Stalled Chinese submarine shines light on Rolls Royce firm supplying engines to China’s military

[webfact]

On Monday for the first time, Thai Prime Minister Prayut Chan ocha suggested the possibility that the contract to supply the ฿13.5 billion S26T Yuan-class submarine to the Royal Thai Navy signed with a Chinese state-owned shipbuilding firm may have to be cancelled if the submarine cannot be supplied with the specified German MTU engines. These have been blocked by the German government on foot if European Union sanctions which were imposed after the Tiananmen Square massacre on the 4th of June 1989. It comes at a time of a sharpening examination of military procurement activities by Beijing. The submarine deal with China, since its unveiling in 2015, has generated massive public outcry in the kingdom and media coverage which may have contributed to a renewed focus on the supply of military hardware to China, up to now, classified as dual-purpose but which has been used to equip the Chinese Navy with superior western manufactured engines.

 

by Joseph O' Connor

 

The spotlight on Thailand’s submarine deal with China is also linked to the altered geopolitical environment after the Russian invasion of Ukraine with heightened sensitivity in the West, in particular in Germany, concerning the supply of critical engineering products to an expanding Chinese military.

 

Officials with the Royal Thai Navy and representatives of the Chinese state-owned shipbuilding firm involved in the contract are to meet later in April with its potential cancellation threatening a severe blow to Thailand’s shift to China as a defence equipment supplier after the 2006 and 2014 coups in what is now a radically altered world.

 

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The construction of Thailand’s S26T Yuan-class submarine has been halted after authorities in Berlin moved last month to prohibit the supply of German manufactured MTU engines for the project. This is linked to a 1989 embargo imposed by the European Union on China after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre which saw an uprising against communist rule in China bloodily suppressed by the military that year.

 

Full story: https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2022/04/07/submarine-deal-raises-questions-about-china/

 

-- © Copyright Thai Examiner 2022-04-08

 

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[RandiRona]

CCP rule is to copy/steal IPs (Intellectual Property) and create a cheaper version to other countries. There is a reason other countries are reluctant to collaborate or allow Chinese companies in R&D and communications.

[Enoon]

2 hours ago, RandiRona said:

CCP rule is to copy/steal IPs (Intellectual Property) and create a cheaper version to other countries. There is a reason other countries are reluctant to collaborate or allow Chinese companies in R&D and communications.

Nothing in your post has anything to do with the reason that the MTU turbine deal has gone **** up.

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Enoon

[Geoffggi]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

On Monday for the first time, Thai Prime Minister Prayut Chan ocha suggested the possibility that the contract to supply the ฿13.5 billion S26T Yuan-class submarine to the Royal Thai Navy signed with a Chinese state-owned shipbuilding firm may have to be cancelled if the submarine cannot be supplied with the specified German MTU engines.

For the first time I do have to agree with Cha Cha, go nuclear like Australia did this would really upset the Chinese ............LOL

[ezzra]

Yeah China, a bastion and leading light for honesty and fair conduct...

[whaleboneman]

48 minutes ago, Enoon said:

Nothing in your post has anything to do with the reason that the MTU turbine deal has gone **** up.

 

 

 

Do you mean MTU diesel engine deal?

[Isaan sailor]

This begs the question:  why does Thailand need submarines?

[hotchilli]

36 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

This begs the question:  why does Thailand need submarines?

Photo op's and bank balances.

[IAMHERE]

34 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

This begs the question:  why does Thailand need submarines?

So Thailand can assist ASEAN members when they have to protect South China Sea rights.

[ChrisY1]

Ok...maybe a "get out of jail" card for Prayut!....

Even he, with his simple and childish mentality, must reason the subs are useless!

[wombat]

48 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

This begs the question:  why does Thailand need submarines?

My guess is so it can be parked up at the new Chinese sub base they have built in Cambodia 

[khunpeer]

7 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

So Thailand can assist ASEAN members when they have to protect South China Sea rights.

that will never happen, as it never happened with army on land...

protect against who? sofar China is the only 'naughty boy' in the class, but do you really think that if China will mess with let's say Taiwan, that Tland will step in with either their army or navy with submarines or vessels?

not a chance against China... and they know it!

 

[RichardColeman]

I'm actually quite surprised that the publishers of the photo are not in hiding from the up an coming PM law suit for setting him next to an embarrassing CCP tiananmen square picture

[mikebell]

30 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

I'm actually quite surprised that the publishers of the photo are not in hiding from the up an coming PM law suit for setting him next to an embarrassing CCP tiananmen square picture

He's never heard of Tiananmen Square.  He still believes the complete Internet is in Thai.

[mtls2005]

Rolls Royce, engines, thailand, what could go wrong.

 

In January 2017 a 4 year investigation by the UK’s Serious Fraud Office came to light. It determined that aircraft engine-maker Rolls Royce paid bribes to “…agents of the Thai state and employees of Thai Airways…” in order to secure orders for the Rolls Royce T800 engine for its Boeing 777-200s.

 

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/crime/thai-airways-procurement-probe-points-to-corruption#:~:text=In January 2017 a 4,for its Boeing 777-200s.

 

 

*Yes, I'm sure someone will be along to chastise on the various entities within RR Holdings.

 

 

[jippytum]

Can't understand why this government  does not purchase the submarines without engines .After all that would be cheaper as they will only become a tourist attraction [for  Thai people only  in the interest of national security ] and similar to the expensive aircraft carrier that never goes to sea and is permanently moored at the navel base.

[Misterwhisper]

Is there still any product the Chinese haven't stolen/copied/back-engineered yet? I'm surprised they seem to have so much difficulty copying that MTU engine.

 

I recall that classical story of a U.S. manufacturer (and copyright owner) of a particular communications chipset filing an international lawsuit against a Chinese company a couple of decades ago for having stolen their design and flooding the market with dirt cheap copies of the chipset.

 

The plaintiff showed the court that even the English-language technical information leaflet the Chinese supplied with their copies featured EXAC TLY THE SAME word misspellings the original manufacturer had deliberately scattered throughout the text.

 

But the Chinese company's lawyers argued that those exact same misspellings had appeared "by sheer coincidence" and were therefore NOT admissible as proof that their client had stolen and copied the design.

 

The court dismissed the case.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Misterwhisper

[nahkit]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

Rolls Royce, engines, thailand, what could go wrong.

 

In January 2017 a 4 year investigation by the UK’s Serious Fraud Office came to light. It determined that aircraft engine-maker Rolls Royce paid bribes to “…agents of the Thai state and employees of Thai Airways…” in order to secure orders for the Rolls Royce T800 engine for its Boeing 777-200s.

 

https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/crime/thai-airways-procurement-probe-points-to-corruption#:~:text=In January 2017 a 4,for its Boeing 777-200s.

 

 

*Yes, I'm sure someone will be along to chastise on the various entities within RR Holdings.

 

 

 

"a 4 year investigation by the UK’s Serious Fraud Office"

 

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2017/01/19/thai-airways-promises-inquiry-roll-royce-bribery/

 

Let me know when the Thai side finishes their 90 day investigation and starts a prosecution case.

[vandeventer]

8 hours ago, RandiRona said:

CCP rule is to copy/steal IPs (Intellectual Property) and create a cheaper version to other countries. There is a reason other countries are reluctant to collaborate or allow Chinese companies in R&D and communications.

Most of their copy versions don't work when you need them. Just ask the African countries there buy cheap Chinese weapons' and are not happy with China. Just think what Ukraine can do with a few Subs.

[Burma Bill]

4 hours ago, wombat said:

new Chinese sub base they have built in Cambodia 

With respect, there is no Chinese or other submarine base in Cambodia. The only Royal Cambodian naval base (for surface vessels) is the Ream Base in Sihanoukville Province. Cambodia does not have submarines. Yes, the Chinese are building modern infrastructure and deepening channels to accommodate larger ships, of which many visit from other countries such as ASEAN, India, Japan and Australia. Quote:-

 

Since 2010 the base has been the site of annual joint Cambodian-United States training and naval exercises under the Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT) program.^[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ream_Naval_Base

 

For reference, Burma has its first Chinese submarine, delivered in December 2021.

 

https://asiatimes.com/2022/02/chinas-submarine-diplomacy-reaching-deep-and-wide/

 

[PETERTHEEATER]

5 hours ago, jippytum said:

Can't understand why this government  does not purchase the submarines without engines .After all that would be cheaper as they will only become a tourist attraction [for  Thai people only  in the interest of national security ] and similar to the expensive aircraft carrier that never goes to sea and is permanently moored at the navel base.

How many semen are inside the navel base? ????

[NeoDinosaw]

6 hours ago, Misterwhisper said:

Is there still any product the Chinese haven't stolen/copied/back-engineered yet? I'm surprised they seem to have so much difficulty copying that MTU engine.

 

I recall that classical story of a U.S. manufacturer (and copyright owner) of a particular communications chipset filing an international lawsuit against a Chinese company a couple of decades ago for having stolen their design and flooding the market with dirt cheap copies of the chipset.

 

The plaintiff showed the court that even the English-language technical information leaflet the Chinese supplied with their copies featured EXAC TLY THE SAME word misspellings the original manufacturer had deliberately scattered throughout the text.

 

But the Chinese company's lawyers argued that those exact same misspellings had appeared "by sheer coincidence" and were therefore NOT admissible as proof that their client had stolen and copied the design.

 

The court dismissed the case.

which court was this ?

[Dumbfounded]

17 hours ago, webfact said:

The construction of Thailand’s S26T Yuan-class submarine has been halted after authorities in Berlin moved last month to prohibit the supply of German manufactured MTU engines for the project. This is linked to a 1989 embargo imposed by the European Union on China after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre

So China has an embargo re the supply of MTU engines but still signs a contract with Thailand for subs with these engines? Would have made more sense to sell the subs without and tell Thailand to get the engines themselves from Germany