.

 

 

And the slab extension for the filtered water storage has been boxed in and is ready to receive concrete.

 

 

The location has been agreed for a floor drain (to be installed before the concrete pour) and soakwell to service the washing machine outlet.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Encid said:

If his beam size is not as deep, then we might be able to increase storage tanks size to 2500L or 3000L,

If you have a hight limit then you are using the wrong type of storage tank. We have medium sized ones are 2,500L and they are 1.3 meters high. You can get them up to about 5,000L though of course they are taller

[Encid]

16 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If you have a hight limit then you are using the wrong type of storage tank. We have medium sized ones are 2,500L and they are 1.3 meters high. You can get them up to about 5,000L though of course they are taller

It is a 3D spatial limit, not a height limit.

 

In that particular area we want to fit our water pump, our water filters (particulate, activated charcoal, and ion exchange resin + saline regen bath, plus a washing machine and enough spare area for hand-washing, as well as the tank(s), and the footprint for all that gear is fairly tight... the only constraint in the vertical plane is the roof and it's supportive beams.

 

Short fat tanks are not being considered due to footprint constraints.

[Encid]

I contacted the builder last night and showed him this photo.

 

I told him that I didn't think that the steel mesh looked strong enough to adequately support the additional raw water storage tanks.

He said he would look into it.

 

 

This morning I received a message from him as follows: "I'm sorry, I was wrong to give less importance to this than the house, today will tie more steel and add more concrete".

 

I really like this builder. 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, Encid said:

I really like this builder. 

Is he really 100% Thai?

He's on your side.

But

It's you that's spotting the problems, not him.

[Encid]

Just now, Muhendis said:

Is he really 100% Thai?

He's on your side.

But

It's you that's spotting the problems, not him.

Is 100% Thai... believe me!

He is very agreeable by nature (as another forum member who had his house built by the same builder has attested) and does not get ruffled at all.

 

He (like me) is not on site very day and relies on the the photographs that his foreman sends him.

The reinforcing mesh in the slab for the raw water tanks was placed by his foreman, and our builder had not seen it, so he agreed with me.

He knows that my wife's family also send me daily photos so I can see the progress and hopefully catch any problems before it's too late.

 

He knows that I am not a trouble-maker, but I do want a quality job and I am sure that he will try to deliver.

He does pride himself on his reputation and wants to keep his customers happy.

[Encid]

Now... our second change to design... removal of one column.

 

When we were walking around the build and getting a feel for the internal dimensions of the GH, both my wife and I agreed that if possible, we would remove one column as it took up too much space in the open living area. (They are all 20 x 20cm in size.) 

 

It was a "hangover" from the original architect's design when we had a flat concrete roof, and this column was needed to provide structural support for the heavy mass of reinforced concrete.

But when we changed the roof design to a sloping steel roof behind a rendered AAC block façade, we didn't change the size of the columns, just the amount of reinforcing steel inside them.

 

This is the column that we wanted removed:

 

 

We discussed this with our builder and asked him what it would take and cost to remove this column.

 

He answered that the roof steel (which he was just about to order) would need to go up one size as it would be spanning 6m instead of 4m and it was no big deal.

 

We asked about cost and he said about 3000 baht plus the labour to demolish the column, to which we readily agreed.

 

He then informed us that he wanted to change the plan due to 1) the hot weather, and 2) some of the workers did not want to go home for holidays at Songkran... they wanted to work through, so the next step would not be the erection of the AAC walls but the installation of the roof so the workers could have some shade.

 

No problem for me… I’m sure that they will be happier and not take (so many) shortcuts if they are working in more comfortable conditions.

I still bring my laser level with me every time that we visit… 

[Encid]

Today the mesh for the raw water storage slab was replaced by RB12 rods, and the roof frame partially assembled:

 

 

This afternoon the concrete was poured:

 

 

And the additional 2000L tanks and the 2" PVC pipe has been delivered.

 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, Encid said:

we would remove one column as it took up too much space in the open living area.

Yeah. I can sympathise with that.

My builder wanted to place a pillar about 3M in front of the front door.

I had him resolve that at the design stage.

[unheard]

21 hours ago, Encid said:

He answered that the roof steel (which he was just about to order) would need to go up one size as it would be spanning 6m instead of 4m and it was no big deal.

Of course It's no big deal to the builder.

But did you (he) consult the architect or structural engineer?

Structural changes like that should not be left to the builder to decide, not without the architect's approval!

Edited April 7, 2023 by unheard

[unheard]

19 hours ago, Muhendis said:

My builder wanted to place a pillar about 3M in front of the front door.

I had him resolve that at the design stage.

Yeah, builders must follow an approved design to a tee.

No any deviations should be allowed unless specified by an architect or structural engineer.

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, unheard said:

Yeah, builders must follow an approved design to a tee.

No any deviations should be allowed unless specified by an architect or structural engineer.

 

 

In Isaan? ????

 

They can't manage to put windows in the right place!

[unheard]

2 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

In Isaan? ????

 

They can't manage to put windows in the right place!

Does the location really matter for a quality build?

[Encid]

Just now, unheard said:

Of course It's no big deal to the builder.

But did you (he) consult the architect or structural engineer?

Structural changes like that should not be left to the builder to decide, not without the architect's approval!

Our builder has a couple of qualified structural engineers on his staff (I have seen their qualifications) and he runs things like this past them to determine the actual sizing, but I think that he (like so many other experienced people) can offer a qualified opinion based on his experience of building many houses.

 

Same as me when I saw the mesh that was originally placed for the raw water concrete slab... it just looked wrong.

[Encid]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

 

In Isaan? ????

 

They can't manage to put windows in the right place!

I know what you mean... I have seen many houses built by local "builders" who do not work to approved architect's plans and just construct something to a budget, not to a design.

And most Isaan village houses are not "approved" by any government agency either.

 

We searched for a builder within a 120km radius who had a proven track record, built quality houses, and took pride in his work... and could also work to a budget.

We were not going to use the local "builders".

We were lucky to find one based in Khon Kaen and happy that he agreed to undertake our project.

[unheard]

34 minutes ago, Encid said:

Our builder has a couple of qualified structural engineers on his staff (I have seen their qualifications) and he runs things like this past them to determine the actual sizing, but I think that he (like so many other experienced people) can offer a qualified opinion based on his experience of building many houses.

If the column deletion change has been run by the engineers and approved then it's all good.

Sorry, it wasn't clear from your post.

I just wouldn't be so sure about validity of builder's own opinions on structural designs, regardless of how many houses he's built in the past.

There is a clear reason for why they have structural engineers employed.

That's their job to oversee those kinds of changes.

[unheard]

1 hour ago, Encid said:

We searched for a builder within a 120km radius who had a proven track record, built quality houses, and took pride in his work... and could also work to a budget.

We were not going to use the local "builders".

Agree.

I don't know why it still needs to be explained on this forum.

It's OK to employ local unqualified "builders" (in reality, farmers) to build a house.

Many have done just that and saved truly significant amounts of money in the process.

But somehow they still expect to have lasting quality afterwards.

You get what you pay for.

There's no need to bicker later on on how bad and incapable Thai tradesmen are.

Farmers are not tradesmen.

Edited April 7, 2023 by unheard

[hotandsticky]

16 hours ago, unheard said:

Does the location really matter for a quality build?

Yes.  It is a question of finding a proper builder. Few and far between in Isaan.

[farmerjo]

Coming along nicely Encid.

Our last build the guy went way overkill with the steel roof structure and with changing temperatures you can here it creak and growl like it wants to pop the tek screws out.

He was a motor body builder come shed builder come house builder.???? so i don't expect you to have this problem but thought i would mention it.

[unheard]

3 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Yes.  It is a question of finding a proper builder. Few and far between in Isaan.

Proper builders normally operate out of sizeable cities.

Farmer "builders" reside in the countryside.

 

Proper builders will need to have an incentive to come out of their immediate area when asked to build a house in the middle of nowhere, especially if the builders' local market is busy enough to keep them working.

The busier they become locally, the more expensive it gets to bring them out.

But they will come as long as the price justifies their expense and inconvenience of working in a remote location.

 

If you're in the sticks and unwilling to pay the "remoteness premium" then yeah, you got a problem.

Edited April 8, 2023 by unheard

[Encid]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Coming along nicely Encid.

Our last build the guy went way overkill with the steel roof structure and with changing temperatures you can here it creak and growl like it wants to pop the tek screws out.

He was a motor body builder come shed builder come house builder.???? so i don't expect you to have this problem but thought i would mention it.

Thank you

 

Hopefully that won't happen with our build.

 

The under-roof area (or attic if you like) steel should not be subjected to wide ranging temperatures as we will be using 50mm thk PU foam-backed Bluescope steel for the roof, and the ceiling will be covered in 150mm thk SCG "Stay Cool" insulation, so the actual steelwork will not see any direct heat from the sun nor radiant heat from the roof steel.

 

If the steelwork does creak a bit hopefully the insulation will deaden the sound somewhat.

[Encid]

Yesterday the additional raw water tanks were placed on the concrete base and piped together with a common 2" suction header to the 250W pump.

The pump will provide water to a 2" ring main around the pond and also a 2" feed line underground across the plot to the concrete slat wall and then to the Guest House.

Various 1/2" offtakes will be located for gardening/watering purposes along the route.

 

 

 

The suction header will also act as a common fill line for all 5 tanks so the level inside the tanks will be the same.

The fill line comes from our PV solar panel powered submersible pump in a bore/well.

All 5 tanks will have an overflow line each which will discharge to the pond when the tanks are full.

It will initially be a manually operated system, but I hope to automate it one day with a float switch and a relay to the sub pump which is about 200m away.

(If anyone has some ideas on how I could do this I would much appreciate it.)

 

I do not want to have a repeat of the problem I saw just a few weeks ago...

 

Our single tank had run out of water and FIL had turned on the solar powered pump to fill it, then he headed off to burn some wood in another part of the farm to make charcoal.

BIL had stayed by the pond and was supposed to turn off the pump when the tank was full.

He forgot and was just watching the water jet out the overflow without a concern in the world.

He was sitting in the shade at the other end of the pond so would not have had a clear view of what was actually going on.

I happened to walk past at the time and noticed that the overflow was gushing out of the tank and that the energy of that water exiting was enough to push the tank backwards off it's base.

It is a 2" supply line but only a 1" overflow line.

I yelled at him to turn off the pump before any damage occurred.

After he returned and the tank had settled back down onto it's base I showed him the photo and he was genuinely shocked.

We inspected the fill piping for any damage but none was visible so we were lucky that the LDPE line was flexible enough to take the bending without breaking.

 

 

Lesson learned and that is why all 5 raw water storage tanks are going to be piped together... so that they all fill (and get emptied) at the same time, and that they all will have overflow lines so the situation above cannot happen again.

 

[unheard]

2 hours ago, Encid said:

If the steelwork does creak a bit hopefully the insulation will deaden the sound somewhat.

My understanding that it's not the structural steel work that creaks, but the roof sheets themselves rubbing against each other or against the structural steel underneath.

The daily thermal steel expansion/contraction cycle produces some sheet movement.

But it's not a guaranteed thing to get much creaking to start with - will lastly depend on the roof's geometry, overall construction quality, number of attachment points, length and number of sheets, their thickness, etc, etc.

Besides with that amount of insulation you shouldn't really hear much at all.

The initial morning/evening creaking sounds if initially present should become less frequent or even go away with time as the roof settles.

Edited April 8, 2023 by unheard

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Encid said:

All 5 tanks will have an overflow line each which will discharge to the pond when the tanks are full.

It will initially be a manually operated system, but I hope to automate it one day with a float switch and a relay to the sub pump which is about 200m away.

(If anyone has some ideas on how I could do this I would much appreciate it.)

It’s a reasonably simple job to do. Since you have what is effective a single tank a single maximum minimum electrical float switch will do the job. You can add a relay in, this will reduce the size of the wire needed to connect the pump. 
 

I really don’t see that this is in anyway complicated, or in need of design ideas.

 

Unless the tanks are being supplied by rain water you will never need the overflow.

if however they are dual sourced then just ensure that the overflow pipe is larger in diameter than the rain water inlet, problem solved

[Muhendis]

3 hours ago, Encid said:

(If anyone has some ideas on how I could do this I would much appreciate it.)

You can get a simple float switch arrangement with both high and low level floats on a piece of cord. The switch can control an A.C. pump directly. Since your pump is D.C. and 200 meters away then, as sometimewoodworker said, a control relay and a very long wire between float switch and pump would be required.

 

My own setup is vastly more complicated because I have two sources of water and additional failure/safety features but it started off the same as yours but on a smaller scale.

[Muhendis]

3 hours ago, Encid said:

Yesterday the additional raw water tanks were placed on the concrete base and piped together with a common 2" suction header to the 250W pump.

It might be an idea to not fill those tanks for a few weeks to give the concrete time to get to maximum strength.

[Encid]

27 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

It might be an idea to not fill those tanks for a few weeks to give the concrete time to get to maximum strength.

Good idea... I'll pass it on. 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, Muhendis said:

You can get a simple float switch arrangement with both high and low level floats on a piece of cord. The switch can control an A.C. pump directly. Since your pump is D.C. and 200 meters away then, as sometimewoodworker said, a control relay and a very long wire between float switch and pump would be required.

I didn’t elaborate on the wiring as it is really simple, however it seems that what is simple to me may not be as obvious as I assume. The 300 baht float switch has contacts that are capable of switching 16A (they are able to be wired usually on or usually off). However as the pump is 200 metres away an under 1A 220V AC (you can probably use low voltage DC if required) control current will make things easier, so you put your contactor near the pump so you don’t have a high current load for any significant distance. I am assuming that the power feed from the PV is close to the pump.

 

FWIW 7 days will be enough to start filling and you will be able to troubleshoot the pipe work. However on the pipe work you are currently unable to isolate any one tank so any problem or need to clean a single tank will require you to empty all the tanks. We have only 3 but I can have each one isolated if I need to. Adding valves before you start filling is simple, after they are full, not so much.

Edited April 8, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[Muhendis]

13 hours ago, Muhendis said:

You can get a simple float switch arrangement with both high and low level floats on a piece of cord. The switch can control an A.C. pump directly. Since your pump is D.C. and 200 meters away then, as sometimewoodworker said, a control relay and a very long wire between float switch and pump would be required.

 

My own setup is vastly more complicated because I have two sources of water and additional failure/safety features but it started off the same as yours but on a smaller scale.

On reflection. Have a look at the pump control box. They usually have an input specifically for a tank float switch in which case a relay will not be necessary.

Just run wires from the switch to the control box. 

Do you have the control box spec?

If you do, post it on here so we can see where to make the connections.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Muhendis