Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Hummin]

13 minutes ago, tgw said:

border disputes can't be a reason unless they are very major disputes, because almost every country has border disputes.

Turkey and Greece about Cyprus where UN forces controlling and secure the border where both countries is Nato members.  

more island disputes between Turkey and Greece

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/8/turkey-opens-new-dispute-over-sovereignty-of-east-aegean-islands

Edited April 19, 2022 by Hummin

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Turkey and Greece about Cyprus where UN forces controlling and secure the border where both countries is Nato members.  

Not sure what your point is. They were both members when Turkish forces partitioned Cyprus.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

6. States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.

 

and

 

17. As noted in Chapter 1, the resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm

That is if the nominated Country has claims on territories that are disputed , Finland do not have any claims to any disputed lands . The Finland /Russia border is fully recognized by all 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That is if the nominated Country has claims on territories that are disputed , Finland do not have any claims to any disputed lands . The Finland /Russia border is fully recognized by all 

What excuse would Russia have to invade Finland if the territories are not in dispute? Any invasion would put them into dispute.

Edited April 19, 2022 by ozimoron

[tgw]

I hope Ukrainians undertake major construction work to fortify key areas.

 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not sure what your point is. They were both members when Turkish forces partitioned Cyprus.

The conflict is all the way back to Ottaman empire, where Greece took them back. It was just an example that becoming member of Nato is still possible

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I think an invasion or any military attack would qualify as a major dispute.

Not dispute in that sense , dispute in the sense that two Countries both claim the same piece of land , like the land between China and India . 

[ozimoron]

As governments and social media companies have moved to suppress Russia’s state media and the disinformation it spreads about the war in Ukraine, the Kremlin’s diplomats are stepping up to do the dirty work.

Russian embassies and consulates around the world are prolifically using Facebook, Twitter and other platforms to deflect blame for atrocities while seeking to undermine the international coalition supporting Ukraine.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-covid-technology-health-business-628cf047adf9fde93c0d7f820e46f8e4

[Meat Pie 47]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

As governments and social media companies have moved to suppress Russia’s state media and the disinformation it spreads about the war in Ukraine, the Kremlin’s diplomats are stepping up to do the dirty work.

Russian embassies and consulates around the world are prolifically using Facebook, Twitter and other platforms to deflect blame for atrocities while seeking to undermine the international coalition supporting Ukraine.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-covid-technology-health-business-628cf047adf9fde93c0d7f820e46f8e4

How come they can post on western media like facebook I thought is is banned

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, Meat Pie 47 said:

How come they can post on western media like facebook I thought is is banned

Facebook is banned in China 

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Facebook is banned in China 

Maybe embassies have an exemption?

[Meat Pie 47]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Maybe embassies have an exemption?

Yes I had some Russian contacts and none of them is on line anymore

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Isn't the SAS on the ground teaching Ukrainian soldiers advanced weapons.

It has long been accepted that training is different than fighting.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Putin has been stating for years that he wouldn't allow Ukraine to join NATO and Ukraine was getting closer to NATO and becoming affiliated with E.U/NATO .

   Putin has also regularly asked for ethnic Russians in Ukraine to have more protection .

So the Russian invasion of Ukraine wasn't completely unexpected and Putin can say he was provoked into responding by Ukraine's growing alliance with the E.U/NATO

Russia's invasion wasn't completely unexpected because the US and UK described his plans in detail before he implemented them.

 

Putin has never explained why countries with an aggressive, bullying neighbor should not be allowed to join a defensive alliance to protect themselves from the bad neighbor.  Now Putin has committed the ultimate act of a bad neighbor, making NATO membership more attractive than ever.

 

Russia's clams that ethnic Russians in Ukraine need to be protected is in there with his claim that Ukraine's Jewish President is a Nazi.

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Finland considering to joining NATO isnt a indication that Russia wants to invade Finland .

A Country deciding  on whether to join or not join NATO bears no connection with Russian intentions .

That just shows that Finland is concerned about Russia invading Finland  , that doesnt show that Russia has any intention of invading Finland 

Gee, why would Finland worry about a Russian invasion?

 

History and current events, perhaps?

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, he's a Conservative who doesn't want to go to war 

The UK is one of many countries providing weapons to Ukraine.  Haven't you been accusing those who want to supply weapons as being war mongers?

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If Finland joined NATO , then that would be a strategic threat to Russia , so to respond to that strategic threat, Russia would put more weapons in the location .

   But that isnt a threat to Finland . 

Like Russia isnt threatening to attack Finland or anything 

Country's joining NATO, a defensive alliance, is not a threat to Russia.

 

Country's joining NATO is a threat to Putin's plans to expand the Russian empire.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, quite a few Left wingers want a war with Russia,  or a confrontation at least .

Right wingers typically want to keep out of the war between Russia and Ukraine and let them both get on with it 

Ironic, isn't it.  During the Cold War it was the Right that used the logic of the "domino theory" to argue that the Russian Empire, then known as the USSR, must be prevented from dominating other countries.

 

In fact, until Donald Trump the Republican Party of the US was on record advocating strong positions against Russian aggression.  Now the Republican Party has become a RINO.

 

BTW, identify the Left wingers who want a war or confrontation with Russia.  Explain how their positions are different from Boris Johnson's, who you consider a conservative.

[Bkk Brian]

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

This needs to be confirmed yet but its not looking good:

 

Russia has just bombed another large hospital in Mariupol. 300 people feared dead. A new, larger bomb was used. Explosion was heard 100km away.

Correspondent from the Economist:

 

Spoke to Svyatoslav Palamar, deputy commander of Azov regiment, part of Ukrainian forces holed up inside Azovstal steel plant in #Mariupol. Confirms was an airstrike on the hospital inside the plant today, with “many people” dead and “many under rubble.” No exact numbers (1)

 

Says soldiers ready to leave Mariupol — if allowed to leave with their own weapons. “We can’t hold on indefinitely. We’re ready to leave‚” he says. But without those guarantees, the Ukrainians will “fight to the end.” (2)

 

There are “hundreds” of civilians still sheltering there. Many are scared to accept Russian guarantees of safe passage because of the “rape, pillage and murder” that has happened in Mariupol, the fighter says. (3)

 

Some criticism for Ukr command, which has “left them one on one with the enemy,” which vastly outnumbers them. “They are concerned with a few rockets, when we have everything thrown at us. We can’t do anything.” (4)

 

The soldier made an urgent appeal to international community to at the very least ensure a humanitarian corridor to civilians, the injured, and the dead — “so they can be buried with honour.” (5)

[Bkk Brian]

BREAKING: The Pentagon says that Ukraine has "received additional fighter aircraft" from countries other than the U.S. and "additional aircraft parts" that will allow Ukraine to get more planes in the air

 

OTTAWA, April 19 (Reuters) - Canada will send heavy artillery to Ukraine as that country pushes back against intensifying Russian attacks in its Eastern region, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said on Tuesday, promising more details to come soon.

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Facebook is banned in China 

Please stay on topic

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, tgw said:

my opinion is that the best chances of avoiding or at least postponing WW3 for a long time is to stop Putin right now. Giving him Donbass would be a win for Putin.

Not only would this encourage Putin and his successors to pursue that kind of tactics (hello Transnistria, the rest of Georgia, Kasakstan, etc. ) but other countries will take note of the West's weakness and act accordingly (hello China in Taiwan, hello North Korea ...).

 

So Putin needs to be stopped now, he must not get Donbass, not pass go, not collect 200$. Only the go to jail card is for him.

 

And although I'm scared f*ckless, I increasingly think that the West should risk it.

I've asked before, but how many western bodies are acceptable to to stop Putin in Ukraine? All of them have families to grieve.

 

WW3 will, IMO, happen regardless of Ukraine, and is more likely to involve a different country than Russia.

IMO it's always been going to happen, but as to when I have no idea at present.

Edited April 19, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Man, we're going around in circles.  The point is Russia won't attack NATO assets because they know what the consequences will be.  They're raining missiles down on Ukraine because there is no consequences for their actions.  NATO can change that.

Is it not true that if US or British military units launch missiles against Russia in the Ukraine they will become legitimate targets? IMO they would.

As I see it if they get involved Putin has to respond, and so it goes to WW3 and nuclear winter where we all die.

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Please stay on topic

I was replying to a poster who thought that Facebook was banned in Russia and I corrected him and told him that Facebook was banned in China (and not Russia) , so it was indeed on-topic

   Once again, had you read all the thread instead of just the last page , you would have know that .

Would you like me to give you the highlights of what people have posted since you last logged on ?

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Are you 100% sure that if there was a Russia/Ukraine peace treaty, that Putin wouldn't violate it?  Come on. 

 

As tgw suggested, if you're really concerned about a World War, stopping Putin now may be the best option. 

All of us being dead would certainly stop Putin.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, heybruce said:

World leaders haven't got involved in distant wars in which thousands were slaughtered and it wasn't clear there was a viable "good guy" side to support. 

 

This is a war in which a corrupt autocrat is attempting to eliminate a democratic nation on NATO's borders. 

but, it's not in NATO. NATO has no business fighting in non NATO countries.

If countries want to create an army to fight in Ukraine they can do so, but it can't be NATO.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Russia has already made a big miscalculated error on how much resistance Ukraine would be capable of but I get the feeling that people here forget Russia is a nuclear power. 

That is the elephant in the room.

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I was replying to a poster who thought that Facebook was banned in Russia and I corrected him and told him that Facebook was banned in China (and not Russia) , so it was indeed on-topic

   Once again, had you read all the thread instead of just the last page , you would have know that .

Would you like me to give you the highlights of what people have posted since you last logged on ?

Wrong again..............

 

Russia bans Facebook and Instagram under ‘extremism’ law

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

The US will gob off and gob off in support etc etc but will still watch as Ukraine is decemated by Russia.

More like Afghanistan under the Russians IMO. Send them enough weapons to keep the Russians tied down.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Not to mention those posters who are appalled that a democratic elected Ukrainian Government are bring attacked by a non democratically elected Russian Government/Army  and there may be a military coup to replace the Government . 

   They are shocked and appalled by this...........................and happily living in Thailand .

Terrible that the Russian Army may overthrow an elected leader .

"Terrible that the Russian Army may overthrow an elected leader" Elected how? The last opponent to Putin is now in prison. Before that he was poisoned with novichak and only managed to survive because he made it to the West. The chief previous opponent was murdered.  Journalists who dig too deep have been murdered and/or physically attacked.. Independent news outlets have been driven into submission or non-existence. Do you actually believe that under such conditions an election is meaningful?