Thai citizenship - Paying taxes vs consecutive years with Work Permit

[Flaxx]

Hi All, 

 

I would really appreciate if someone with some experience in this area could provide some valuable insights into if I am eligible to apply for Thai citizenship. I already know that I pass most requirements for it, and I have been looking into this for many years. In short, I have been living (this time around) for 10 years in Thailand. I have, consecutively, been paying taxes to the government for the last 8+ years. I have two concerns though. 1) I was without a work permit for 6 months in 2020. 2) I changed my visa from a business visa to a marriage visa (I know that no visa with that name exist, but I think you know what I mean) and back to business visa again. I haven't been out of the country for 10 years and the visa / visa extension was done at the immigration. 

Some more information about me. I am married since 20 years back, have a daughter born in Thailand for 17 years ago. I am fluent in Thai. I have a yellow house registration book, and ID card. I am currently working (1 year and 6 months on work permit / current visa extension) and I have my own business, currently employing 10 people. 

Does any of my concerns (1) or (2) above prevents me from successfully applying for Thai Citizenship? If yes, are both of these issues or only one of them? 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

You have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes for 3 consecutive years to apply for Thai nationality.

Did you change the reason for your extension of stay (it is not a visa) from working to one based upon marriage or did you leave the country to apply for a non-o visa based upon marriage to a Thai?

I suggest you look at this long on going topic for more info. https://aseannow.com/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/

 

[Flaxx]

I changed my extension of stay from working to based on marriage, I did not leave the country. I have been paying taxes for more than 3 consecutive years, but I have a gap of about 6 months without a work permit. 

@ubonjoe What do you think my chances are based on the above?

[hereforgood]

This is only my opinion I think they're very picky about getting giving these out to begin with so if you have any legitimate reason to not get it such as not having three consecutive years with the work permit I think they will probably enforce  it again only my opinion

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, Flaxx said:

@ubonjoe What do you think my chances are based on the above?

About zero.

Without a work permit you would of been working illegally for those 6 months unless you had another legal income you paid taxes for.

[Flaxx]

@ubonjoe I pay taxes on my yearly income, so I paid taxes for that year since I was working for half that year. For the period that I didn't have a work permit, I didn't work. But, the fact is still that I have paid taxes for 8 consecutive years. @hereforgoodSeems to confirm my concern that the gap of 6 months, without work permit, will be an issue. 

Many thanks for your answers. If someone has hands-on experience in dealing with a similar case, I would really like to hear about it. Is there anyone who has as a reference to official documentation that says that you need 3 years, consecutive period of work permit? 

Anyone that was rejected/approved, in a similar situation that I am in?
 

[skatewash]

You need to be working with a valid work permit for at least three consecutive years, paying taxes and earning a minimum income based on your nationality.  No gaps of any sort are allowed.  I think your new 3 year clock would have re-started from when you got your work permit and started working again.  Also, you can't apply and then stop working, you must continue working until you are granted citizenship which is not a fast or smooth process, so three years is in reality more than 3 years.  It's 3 years you need to be have been working with work permit, paying taxes, and earning above the minimum income established for your nationality, before they will allow you to apply.

Being married to a Thai, having a Thai child, speaking Thai fluently are all positives in your favor, but until you have the current and ongoing 3 consecutive years of working with no gap it's really a no go.  Unfortunately, what happened farther in the past than 3 years doesn't really help in the current situation regarding the working requirement.

This is an excellent resource for people getting Thai citizenship:  https://www.thaicitizenship.com/

Good luck!

Edited February 20, 2022 by skatewash

[Flaxx]

Many thanks @skatewash 

That confirms what I always thought was the case. Now I know that I can stop thinking about this for the next 1.5 year at least. 

[DKoehler]

Before you are entiteled to  apply for Thai citizenship you have to keep the permanent residence of Thailand for at least 5 years !

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, DKoehler said:

Before you are entiteled to  apply for Thai citizenship you have to keep the permanent residence of Thailand for at least 5 years !

Not if you are married to a Thai. That changed over a decade ago.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, DKoehler said:

Before you are entiteled to  apply for Thai citizenship you have to keep the permanent residence of Thailand for at least 5 years !

Not true

[david143]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes for 3 consecutive years to apply for Thai nationality.

Did you change the reason for your extension of stay (it is not a visa) from working to one based upon marriage or did you leave the country to apply for a non-o visa based upon marriage to a Thai?

I suggest you look at this long on going topic for more info. https://aseannow.com/topic/121353-story-of-my-thai-citizenship-application/

 

I was going to REFER him us in Chat
Thanks Admin

[Sydebolle]

You may (repeat MAY) apply for a permanent residency certificate after three continuous years in Thailand based on work and taxes paid, supporting Thai family members (i.e. your children with a Thai spouse) or by investment (not clear how much that reads). 
Once granted (which can take anything between 6 - 18 months) you will have a  further five years of PR status before you can apply for Thai citizenship. There you undergo a proper testing on your Thai language skills, singing the Thai national anthem, history, plenty of references and a reason, why you should become Thai.

I opted for the residence 34 years ago; never went for a Thai passport as the only difference is voting and land ownership. Having a second citizenship would impair my birthright citizenship in some part - hence I (as well as dozens of others I know) never went for a Thai passport. You pay taxes, irrespective of nationality, provided you are honest and do not cook the books. 

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

You may (repeat MAY) apply for a permanent residency certificate after three continuous years in Thailand based on work and taxes paid, supporting Thai family members (i.e. your children with a Thai spouse) or by investment (not clear how much that reads). 
Once granted (which can take anything between 6 - 18 months) you will have a  further five years of PR status before you can apply for Thai citizenship. There you undergo a proper testing on your Thai language skills, singing the Thai national anthem, history, plenty of references and a reason, why you should become Thai.

I opted for the residence 34 years ago; never went for a Thai passport as the only difference is voting and land ownership. Having a second citizenship would impair my birthright citizenship in some part - hence I (as well as dozens of others I know) never went for a Thai passport. You pay taxes, irrespective of nationality, provided you are honest and do not cook the books. 

If you are married to a Thai you can apply for Citizenship after three (3) years without ever getting Permanent Residency.  The cost of Permanent Residency exceeds by a not insignificant amount the cost of Citizenship.  I don't know your original country of citizenship so can't say you wouldn't "impair" your birthright citizenship.  However, many people seem to have dual citizenship without reporting impairment.  I know of several dual US-Thai citizens.  They have never mentioned any impairment.  Both of those countries recognize dual citizenship and more importantly they don't prohibit it.  There are multiple differences between Citizenship and Permanent Residence beyond voting and land ownership.  There are rules about maintaining your Permanent Residence that do not, of course, apply to Citizenship.  If someone is married to a Thai and their original citizenship country doesn't absolutely prohibit dual citizenship then I really don't see the advantage of Permanent Residency over Citizenship.

I highly recommend Chris Larkin's site on Permanent Residence and Citizenship.  It contains solid information about the process which Chris Larkin has been through and documented.  

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/

There is a lot of inaccurate, incorrect, and outdated information out there on this topic as well.

[Sydebolle]

20 hours ago, skatewash said:

If you are married to a Thai you can apply for Citizenship after three (3) years without ever getting Permanent Residency.  The cost of Permanent Residency exceeds by a not insignificant amount the cost of Citizenship.  I don't know your original country of citizenship so can't say you wouldn't "impair" your birthright citizenship.  However, many people seem to have dual citizenship without reporting impairment.  I know of several dual US-Thai citizens.  They have never mentioned any impairment.  Both of those countries recognize dual citizenship and more importantly they don't prohibit it.  There are multiple differences between Citizenship and Permanent Residence beyond voting and land ownership.  There are rules about maintaining your Permanent Residence that do not, of course, apply to Citizenship.  If someone is married to a Thai and their original citizenship country doesn't absolutely prohibit dual citizenship then I really don't see the advantage of Permanent Residency over Citizenship.

I highly recommend Chris Larkin's site on Permanent Residence and Citizenship.  It contains solid information about the process which Chris Larkin has been through and documented.  

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/

There is a lot of inaccurate, incorrect, and outdated information out there on this topic as well.

Noted. Most countries allow dual, triple etc. nationalities. With certain European countries though you can impair your birthright citizenship. Say, i.e., you are a naturalized Thai born in Germany with a German citizenship. After 30 years in Thailand with Thai spouse and dual nationality children you fall sick and need governmental support. The Germans will screen your welfare application and ultimately reject it on the base that you're also Thai, living in Thailand and spent a substantial part as well as the recent past of 30 years in Thailand - hence the Thai citizenship prevails. Question is, which country would do more for its citizen? 
In case of an evacuation = same story. The Swiss flew out all their nationals from Japan after the Fukushima incident without any fuss free of charge; they also provided airlifts out of Phuket back in 2004 after the Tsunami. As you have to decide, as what nationality you are in a country, it can make a difference. 

A Thai citizenship has little impact on taxation, a permanent PR gets work permits automatically and, as said, I still believe that apart from voting and land ownership there is no specific advantage. What I did not mention is, that if you want to own a business in the "protected" business cluster (known as Alien Business Law), then you must be Thai to be active in tourism, architecture and forwarding. This is for those who want to OWN such businesses, being employed in these businesses is possible for alien - with the necessary work permit! 

[skatewash]

6 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

Noted. Most countries allow dual, triple etc. nationalities. With certain European countries though you can impair your birthright citizenship. Say, i.e., you are a naturalized Thai born in Germany with a German citizenship. After 30 years in Thailand with Thai spouse and dual nationality children you fall sick and need governmental support. The Germans will screen your welfare application and ultimately reject it on the base that you're also Thai, living in Thailand and spent a substantial part as well as the recent past of 30 years in Thailand - hence the Thai citizenship prevails. Question is, which country would do more for its citizen? 
In case of an evacuation = same story. The Swiss flew out all their nationals from Japan after the Fukushima incident without any fuss free of charge; they also provided airlifts out of Phuket back in 2004 after the Tsunami. As you have to decide, as what nationality you are in a country, it can make a difference. 

A Thai citizenship has little impact on taxation, a permanent PR gets work permits automatically and, as said, I still believe that apart from voting and land ownership there is no specific advantage. What I did not mention is, that if you want to own a business in the "protected" business cluster (known as Alien Business Law), then you must be Thai to be active in tourism, architecture and forwarding. This is for those who want to OWN such businesses, being employed in these businesses is possible for alien - with the necessary work permit! 

As for impairment, I agree it's good to know how your original country will handle the issues you bring up.  I have never heard of similar issues with US-Thai dual citizens, but obviously that is something you would need to look into if it applies.

As for Permanent Residency versus Citizenship.  It's simply less expensive to obtain citizenship than it is permanent residence.  But perhaps the biggest reason is that once you obtain citizenship you don't have to do anything the rest of your life to maintain that status.  With Permanent Residency you do.  You have to renew every five years and you have to have special documentation when you travel outside of Thailand.  I'm referring to the "If successful what happens next?" section here as well as the following section on traveling with Permanent Residency:

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-thai-permanent-residence/

[Flaxx]

One significant reason to become a Thai citizen for me is the right to own land and owning 100% of a business. A different, more personal reason is that I have spent almost half my life in Thailand, and I am not planning on moving anywhere else at any time in the future (I am as confident as I can possibly be about this) so removing all visas, all "special rules" that I live under compared to my neighbors, would be really nice. 

[Sydebolle]

22 hours ago, skatewash said:

As for impairment, I agree it's good to know how your original country will handle the issues you bring up.  I have never heard of similar issues with US-Thai dual citizens, but obviously that is something you would need to look into if it applies.

As for Permanent Residency versus Citizenship.  It's simply less expensive to obtain citizenship than it is permanent residence.  But perhaps the biggest reason is that once you obtain citizenship you don't have to do anything the rest of your life to maintain that status.  With Permanent Residency you do.  You have to renew every five years and you have to have special documentation when you travel outside of Thailand.  I'm referring to the "If successful what happens next?" section here as well as the following section on traveling with Permanent Residency:

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-thai-permanent-residence/

It all boils down to what do you want/need. The five-yearly-reporting to the police is rubber-stamping, the endorsement/re-entry (valid for one year from issue date) again rubber-stamping. I did not travel anywhere over the last 30 months = nothing to do with stamping or paying fees. 

But it remains as individual as the person concerned; I consider many advantages with only one citizenship as far as my offshore banking, insurances and hopefully-never-to-be-used welfare is concerned. 

[skatewash]

26 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

It all boils down to what do you want/need. The five-yearly-reporting to the police is rubber-stamping, the endorsement/re-entry (valid for one year from issue date) again rubber-stamping. I did not travel anywhere over the last 30 months = nothing to do with stamping or paying fees. 

But it remains as individual as the person concerned; I consider many advantages with only one citizenship as far as my offshore banking, insurances and hopefully-never-to-be-used welfare is concerned. 

Granted it may be rubberstamping, as you say, but fail to do any of the rubberstamping when required and you lose your permanent residency.

 

That's not the case with citizenship.  No rubberstamping required at all.

 

Citizenship is also a considerably less expensive process than permanent residency.

 

§ď

[Sydebolle]

5 hours ago, skatewash said:

Granted it may be rubberstamping, as you say, but fail to do any of the rubberstamping when required and you lose your permanent residency.

 

That's not the case with citizenship.  No rubberstamping required at all.

 

Citizenship is also a considerably less expensive process than permanent residency.

 

§ď

Well, if you managed to get through the maze of obtaining a PR, then you're aware of not missing a deadline - preventive maintenance of bureaucracy issues ????