Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[heybruce]

54 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Pathetic. Bull back. How did Biden save Ukraine from being lost? He didn't. The Ukrainians did that!

 

Biden didn't "alert" any relevant parties that were not not already acutely aware of Putin's massing of troops near the border before invading. The Ukrainians were already fighting in the Donbass anyway. Biden stated the bleeding obvious about a month before the invasion but NATO and others were already very aware of this worst-case probability. 

 

Pathetic.  Are you that uninformed or attempting to rewrite history?

 

Zelensky himself didn't believe Russia would invade.  https://www.economist.com/europe/why-ukraines-president-is-talking-down-the-threat-from-russia/21807491

 

Western leaders also didn't believe it:

 

"FOR SEVERAL weeks, even as they raised the alarm about Russia’s unprecedented military build-up on Ukraine’s border, Western leaders and officials emphasised that Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, had not yet made a final decision."  https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/19/joe-biden-says-that-vladimir-putin-has-decided-to-invade-ukraine

 

However Ukraine was sufficiently worried to disperse troops and prepare for the "unexpected" attack, thanks to Biden's warnings:

 

"America’s innovation began before the war, with the unprecedented release of intelligence. Along with Britain, the Biden administration issued detailed, up-to-the-minute warnings about Russian troops massing on Ukraine’s borders, would-be provocations, the plan of attack and a blueprint for a puppet government. This robbed Mr Putin of the power to disorientate that served him so well in the seizure of Crimea in 2014."  https://www.economist.com/leaders/for-all-americas-success-in-helping-ukraine-hard-times-lie-ahead/21808338

 

It also resulted in a united western response to the invasion:

 

"U.S. officials and experts say that while the publication of Putin’s plans has failed to deter him, it has served to unite allies and partners to react in quick coordination and has primed domestic audiences to support imposing consequences." 

"This includes unity among the 27-nation bloc of the European Union, which convened two meetings in quick succession to discuss and vote on sanctions packages against Russia and Putin personally for invading Ukraine, as well as Moscow’s recognition as independent territories in Ukraine’s Donbas region. "   https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595916-us-employs-unusual-intel-strategy-to-counter-putin/

 

Now that I've supported my post with credible sources, I'm sure you will do the same.

 

Just kidding.  You won't.

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, transam said:

I am surprised you haven't provided links to the "France and Germany" thingy.....

I did it out of consideration for you, just that once, since I know that you are allergic to actual provable matters of fact. But once is enough.

 

How Trump Made War on Angela Merkel and Europe

The German Chancellor and other European leaders have run out of patience with the President.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europe

[Social Media]

 

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I did it out of consideration for you, just that once, since I know that you are allergic to actual provable matters of fact. But once is enough.

 

How Trump Made War on Angela Merkel and Europe

The German Chancellor and other European leaders have run out of patience with the President.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europe

Not to mention:

https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-summit-recap-trump-embarrassing-nobody-taking-seriously-2019-12?r=US&IR=T

https://www.businessinsider.com/18-photos-show-trump-humiliation-sulking-after-nato-incidents-2019-12?r=US&IR=T

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Has has been repeatedly pointed out elsewhere, it was the defeatist agreement signed by the Trump administration that led to the disaster in Afghanistan. As for Trump uniting NATO Nations. He repeatedly insulted that the leaders of the two most powerful countries in NATO: France and Germany.

You can parrot as much as you want. Biden had room to modify the withdrawal after the Taliban had already started to break the agreement. Unfortunately he modified it into a complete cluster flock. The Germans were the richest but one of the worst laggards w.r.t. defence spending and deserved everything they got - they're still hanging back on serious assistance to Ukraine today. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Pathetic.  Are you that uninformed or attempting to rewrite history?

 

Zelensky himself didn't believe Russia would invade.  https://www.economist.com/europe/why-ukraines-president-is-talking-down-the-threat-from-russia/21807491

 

Western leaders also didn't believe it:

 

"FOR SEVERAL weeks, even as they raised the alarm about Russia’s unprecedented military build-up on Ukraine’s border, Western leaders and officials emphasised that Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, had not yet made a final decision."  https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/19/joe-biden-says-that-vladimir-putin-has-decided-to-invade-ukraine

 

However Ukraine was sufficiently worried to disperse troops and prepare for the "unexpected" attack, thanks to Biden's warnings:

 

"America’s innovation began before the war, with the unprecedented release of intelligence. Along with Britain, the Biden administration issued detailed, up-to-the-minute warnings about Russian troops massing on Ukraine’s borders, would-be provocations, the plan of attack and a blueprint for a puppet government. This robbed Mr Putin of the power to disorientate that served him so well in the seizure of Crimea in 2014."  https://www.economist.com/leaders/for-all-americas-success-in-helping-ukraine-hard-times-lie-ahead/21808338

 

It also resulted in a united western response to the invasion:

 

"U.S. officials and experts say that while the publication of Putin’s plans has failed to deter him, it has served to unite allies and partners to react in quick coordination and has primed domestic audiences to support imposing consequences." 

"This includes unity among the 27-nation bloc of the European Union, which convened two meetings in quick succession to discuss and vote on sanctions packages against Russia and Putin personally for invading Ukraine, as well as Moscow’s recognition as independent territories in Ukraine’s Donbas region. "   https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595916-us-employs-unusual-intel-strategy-to-counter-putin/

 

Now that I've supported my post with credible sources, I'm sure you will do the same.

 

Just kidding.  You won't.

Your "credible sources" dated 5th, 19th, 25th Feb and, 26th March 2022 are all from non-military or non-gov sources. The last one, especially seeks to rewrite history and promote Biden as some kind of savior, way after the invasion was already fact.

 

The NATO community shares any relevant information in real-time anyway. 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

I did it out of consideration for you, just that once, since I know that you are allergic to actual provable matters of fact. But once is enough.

 

How Trump Made War on Angela Merkel and Europe

The German Chancellor and other European leaders have run out of patience with the President.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/how-trump-made-war-on-angela-merkel-and-europe

Or The President ran out of patience with the German Chancellor and other European leaders? Made war my a$$.

 

From your link: “What good is NATO if Germany is paying Russia billions of dollars for gas and energy? The U.S. is paying for Europe’s protection, then loses billions on Trade. Must pay 2% of GDP IMMEDIATELY, not by 2025.” What's not fair about that? And where is the sucking up to Russia in there?

 

And most of the European NATO members seem to be happy enough with their increased defence budgets now, don't they?

Edited February 24, 2023 by nauseus
+ last para

[nauseus]

41 minutes ago, candide said:

Not to mention:

https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-summit-recap-trump-embarrassing-nobody-taking-seriously-2019-12?r=US&IR=T

https://www.businessinsider.com/18-photos-show-trump-humiliation-sulking-after-nato-incidents-2019-12?r=US&IR=T

Not worth mentioning, true. I don't know how Trudeau can criticize anyone, really.

[Neeranam]

If the West, and Biden hadn't stuck their noses in, the war would be over. 

 

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If the West, and Biden hadn't stuck their noses in, the war would be over. 

 

You sound like you'd be happy if Ukraine just disappeared? 

[placeholder]

51 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You can parrot as much as you want. Biden had room to modify the withdrawal after the Taliban had already started to break the agreement. Unfortunately he modified it into a complete cluster flock. The Germans were the richest but one of the worst laggards w.r.t. defence spending and deserved everything they got - they're still hanging back on serious assistance to Ukraine today. 

How did the Taliban break the agreement?

 

[rudi49jr]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

If the West, and Biden hadn't stuck their noses in, the war would be over. 

 

Well, Ukraine would now have been Russian, that’s probably true. But the war would have been far from over, because Putin and his clique are not satisfied with just Ukraine, they have their eyes on a far bigger loot, they want the old USSR back, and all the Eastern Block states. 
Sticking your head in the sand is one way to go, but we have seen how that works out in the end. Remember Chamberlain in 1939? 

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Or The President ran out of patience with the German Chancellor and other European leaders? Made war my a$$.

 

From your link: “What good is NATO if Germany is paying Russia billions of dollars for gas and energy? The U.S. is paying for Europe’s protection, then loses billions on Trade. Must pay 2% of GDP IMMEDIATELY, not by 2025.” What's not fair about that? And where is the sucking up to Russia in there?

 

And most of the European NATO members seem to be happy enough with their increased defence budgets now, don't they?

Well, there was an agreement in place for Nato Nations to increase defense spending to 2% by 2025. You think it's OK for Trump to unilaterally demand and expect an agreement to be revised? This is the clown you think would be able to get other nations to agree to a unified response?

[placeholder]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your "credible sources" dated 5th, 19th, 25th Feb and, 26th March 2022 are all from non-military or non-gov sources. The last one, especially seeks to rewrite history and promote Biden as some kind of savior, way after the invasion was already fact.

 

The NATO community shares any relevant information in real-time anyway. 

 

You should take your complaints to the moderators if you believe that those sources are only "credible". Otherwise, yours is just a cheap and easy to dodge facts.

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You sound like you'd be happy if Ukraine just disappeared? 

Oh. 

 

Would Ukraine help Scotland if we were invaded by England? 

 

Doubt it. Freeloaders. 

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Well, Ukraine would now have been Russian, that’s probably true. But the war would have been far from over, because Putin and his clique are not satisfied with just Ukraine, they have their eyes on a far bigger loot, they want the old USSR back, and all the Eastern Block states. 
Sticking your head in the sand is one way to go, but we have seen how that works out in the end. Remember Chamberlain in 1939? 

It would have saved unnecessary deaths. 

Also, saved the rest of the world from recession/depression. 

China could now be involved. 

I like what Chamberlain did. 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

It would have saved unnecessary deaths. 

Also, saved the rest of the world from recession/depression. 

China could now be involved. 

I like what Chamberlain did. 

Occasionally Godwin's law doesn't apply. For example when someone believes that appeasing Hitler was a good idea. What makes that particularly ludicrous is that appeasing Hitler led to millions of deaths. Unless of course, you believe that a Nazi Europe was a good idea. I wouldn't put that past you.

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How did the Taliban break the agreement?

 

By continuing its association with Al Qaeda and not allowing Afghan girls to attend school. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taliban-has-kept-close-ties-al-qaeda-despite-promises-trump-n1221281

 

[nauseus]

25 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You should take your complaints to the moderators if you believe that those sources are only "credible". Otherwise, yours is just a cheap and easy to dodge facts.

Not worth complaining about really. You haven't provided any relevant "facts".

[nauseus]

27 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Oh. 

 

Would Ukraine help Scotland if we were invaded by England? 

 

Doubt it. Freeloaders. 

I'm not talking about assistance but rather obliteration. Would you be happy with that?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Your "credible sources" dated 5th, 19th, 25th Feb and, 26th March 2022 are all from non-military or non-gov sources. The last one, especially seeks to rewrite history and promote Biden as some kind of savior, way after the invasion was already fact.

 

The NATO community shares any relevant information in real-time anyway. 

 

My sources are dated weeks before and after Russia's invasion, and Economist news magazine is one of the world's most respected sources by those who wish to stay informed about global news.  These sources describe the situation at the time of the invasion.  You know, the time pertinent to this discussion.

 

I supported my claim with sources.  As predicted, you didn't.

Edited February 24, 2023 by heybruce

[stevenl]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

By continuing its association with Al Qaeda and not allowing Afghan girls to attend school. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taliban-has-kept-close-ties-al-qaeda-despite-promises-trump-n1221281

 

Your link shows Trump was played. It also shows Trump was in charge, he should have withdrawn from the deal. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by stevenl

[nauseus]

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, there was an agreement in place for Nato Nations to increase defense spending to 2% by 2025. You think it's OK for Trump to unilaterally demand and expect an agreement to be revised? This is the clown you think would be able to get other nations to agree to a unified response?

Well they did, didn't they?

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

By continuing its association with Al Qaeda and not allowing Afghan girls to attend school. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taliban-has-kept-close-ties-al-qaeda-despite-promises-trump-n1221281

 

If that's the case, then the Taliban broke its word during the Trump administration. So it was OK for Trump to ignore that but not Biden?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Well they did, didn't they?

They did what?

[heybruce]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

By continuing its association with Al Qaeda and not allowing Afghan girls to attend school. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taliban-has-kept-close-ties-al-qaeda-despite-promises-trump-n1221281

 

Yeah, why didn't Trump do something about that?  You know, renegotiate or back out of his peace deal?

 

Did you notice your source is dated March 2, 2020, when Trump still had almost a year left in office?

[placeholder]

Just now, heybruce said:

Yeah, why didn't Trump do something about that?  You know, renegotiate or back out of his peace deal?

 

Did you notice your source is dated March 2, 2020, when Trump still had almost a year left in office?

Some should send nauseus a petard to hoist himself by.

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm not talking about assistance but rather obliteration. Would you be happy with that?

We are helping Ukraine. 

 

 

[rudi49jr]

36 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

It would have saved unnecessary deaths. 

Also, saved the rest of the world from recession/depression. 

China could now be involved. 

I like what Chamberlain did. 

Classic victim blaming. Russia invaded Ukraine, didn’t they? And it would not have saved unnecessary deaths, on the contrary. I guess you are aware of what happened in Bucha? And what is happening in areas occupied by Russia? People are being raped, tortured and killed on a massive scale. Many in Russia believe that all Ukrainians should be killed. Sound familiar? Germany attempted to do the same with the Jews in WWII.

And those Ukrainian freeloaders, as you called them, are now fighting to keep Russia out of the rest of Europe, and they’re paying a very high price for that. A little more respect would be in order, IMO.

And you like what Chamberlain did? Seriously? Talk about someone who caused unnecessary deaths.

[rudi49jr]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

We are helping Ukraine. 

 

 

You just said the war would have been over if the West hadn’t stuck their nose in. Which would have meant the obliteration of Ukraine.