Opinion: American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, vandeventer said:

I am from planet earth ,where are you from?

I am from a planet where there are things called Facts. These rather quaint entities are readily available to anyone.

 

Even you, should you desire, can access GDP data going back decades. You can see the REALITY that 45's performance was mediocre at best. Before Covid hit, GDP growth under him was worse than 71% of all Quarters since the end of WWII. After he mishandled Covid so badly and he---like EVERY Republican POTUS since Lincoln---presided over the start of a Recession, his performance fell even lower.

 

The jobs numbers and UE rate are collected and published monthly by the BLS division of the Dept of Labor. If you access those FACTS, you see that even Pres Obama's job growth was much higher than under 45.

 

The National Debt---factoring in ALL debt and obligations---is also readily available. When Pres Obama left office, is was around $19.4 trillion. That is the total amount of debt over 240 years of the US' existence. When 45 left office, it was $26.5 trillion. GDP growth was substantially below that $7 trillion figure, so during his single term things were wildly inefficient debt based profligacy....like your neighbor looking wealthy with his new Ford F-150 and Bass boat not because he earned more, but just max'd out his credit cards.

 

Just because 45 repeatedly spouted lies and exaggerations doesn't make them true, anymore than him claiming his condo is 30,000 sq feet and worth $300 million makes a 10,000 square foot condo grow, or as his CFO said of his condo's value, 'give or take $200 million'.

 

It doesn't take Columbus or Lewis and Clark to take a look at the IQ Bell Curve, move a few standard deviations to the left of the mean, and realize one has landed in trumpistan.

[vandeventer]

23 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I am from a planet where there are things called Facts. These rather quaint entities are readily available to anyone.

 

Even you, should you desire, can access GDP data going back decades. You can see the REALITY that 45's performance was mediocre at best. Before Covid hit, GDP growth under him was worse than 71% of all Quarters since the end of WWII. After he mishandled Covid so badly and he---like EVERY Republican POTUS since Lincoln---presided over the start of a Recession, his performance fell even lower.

 

The jobs numbers and UE rate are collected and published monthly by the BLS division of the Dept of Labor. If you access those FACTS, you see that even Pres Obama's job growth was much higher than under 45.

 

The National Debt---factoring in ALL debt and obligations---is also readily available. When Pres Obama left office, is was around $19.4 trillion. That is the total amount of debt over 240 years of the US' existence. When 45 left office, it was $26.5 trillion. GDP growth was substantially below that $7 trillion figure, so during his single term things were wildly inefficient debt based profligacy....like your neighbor looking wealthy with his new Ford F-150 and Bass boat not because he earned more, but just max'd out his credit cards.

 

Just because 45 repeatedly spouted lies and exaggerations doesn't make them true, anymore than him claiming his condo is 30,000 sq feet and worth $300 million makes a 10,000 square foot condo grow, or as his CFO said of his condo's value, 'give or take $200 million'.

 

It doesn't take Columbus or Lewis and Clark to take a look at the IQ Bell Curve, move a few standard deviations to the left of the mean, and realize one has landed in trumpistan.

You Dems. are all the same, do you really think Biden is doing a good job? Yes there is plenty of jobs in the USA because nobody wants to work ,you get paid more for staying at home, and the GDP is over 31 trillion with one year of this great leader, so give us all a break and move on.

[relax33]

20 hours ago, humbug said:

For those on here who still don't appreciate how far back goes the influence of the Chinese in Thailand,

Thai Chinese - Wikipedia

Read the Second paragraph of Wikipedia 's take on The Thai Chinese n you will see not only how far but more importantly how High Chinese Influence reaches up ..
No prize for guessing here  ...

[Isaan sailor]

11 minutes ago, vandeventer said:

You Dems. are all the same, do you really think Biden is doing a good job? Yes there is plenty of jobs in the USA because nobody wants to work ,you get paid more for staying at home, and the GDP is over 31 trillion with one year of this great leader, so give us all a break and move on.

Just to weigh in…inflation in USA now at a 40-year high.  The administration has foolishly declared war on the oil industry. And we have open borders for everyone except the Cubans (who don’t tend to vote Democrat).

[relax33]

19 hours ago, humbug said:

Chinese society is against rule of law, rule of law gives fairness, Chinese society wants keep its antiquated social class system which is confucism based on the older aryan class systems, this means greed and corruptuon is key, the power struggles in China is more about not letting businesses become more powerful than the state, or control political state holders, so the state becomes the owner of the business, this means thai/chinese businesses know the risk reward, knowing they are always risks with gangster regimes with no rule of law

Sorry, think you have mistaken The Chinese for their government.
It's often important to separate the deeds of the government from the citizens of a country..
The citizens are usually innocent n blameless n what the government does is often not reflective of the masses ..
For instance, many US citizens did not want the US to be involved in  wars in Iraq, Vietnam n Afghanistan n  many blame the present govt for not acting decisively to prevent the Ukrainian war  in the first place  ..

[Walker88]

5 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Yes, look at US today under Biden....+6.9% GDP in 2021 4th Q....more jobs created in a single year ever....UE down to lowest in decades....job openings everywhere....deficit down $350 billion in FY2021 vs 45's last year, and OMB expects upwards of $1 trillion lower in FY2022...NATO now a unified force....US respected again....US rejoins Paris Climate Accords

 

45 was a disaster. WORST economic performance in GDP terms in 40 years.....even before Covid GDP was in bottom 29% of all quarters since the end of WWII....45 ran up $7 trillion in National Debt in 4 years (a 37% increase over the US' first 240 year total)...45 preached such absurdities as injecting disinfectant or using horse de-wormers for Covid....45 actually tried to overturn US democracy and egged on the terror attack of 6 January (even the FBI Dir appointed by 45 referred to 6 Jan as a Terrorist Attack)....45 pulled US from TPP, which handed Asia to China

 

Pres Obama entered office with 10.4% UE and gave 45 4.8% UE. 45 left Pres Biden 6.9% UE.

 

45=DISASTER

This isn't golf....lowest score doesn't win.

 

And as it turned out, the CBO was too optimistic, not factoring in just how bad Covid would hurt growth, so 45 was even worse.

 

Kind of funny that Jimmy Carter was 3x higher.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Walker88

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, puck2 said:

The same happened to the Chinese people here in Thailand. That's one important reason why they feel more connected to China('s dictatorship) than to the Western countries. It's not an issue of brain, but of the origin of the family. You will find this confirmed in the USA.

 

Therefore it's not „the Western arrogance“,but family history, why here is a Chinese influence,

Exactly. Why would thousands of Thais flock to the Chinese temples around the country if they felt little for their historical background.

My wife is also second generation Chinese and the whole family along with nearly all our neighbours observe both Thai and Chinese traditions.

Around here there is a  multitude of Chinese graveyards, some stretch as far as the eye can see and at festival time pre pandemic they became canvas cities full of relatives, many coming from China.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, humbug said:

you have to admire the rules based order of the west, and how it created such wealth around the world, no way China can compete with that

Rubbish, what on earth makes you think the people in the west are happier than the people in China. From what I saw the majority had a better standard of life than the majority in the UK.

It has never been proven that goldfish are unhappy.

 

[ATLShawn]

China has, and will continue with little regard and only measured constraint, to use all the tools at their disposal to coerce and eventually encompass / manage / rule all areas within their sphere of influence in spite of Western-oriented nations. Those geographic areas beyond Asia will be used for political and trade reasons. There is only one way to stop China:  strength (political, financial, and a large military buildup).

 

Blame Obama (I thought he was foreign diplomatic idiot and his economic policies sucked), Trump (egotistical mouth, complete narcissist but good economic policies) and general western tendencies to pay little attention to certain areas of the globe for prolonged periods.  The West would have been better advised decades long ago to forge lasting, strong BILATERAL diplomatic/economic ties in all of Asia to counter China... but instead languished and China did what China does best... the US administrations as far back as Bush junior have enabled China: create man made islands that would "never" be militarized, build financial ties with countries world wide as the self-absorbed West focused on the number 1 threat of "climate change", massively invest and grow internal industrialization (they don't give a single f*$k about climate change), monopolize important vertical sectors (technology manufacturing, battery production, etc), and strongly invest in military modernization... all of this occurred during numerous administration changes in ALL OF THE WESTERN govts while those citizens enjoyed super cheap goods provided by China.  Viewed another way it was incredibly strategic by China and now is a terrifying mess.

[OneMoreFarang]

On 3/28/2022 at 7:15 AM, webfact said:

Yet despite its anxiety at China’s growing might, the “west” (if there is such a thing anymore) continues to mismanage its Far East policy and continues to lose influence and prestige among leaders in the region.

Which influence is better? American's or Chinese or a little of everything?

Personally I don't know.

But I know that with American wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and their whole "we decide what is wrong and what is right" attitude they don't exactly present a picture of a peaceful country.

And then Trump. The good thing is that until now he didn't start a war. But he did lots of other crazy things and if he will get back to power then we can be pretty sure more bad things will happen.

So even if China is bad, is unstable and unreliable America better?

[Longwood50]

23 hours ago, edwinchester said:

Trump didn't even try, he continually praised Xi even as far as saying the Chinese were doing a very professional job with covid despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Launched a disastrous tariff war with China that cost thousands of US jobs, alienated countless Asian and European Govts which furthered China's global ambitions, refused to condemn Chinese human rights abuses, withdrew from the Trans Pacific Partnership and did everything he could to undermine the UN which left a vacuum in world leadership China was only to willing to try and seize. Trump was an unmitigated disaster as far as increasing China's role and influence on the world stage.

Just a guess but could I assume you don't like Trump.  

Surely I would love to hear your critique of how "China Joe" has brought the Chinese to their knees, lowered energy prices, tamed inflation, stopped the Russian aggression, eliminated Covid and please give special recognition to his handling of the exit from Afghanistan. 

[candide]

33 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

Just a guess but could I assume you don't like Trump.  

Surely I would love to hear your critique of how "China Joe" has brought the Chinese to their knees, lowered energy prices, tamed inflation, stopped the Russian aggression, eliminated Covid and please give special recognition to his handling of the exit from Afghanistan. 

"Russia Trump" did not bring the Chinese to their needs, implemented a stupid tariff policy which did not reduce the trade deficit with China, scratched the TPP, mishandled the response to pandemic, and was Putin's bitch. About the exit from Afghanistan, he applied the plan (un)prepared by Trump, and a treaty negotiated directly with the Talibans without involving the official government, lol!

 

About the pandemic, oil prices and inflation, you did not expect the US president to control virus mutations and global energy prices, did you?

Edited March 29, 2022 by candide

[Bkk Brian]

Fortunately the rest of the world left China behind in its zero covid policy, hows that going by the way? I hear Shanghai is now in total lockdown....????

[candide]

3 hours ago, relax33 said:

Sorry, think you have mistaken The Chinese for their government.
It's often important to separate the deeds of the government from the citizens of a country..
The citizens are usually innocent n blameless n what the government does is often not reflective of the masses ..
For instance, many US citizens did not want the US to be involved in  wars in Iraq, Vietnam n Afghanistan n  many blame the present govt for not acting decisively to prevent the Ukrainian war  in the first place  ..

True, but Chinese people have been completely brainwashed an are very nationalistic, so they nearly all fully support the Chinese government.

[zzaa09]

3 hours ago, relax33 said:

Thai Chinese - Wikipedia

Read the Second paragraph of Wikipedia 's take on The Thai Chinese n you will see not only how far but more importantly how High Chinese Influence reaches up ..
No prize for guessing here  ...

The historic connections are so deep and varied.

Why is there such debate along these lines.

It is what it is. 

 

The Orient has always been a suspicious enemy and competitor for ages. 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply reported and removed.  

 

[relax33]

1 hour ago, candide said:

True, but Chinese people have been completely brainwashed an are very nationalistic, so they nearly all fully support the Chinese government.

That's cause most of them live in a very "insulated" environment with little exposure to the outside world.
Most do not use english after learning it in school n do not explore the western aspects of the internet .
They are also very law abiding n obedient n most are not interested in  political discourse which makes them very "pliable" in a way.
It will take them at least 2 generations to be as demanding n worldly as the Taiwanese.
Even Singaporeans are very "insulated" .
They largely believe what the govt says and only read the local English daily, which is very limited n bias in a way .. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by relax33

[relax33]

45 minutes ago, candide said:

True, but Chinese people have been completely brainwashed an are very nationalistic, so they nearly all fully support the Chinese government.

As in most countries, the big cities n the areas near the coast are where people are more worldly .
Obviously you have educated folks who can think n relate to things but they often only form a small majority that are dwarfed out by people who act based on emotion n other illogical reasons .
Ironically, this is where the "democratic" one man one vote system will result in inferior candidates being voted to rule the country.
This affects countries everywhere from The Philippines to the US.
People usually become nationalistic when rallied upon by their leaders to support a certain cause
The Capitol Riots is indeed a nationalistic event that you will not see occurring in China anytime soon 
 

[ftpjtm]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Exactly,  you heard a rumour (regarding private hospitals attempts to buy mRNA vaccines being stymied by the Thai government).

Yes, I heard a "rumor" which was widely reported by multiple sources in the media, including The Nation/Thai Visa/ASEAN Now.

 

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2021/02/10/local-govt-private-hospitals-blocked-from-starting-vaccine-drive/

[candide]

4 hours ago, relax33 said:

As in most countries, the big cities n the areas near the coast are where people are more worldly .
Obviously you have educated folks who can think n relate to things but they often only form a small majority that are dwarfed out by people who act based on emotion n other illogical reasons .
Ironically, this is where the "democratic" one man one vote system will result in inferior candidates being voted to rule the country.
This affects countries everywhere from The Philippines to the US.
People usually become nationalistic when rallied upon by their leaders to support a certain cause
The Capitol Riots is indeed a nationalistic event that you will not see occurring in China anytime soon 
 

Not sure. I know several Chinese people who have studied abroad at Master level or even PhD, been exposed to critical thinking and to all kind of media, and most of them are still buying the CCP propaganda.

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Just a guess but could I assume you don't like Trump.  

Surely I would love to hear your critique of how "China Joe" has brought the Chinese to their knees, lowered energy prices, tamed inflation, stopped the Russian aggression, eliminated Covid and please give special recognition to his handling of the exit from Afghanistan. 

On the issue of Afghanistan it seems to have escaped the attention of some that it was the previous administration that negotiated an explicit agreement whereby all US troops had to leave Afghanistan by Aug 31, 2021.

[humbug]

10 hours ago, relax33 said:

Thai Chinese - Wikipedia

Read the Second paragraph of Wikipedia 's take on The Thai Chinese n you will see not only how far but more importantly how High Chinese Influence reaches up ..
No prize for guessing here  ...

you do realize that Chinese teams use wiki to promote fake chinese history and distort facts around their connection to nations, just look up 'map of shame'

 

but what was the point of you showing me this, to claim some fact, using chinese fake claims on wiki? or you think if some high family member married a chinese lady in the last 100 years?

 

I wrote about 2000 years history of this land is not chinese, but only their influence the last 140 years, and that is because the higher siamese families were foolish to let it happen, and now the generals have sold the country out through many thai/chinese agreements

 

ask yourself why still the large majority of this land are not chinese, speak languages based in sanskrit and pali, budhism, ceremonies of songkran and loy kratong all from vedic, mon,  java, kmer, which are also from vedic, and through Ayudhya to thonburi from lavo kingdoms,  and lavo kingdom has been off and  on in power from AD 300-1800, all these kingdoms are interconnected in SE Asia going back 2000 years

 

None of them speak Mandarin apart from Singapore

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by humbug

[farangnomore]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:14 PM, Pattaya Spotter said:

I wouldn't call it "arrogance" that is costing Western influence to decline in Asia/SE Asia...more a combination of incompetent (President Obama did nothing to counter Beijing while it built-up its militarized "string of pearls" in the South China Sea during his administration) and China resuming its historical place as the dominant economic and political power in the region.

Well-said indeed.  Not arrogance, but impotence.  No empire in the history of the world has succeeded by printing money. 

[sscc]

8 hours ago, candide said:

Not sure. I know several Chinese people who have studied abroad at Master level or even PhD, been exposed to critical thinking and to all kind of media, and most of them are still buying the CCP propaganda.

Answer is simple enough : 

Overall the life of 1.4 Billion Chinese in  Mainland China has been continuing to improve,  particularly in the last 20 years,  and almost all 1.4 Billion genuinely feel the improvement .................

So what is the surprise of Mainlander supporting for CCP government has been consistently over 90 % in past 15  years.  ( surveys done by few Western University / Western Scholars ) 

 

CCP came to power in Mainland China in 1949.   The opening 30 years from 1949 to late 1970's was big, big disaster.   

China was dirt poor in late 1970's and illiteracy was very high after those 30 disaster years. 

 

In 1978 they did an abrupt turnaround.   ( Too long to explain )

From late 1970's to now,   in this past 45-year period,  they had developed from everything desperate and poor to whatever China is now.   

 

One more important point is   China had aimed to erase poverty of Chinese population in Mainland China and had succeeded after 25 year effort.   

( China had talked about the helping the poor of the population very often in news conference,   every western country ignored this matter.   But many poor countries knew and appreciated the difficulty of this achievement ) 

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, sscc said:

Answer is simple enough : 

Overall the life of 1.4 Billion Chinese in  Mainland China has been continuing to improve,  particularly in the last 20 years,  and almost all 1.4 Billion genuinely feel the improvement .................

So what is the surprise of Mainlander supporting for CCP government has been consistently over 90 % in past 15  years.  ( surveys done by few Western University / Western Scholars ) 

 

CCP came to power in Mainland China in 1949.   The opening 30 years from 1949 to late 1970's was big, big disaster.   

China was dirt poor in late 1970's and illiteracy was very high after those 30 disaster years. 

 

In 1978 they did an abrupt turnaround.   ( Too long to explain )

From late 1970's to now,   in this past 45-year period,  they had developed from everything desperate and poor to whatever China is now.   

 

One more important point is   China had aimed to erase poverty of Chinese population in Mainland China and had succeeded after 25 year effort.   

( China had talked about the helping the poor of the population very often in news conference,   every western country ignored this matter.   But many poor countries knew and appreciated the difficulty of this achievement ) 

Poverty is still rampant in China in the rural areas where 40% of the population lives. What China has done to bolster its claim that it has eliminated poverty is to define it downward. China is now an upper middle income nation. The World Bank estimates that for an upper middle income nation like China the poverty line should be an income of  $5.50 per day. China defines its poverty line as $2.30 per day. That's not far above the poverty line threshold as defined for poor countries like Ethiopia. even though China is about 10 times as wealthy on a per capita basis.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25/deep-sixing-poverty-in-china/

[relax33]

11 hours ago, candide said:

Not sure. I know several Chinese people who have studied abroad at Master level or even PhD, been exposed to critical thinking and to all kind of media, and most of them are still buying the CCP propaganda.

I am sure they all have their own reasons so to each his own
Those having highly paid jobs who are well treated n treasured by the govt obviously would have good things to say of it.
Just having the honor to be treated as First Class citizens who are never discriminated is enough motivation for many to return to serve the motherland.
Over the last 10 yeas, lots of Phds have been attracted back n offered huge research grants n perks that are un-matched elsewhere 
Tbh, most people have a good perspective of the govt as it had really improved their standard of living immensely over the last 20 years..
Among the intelligentsia, those living good lives will of cos usually be supportive.
You also have  a class of people within this niche who had seen the ills of the western world n had truthfully reckon that China's model is still superior n is far "less bad" ..
Look at the US where you presently have culture wars, race wars, discrimination, fake news , daily shootouts , folks who are wary of strangers n people who just plainly dislike politicians regardless of party affiliation as they feel that all of them are equally bad n you get the drift ..

[relax33]

13 hours ago, humbug said:

you do realize that Chinese teams use wiki to promote fake chinese history and distort facts around their connection to nations, just look up 'map of shame'

 

but what was the point of you showing me this, to claim some fact, using chinese fake claims on wiki? or you think if some high family member married a chinese lady in the last 100 years?

 

I wrote about 2000 years history of this land is not chinese, but only their influence the last 140 years, and that is because the higher siamese families were foolish to let it happen, and now the generals have sold the country out through many thai/chinese agreements

 

ask yourself why still the large majority of this land are not chinese, speak languages based in sanskrit and pali, budhism, ceremonies of songkran and loy kratong all from vedic, mon,  java, kmer, which are also from vedic, and through Ayudhya to thonburi from lavo kingdoms,  and lavo kingdom has been off and  on in power from AD 300-1800, all these kingdoms are interconnected in SE Asia going back 2000 years

 

None of them speak Mandarin apart from Singapore

 

 

You made several good points.
I understand the reasons for your thoughts n fully agree n respect them.

Too bad I am born late, otherwise I could get away with not studying for exams by simply saying that whatever is written in the text books are fake .. ha
than 1+ 1 can be 5 or any number I want to be which will be really cool   > especially since I suck at Math …

None of them speak Mandarin apart from Singapore
Are You referring to Thailand or the ASEAN Countries ??
Unfortunately, both actually have lot of Mandarin speakers ..

Singapore ‘s “official first language” in school is actually English.
Students are free to choose the Second language.
It can be French, Spanish, German,  Tamil (Indian), Malay etc
Most eventually choose Chinese as the Second language because of its perceived utility n relevance

Thailand has the biggest Chinese diaspora in the world with about 10 - 11 mil so I’ll definitely not bet that no one can speak Mandarin or wants to learn it … especially as Mandarin is a language that is now commonly taught in the so called “better “Thai schools n there are lots of private schools n internet classes teaching the Chinese language atm.

For the last 8 - 10 years, there has been several volunteer programs to get fresh grads from Chinese Universities to be “do gooders” n come to teach at Thai village schools for low wages ..  
Thus there are quite a number of Chinese expats teachers in local Thai Schools now , with some even becoming school principals . Some of their experiences have been documented on Youtube.

There are also hordes of Chinese Speaking Thais who work at the duty free, property n tourism sectors.
Visit the sales office of any major property developer in Bangkok and you will definitely be able to find a few Thais (both of the fair or darker skin variety) who can converse well in mandarin.

Checkout the expensive local n International Schools in Thailand n you will find that many do offer Mandarin as an elective as it is presently a “must have” on the curriculum to allow them to compete with their rivals  ..

 

[onekoolguy]

I wonder how that is working out for the Phillipines?

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, ftpjtm said:

Yes, I heard a "rumor" which was widely reported by multiple sources in the media, including The Nation/Thai Visa/ASEAN Now.

 

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2021/02/10/local-govt-private-hospitals-blocked-from-starting-vaccine-drive/

Do you really believe what you read in the media? Who do you think provided the info to the media, the government or the private hospitals.

The private hospitals tried to jump the gun, they started advertising vaccine for sale that they had no authority to import and were forced to stop the advertising campaign.

Do you you really think that under the circumstances the government would have gone out of their way to expedite an import licence for the private hospitals when at the time many other import licences were in the pipeline, every chance it went to the back of the queue.

The story is nothing other than an attempt by the private hospitals to shift the blame for the delay, something that was of their own making.

[placnx]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:45 PM, fusion58 said:

And one before him who gifted America’s manufacturing base to China.

Actually Clinton got China into the WTO. Since the 2000 membership, it was easy for US jobs to be exported there. The fools who gave their tech to Chinese partners may find it replicated to produce goods that grab their markets around the world.

Edited March 30, 2022 by placnx