Ownership of land vs house

[NorthernRyland]

I read at https://www.thethailandlife.com/buying-land-thailand that foreigners can not own land, even if as a shared marital asset as you may/will be required to declare the land was not purchased with your money, thus even in the instance of divorce you can not liquidate the land and reclaim some of the value. That seems unnecessary if their goal is to merely protect land for Thai nationals but very well.

 

However it's also said that foreigners can own houses, so that begs the question (if true), what happens if you buy land and build a house in your spouses name and then divorce at some point down the road? Can you at least liquidate the house and reclaim some of the money there?

[KhunLA]

Maybe ... depends if you have any paperwork for your protection.

 

Some options, put a loan against the land, usufruct, POA, pre-nup ....

OR RENT. instead of land/house 'purchase'

Your money, you decide, or it may end up simply being a gift

 

If not mutual agreement on paper, you may want to consider walking away from that relationship.

Edited March 18, 2022 by KhunLA

[Sparktrader]

Own a unit not land. Poor investments mostly unless Bangkok.

 

Cheap rent. Why buy? Cause some sheila wants your $$$

 

Most women are gold diggers.

[Sparktrader]

This woman who wants you to buy land and house wants your $. You will be most likely flicked away after a few years.

[impulse]

If you're kicking around the idea, this is a good place to come for input.  But you'll often get 2 diametrically opposed answer from many equally credible posters.

 

Before you pull the trigger, consult an attorney.  Thai laws exist within an ecology that makes tiny details matter.  Trying to decipher them from an online source is risky.

 

I'm kind of curious about the idea of signing a usufruct with your wife.  I thought, for legal purposes, you and the missus are considered a "family unit" as opposed to 2 separate entities, and that would be like signing an agreement with yourself.  Easy to sign, tough to enforce if your Dr Jekyll disagrees with your Mr Hyde. 

 

Maybe someone will weigh in.

Edited March 18, 2022 by impulse

[ezzra]

Foreigners can legally own land and other dwelling by forming a simple commercial entity Comanche whereby they have full rights on said properties...

[NorthernRyland]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Some options, put a loan against the land, usufruct, POA, pre-nup ....

Thanks. I also read these may not hold up in court but I guess I need to consult a lawyer to be sure. My only intention was to hopefully be able to recover 50% of anything and force a liquidation in case of divorce or early death.

[NorthernRyland]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

If you're kicking around the idea, this is a good place to come for input.  But you'll often get 2 diametrically opposed answer from many equally credible posters.

 

Before you pull the trigger, consult an attorney.  Thai laws exist within an ecology that makes tiny details matter.  Trying to decipher them from an online source is risky.

 

Yeah I'll probably do that but I was curious what people here say.

 

Since people always mention it: I'm thinking of building because there is literally nothing to rent here except a crappy 5x8 wooden house (the mountains outside of Chiang Mai).

[NorthernRyland]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

Foreigners can legally own land and other dwelling by forming a simple commercial entity Comanche whereby they have full rights on said properties...

I haven't investigated this much but it sounds too easy. The idea is YOU have the <50% share and thus your partner can sell the property out from underneath you right? Even if not that I assume said parter wants a cut of something.

 

Btw what about this https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/US-Thai Amity.php? My brother actually lives in Bangkok and legally owns a business in his name but I don't recall him having any 2 mil baht investment capital or anything like that. I think this applies to land also. I'll call him today and ask.

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thanks. I also read these may not hold up in court but I guess I need to consult a lawyer to be sure. My only intention was to hopefully be able to recover 50% of anything and force a liquidation in case of divorce or early death.

Forcing the liquidation would be the hardest part, along with getting anything court ordered at any kind of settlement.  Winning a judgement is easier than receiving compensation.

1. she or he, would actually have to have the funds to give you, or a buyer.

Our last house took 3 years to sell.

2. what's to say she or he, doesn't sell it for far less than actual value

Like to her or his sibling for 100 baht ????

 

If you're skeptical of 'investing' in the relationship, and already thinking 'what if', then rent for quite some time.  Besides, gives you a chance to see if Thailand, or area planning to live in, is for you long term, as it isn't for many people.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

Foreigners can legally own land and other dwelling by forming a simple commercial entity Comanche whereby they have full rights on said properties...

If a legal company, striving towards profits, not a piece of paper in a folder in the top drawer of your desk.

 

When said partner in company / wife, tells judge it was a farce to begin with, and judge null & voids the company, or threatens 'fraud' ... you're back to square one.

 

Or you happen to have a primo spot, and local politician, connected, wants it, and realizes your company is a scam, and has his buddy null & void it, confiscates it.

 

In a foreign country, do try to do things legally, especially if involve larger investments.  "Legally" is a stretch if going into involves fraud.

[NorthernRyland]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

1. she or he, would actually have to have the funds to give you, or a buyer.

Our last house took 3 years to sell.

2. what's to say she or he, doesn't sell it for far less than actual value

Like to her or his sibling for 100 baht ????

yeah this would have to happen in good faith  but I thought a court could also order them to sell the house on the open market given some reasonable amount of time. I'm just trying to figure out much I can expect to lose in the worst case scenario.

 

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

If you're skeptical of 'investing' in the relationship, and already thinking 'what if', then rent for quite some time.  Besides, gives you a chance to see if Thailand, or area planning to live in, is for you long term, as it isn't for many people.  

Good advice. This is my girl friend of nearly 10 years now and we're getting married here soon since it was just too hard to live here otherwise.  My feeling on this right now is I should do my due diligence to figure out the worst case scenario but it isn't worth planning my life around that.

 

Thailand really isn't *that* cheap and even building something simple is at least 60k USD right now. That's not enough to ruin a life or anything but it's nothing something you want to just throw away either. ????

 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Good advice. This is my girl friend of nearly 10 years now and we're getting married here soon since it was just too hard to live here otherwise.  

 

Thailand really isn't *that* cheap and even building something simple is at least 60k USD right now. That's not enough to ruin a life or anything but it's nothing something you want to just throw away either. ????

 

Is this a 10 yr living together here, or long distance, couple months a year visiting relationship ?  "too hard to live here otherwise" ... I'm sensing long distance, then definite rent for a year or 2, as can be eye opening, both for the relationship & living in Thailand, especially the N / smog season.

 

If living together here all that time, then I'd think no worries.  My present wife, we lived together 8 years before making it legal at the amphur office.  I always put usurfruct on our purchases, but more protection for me if she craps out, not out of lack of trust.

 

Getting married, and any conversation about sin sot, may give you an indication of her 'priorities', and attitude toward 'yours, hers, our' money. ????  If her 2nd marriage, then no Thai would consider a sin sot, or if she already has kid (s).   

 

Congrats BTW.

 

 

[NorthernRyland]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Is this a 10 yr living together here, or long distance, couple months a year visiting relationship ?  "too hard to live here otherwise" ... I'm sensing long distance, then definite rent for a year or 2, as can be eye opening, both for the relationship & living in Thailand, especially the N / smog season.

No I've been here living with her 10 months per year since I go back to Colorado in the summer while my parents are still alive and well. I've been surviving on long term tourists visas for years but as many know that's basically over at this point. COVID really sealed the deal also since I got stuck in CO for 12 months because I didn't have a proper visa.

 

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

If living together here all that time, then I'd think no worries.  My present wife, we lived together 8 years before making it legal at the amphur office.  I always put usurfruct on our purchases, but more protection for me if she craps out, not out of lack of trust.

This is the first time hearing about usurfructs so I need to look into that. What does that get you?

 

I've just heard of so many nasty divorces I'm paranoid now. Basically everyone I knew growing up got divorced (my parents also) and then endless stories from expats in Thailand with Western wives then finally with marriages to Thai women over 10 years their junior which fall apart (which isn't shocking honestly).

 

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

Getting married, and any conversation about sin sot, may give you an indication of her 'priorities', and attitude toward 'yours, hers, our' money. ????  If her 2nd marriage, then no Thai would consider a sin sot, or if she already has kid (s).   

I'm gonna have to buy her dad some gold something for 60k baht but she says my bank statement for the 400k in the bank will be good enough. Getting off easy I guess? The wedding itself plus a ring is adding up to over 100k now which I'm not happy about but it could be worse. Honestly a big wedding is foolish waste of money if you ask me.

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

No I've been here living with her 10 months per year since I go back to Colorado in the summer while my parents are still alive and well. I've been surviving on long term tourists visas for years but as many know that's basically over at this point. COVID really sealed the deal also since I got stuck in CO for 12 months because I didn't have a proper visa.

 

This is the first time hearing about usurfructs so I need to look into that. What does that get you?

 

I've just heard of so many nasty divorces I'm paranoid now. Basically everyone I knew growing up got divorced (my parents also) and then endless stories from expats in Thailand with Western wives then finally with marriages to Thai women over 10 years their junior which fall apart (which isn't shocking honestly).

 

I'm gonna have to buy her dad some gold something for 60k baht but she says my bank statement for the 400k in the bank will be good enough. Getting off easy I guess? The wedding itself plus a ring is adding up to over 100k now which I'm not happy about but it could be worse. Honestly a big wedding is foolish waste of money if you ask me.

Not long distance relationship ... so pretty safe.  

 

Usufruct allows you to live there, and can't be sold without your signature, voiding the document.  In case of her untimely passing, I think.  Law says has to be sold or transferred out, within 1 year, to whoever you would trust to hold in their name.  Being husband, inheritance line puts you at top, though technically, can't own land.  Bit of a Catch 22 with land.

 

Don't think a real issue, or anyone would notice, unless some unscrupulous person wanted to take from you.  At tax time, orbator would obviously notice, when paying land tax.  So just something to keep in back of your mind.  If having a trustworthy kid, add to land paper, as my daughter will be added to our new build, JIC as I'm 20+ yrs senior to wife, and should cr ap out well before her.

 

Wife has 8 siblings, and I trust them all actually, most having more money than us any way, though if passed to one of them, and they died, possible, since she's the baby of the clan, then someone else would be in control.  Maybe make a bad financial decision, using land/house as collateral for a loan against it.  I prefer to be in control, and usufruct protects you against that.

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

but it's nothing something you want to just throw away either.

you have been with her 10 years... and it is not that much money - - might you consider it a gift to her? if you can afford it?

 

takes all the worry out of it... through the years, I have been gifting the family in this manner and since I can walk away tomorrow, I have no regrets... 

 

ps - cost me in USA too... it's not just a Thailand thing... but people do find lease agreements and mortgages and such that probably afford some protection... 

[RafPinto]

Go for a transportable one.

Usufruct, right. If she wants you out, would you want to stay in a village where nobody would like to see you any longer?

[rott]

Our (her) house is on temple land, a form of leasehold agreement which I understand gives the right of residency in perpetuity.

 

I am told that it could be transferred from her name to mine and the temple would have no objection to doing this.

 

Never saw the point in doing it, did make a couple of mild enquiries with vaguely discouraging responses. A rare case I am sure. 

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Can you at least liquidate the house and reclaim some of the money there?

Bank owns most of the home I live in.

If she wants me to live elsewhere, that saves me 9kbht/month, and I can get a younger woman next time.

 

What, you've paid cash up front for a house in a woman's name whom the bank doesn't trust with their money?

Edited March 19, 2022 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

The wedding itself plus a ring is adding up to over 100k now which I'm not happy about but it could be worse. Honestly a big wedding is foolish waste of money if you ask me.

There is no culture of exchanging rings in Thailand ...... so don't buy her one.

[NorthernRyland]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

There is no culture of exchanging rings in Thailand ...... so don't buy her one.

that's up for debate as I've learned! I said the same thing but it seems it's already taken hold with some people. Like most of us I really resent the whole sin sod, rings, big weddings. etc.. but it's difficult to find women who agree.

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

There is no culture of exchanging rings in Thailand ...... so don't buy her one.

Yes there is, in modern Thailand, not the Thailand of the 1950s, so buy her one.  She will expect it,  quite rightly. 

[NorthernRyland]

46 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

you have been with her 10 years... and it is not that much money - - might you consider it a gift to her? if you can afford it?

 

takes all the worry out of it... through the years, I have been gifting the family in this manner and since I can walk away tomorrow, I have no regrets... 

 

You can go that route but I don't think that's very fair. I know the law is against is us here but the women should be on our side enough to understand that _at least_ 50% is fair considering this is 100% our money. Even is she reneges later on she should at least profess to have some sense of fairness.

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

that's up for debate as I've learned! I said the same thing but it seems it's already taken hold with some people. Like most of us I really resent the whole sin sod, rings, big weddings. etc.. but it's difficult to find women who agree.

You don't have to get married.

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

Yes there is, in modern Thailand, not the Thailand of the 1950s, so buy her one.  She will expect it,  quite rightly. 

Odd how everything that gives them more money quickly becomes 'Thai culture'.

If she wants 'modern', I'd buy the ring and forget the sinsot.

[1FinickyOne]

59 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

everything that gives them more money quickly becomes 'Thai culture'.

that is everywhere - marriage brings a feeling of entitlement to ladies... 

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

yeah this would have to happen in good faith  but I thought a court could also order them to sell the house on the open market given some reasonable amount of time. I'm just trying to figure out much I can expect to lose in the worst case scenario.

 

Good advice. This is my girl friend of nearly 10 years now and we're getting married here soon since it was just too hard to live here otherwise.  My feeling on this right now is I should do my due diligence to figure out the worst case scenario but it isn't worth planning my life around that.

 

Thailand really isn't *that* cheap and even building something simple is at least 60k USD right now. That's not enough to ruin a life or anything but it's nothing something you want to just throw away either. ????

 

don't buy/invest on anything that you can't afford to lose

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

I don't think that's very fair.

my ex-wife in USA did not think 75% to her was fair... she agreed to it but thought I was cheating her... women have a sense of entitlement... 

 

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

she should at least profess to have some sense of fairness.

surely she does, it is just different than yours... you have 100% of the opportunity in life, you can return home and make decent money... she cannot, that's not fair, is it? You might be her best shot at a decent standard of living... that's not fair either, is it? 

 

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

Like most of us I really resent the whole sin sod, rings, big weddings. etc.. but it's difficult to find women who agree.

the sin sod is a Thai custom - not just for farang... it is a gift to the family for raising a lovely lady that you will abscond with... my wife understood that diamonds are a big loss of money- gold is practical, easily converted. And we had a huge wedding in her parent's house and all the ladies did the cooking together... total cost was 20,000 baht for maybe 200 people... but we did a village wedding, big party, no paper [but for the money to the parents which I was pleased to give] - but that was 20+ years ago.

 

But, you don't have to get married or even continue to know this lady... as I have stated earlier, I put everything here in Thailand, in my wife's name - and have for a long time. It gives her security and makes her feel good and proud. I want that for my wife... we have no usurfructs or any other agreements. If someone is so staunchly on the side of you having a good life, then most likely they won't dump you, but, I have always told her just give me 24 hours to pack my stuff... 

 

sharing should be a nice thing - I hope you work it out... 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

you've paid cash up front for a house in a woman's name whom the bank doesn't trust with their money?

All the more a good deed... 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

Keep as much as you possibly can in your own name. It is common practice for foreigners to “buy” land on a 30 year lease, which is renewable twice. You just need a good lawyer / solicitor, to construct a fairly simple lease agreement.

 

The sellers usually agree because they have nothing to lose, in fact it is to their advantage. They get the agreed price for the land, and theoretically, after 90 years the land will revert to them, or whoever has inherited their estate. You can then build the house in your own name and have the land in your name albeit on a 30 year renewable lease.

 

Safest way to protect yourself, you can have a Thai Last Will & Testament written leaving everything to your wife, if you so wish.

 

Good luck