Filial Piety - What's wrong with it?

[Headgame]

10 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I did. 

 

Not getting fleeced is pretty worthwhile.

 

Not living in a village in rural Thailand, in my retirement years, is pretty worthwhile.

 

Not buying land I can't truly own is pretty worthwhile.

 

Why not do a social experiment?  Stop the money flow and see what happens.  Of course, you wouldn't dare, you know the outcome.  

 

So many guys have got themselves into a situation here where they have to keep paying, because they have ploughed their life savings into the relationship and worthless assets, and given they are retired, they are now stuck, and unable to start again. 

 

I didn't work hard all my life to be manipulated to end up living in a village in Thailand where I get to watch rice grow until I die.  

 

You worked hard all your life to end up a sad, selfish,

frightened, cynical and quite pathetic individual. How could you "know" all these things w/o ever having a Thai gf? 

Zero value to your opinions. 

 

10 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

 

 

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

I'll bookmark this thread for my son to read.  He's only 7 now, but I'm hoping he will adopt the ideas being discussed as I enter my 70s!

[Walker88]

12 hours ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

. To me, all taxation is fraudulent

That's a rather State of Nature attitude, and suggests a total lack of understanding of civilized society. Perhaps you prefer the old Hobbesian view of life as 'poor, nasty, brutish & short'

 

There are a good many things that make society better and make it more likely to be 'civilized'.  Good roads allow both easy travel and the transport of life's necessities. Defense keeps you safe from invaders (and recent history reminds us such invasions are possible and nasty), food and drugs being tested makes it less likely you or your loved ones will be poisoned by rancid food or bad chemicals. Even things like FDIC guarantee of bank deposits (and the equivalent in other nations) gives you a place to put your savings and not worry about loss or theft. Even people without funds are afforded the chance to send their children to school. Perhaps you prefer societies where only the wealthy have access to education, kind of like the days of serfdom? Oh, and having some sort of law enforcement entity seems to have some benefits, too.

 

Those things cost money, and most have no incentive for a private entity to do them. Thus, citizens get taxed, and in a civilized society, most people have decided that helping our fellows makes for a more humane, as well as safer society.

 

Many people jump on the 'taxation is bad' bandwagon because they actually think they have entirely made their own life and harbor delusions of being some sort of 'sovereign man'. Silly. The society that allows us to succeed has a foundation built of rule of law and relative safety, and most of that is created through the tax process.

[VocalNeal]

7 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Perhaps you prefer societies where only the wealthy have access to education medical treatment

Just sayin...

[BritManToo]

12 hours ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

You see, this is precisely why I spend little time on these forums, people like you, attitudes like this. TVF is full of bitter old men.

I prefer reality to denial.

I'm not sure that makes me bitter, as I have no resentment of this reality.

It is what it is, and I accept and enjoy my life as it is.

[wwest5829]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I respect your honesty.

 

How many are living miserable lives in retirement, in Issan, drinking themselves to death, because they were not realistic here?

Without statistical analysis based on factual evidence all are subject to just guessing. Based of what? What stories we read here? What I have gleaned personally from reading here has, in fact, been worthwhile ... keep your wits about you and proceed with caution as it is not my home turf (culture). Knock on wood ... so far so good with my Thai wife and Stepdaughter after 5 years. At age 75 ... happy man.

[LaosLover]

A woman's family is at best a necessary evil and always a net negative.

 

Like Farang says, would you pick these people? No. No, you would not.

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

So many guys have got themselves into a situation here where they have to keep paying, because they have ploughed their life savings into the relationship and worthless assets, and given they are retired, they are now stuck, and unable to start again. 

I thought most of us had pensions?

I may run out of money, but in another 2-3 weeks I will have money again.

I enjoy my life here, my kids here, and the woman I pay to pretend to love me.

[1FinickyOne]

11 hours ago, Leaver said:

Ahh, but those who have invested their life savings into the relationship,

not sure why someone would do that anywhere, w/anyone? 

 

Basically what I have seen for myself and my friends, you get back what you give out. If you are a devoted and valuable family member, your family will give you that back in return.

 

Too often I have seen posters here who have absolutely no idea of language and culture and they make enemies of family - and think it is all the fault of the family as they are perfect angels... 

[jippytum]

i am pleased the poster is happy with his Thai wife and in laws.However some foreigners with the best of intentions have not had such a happy outcome later in life. I know personally of three separate occasions where foreigners married and everything was going fine until the foreigner older than his wife succumbed to illness and old age .In such circumstances the finances where handed over to the Thai family then the problems started . Only the basic minimum care was afforded to my friends while the family drank and gambled most of the retirement income they had control of .

Not every story has a happy ending .

 

[BritManToo]

29 minutes ago, jippytum said:

i am pleased the poster is happy with his Thai wife and in laws.

I class the OP as an 'angry' poster.

I've never encountered anyone with that level of anger that could be classed as happy.

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

To be strictly on topic, there's nothing wrong with it. 

 

I just question how often it happens here for farang, without money being involved.  I really don't think that's too far off topic. 

Your off topic because you are not married into a relationship with a Thai family your single life is not what many men want or like me for one. 

[CharlieH]

Off topic/ personal remark post removed.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

58 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I class the OP as an 'angry' poster.

I've never encountered anyone with that level of anger that could be classed as happy.

That's an interesting comment so I'll bite. What is it you perceive me to be angry and unhappy about, being in a real marriage rather than a pretend one? Do you feel folk like me are angry and sad we can't be folk like you?

 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

 

Many people jump on the 'taxation is bad' bandwagon because they actually think they have entirely made their own life and harbor delusions of being some sort of 'sovereign man'. Silly. The society that allows us to succeed has a foundation built of rule of law and relative safety, and most of that is created through the tax process.

IMO one gets what they pay for, unless corruption has taken hold.

Denmark and Sweden have very high tax rates, but the age pension a Dane or Swede gets is the subject of envy.

Most Thais have an income of less than 150,000 baht per year, which is exempt. Even up to 300,000 baht baht/year they are only taxed at 5%. That shows up in the age pension they get.

[rumak]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I class the OP as an 'angry' poster.

I've never encountered anyone with that level of anger that could be classed as happy.

posting our opinions on forums , especially non mainstream ones,  always raise the ire of many in the group.   Different opinions are taken personally .  Ahhh,  just another day passing time .......

[BritManToo]

59 minutes ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

That's an interesting comment so I'll bite. What is it you perceive me to be angry and unhappy about, being in a real marriage rather than a pretend one? Do you feel folk like me are angry and sad we can't be folk like you?

There's all sorts of categories of posters on AN.

The disappointed, the angry, the anti-white, an odd mentally ill, the more Thai than Thais, the 'I cannot tell a lie', drunks (me), alcoholics, etc.

 

Your posts (and Avatar) just give the me the impression of anger.

[CM Dad]

16 hours ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

You see, this is precisely why I spend little time on these forums, people like you, attitudes like this. TVF is full of bitter old men.  People marry into Thailand without understanding the people they are marrying. That's their fault. When my money ran out, I was thrown a lifeline by Thai family and I'm not going to be the farang that ran out when things go bad. . . Everyone's experience of life is different of course.

I have lived here for more than thirty years and I agree with what you say 100%.  Like you, my Thai family and friends will care for me and be by my side until the end.  Money has nothing to do with how they treat me.  None of my Thai friends or family have ever asked me for money.  For that reason, I am willing to help whenever and however I can.  Support does not necessarily mean money.  Often times a hug is more valued and meaningful.  Sadly, Thailand is filled with what I call "Logs" - lonely old guys whose refusal to adapt to living here means they have no real friends.  You get what you give - and the give part is not money, though if one is able to offer financial support when needed then one should do so.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

13 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

My take on it is that a big part of it is consumerism.  Keeping people separated and each having a single house, single car, etc., means more money is being spent.  Forcing people to buy insurance, pension, etc., means that money is in the hands of the banks rather than going straight to the parents.

 

So consumer culture is all about hyper-individualisation where people only really think about themselves and what they independently have.

Sounds like you've been watching Adam Curtis documentaries. Not a criticism, your comments remind me of his excellent Century of the Self series, in which he describes how westerners have been tricked and manipulated into their individual lifestyles of want and greed.

 

59 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

There's all sorts of categories of posters on AN.

The disappointed, the angry, the anti-white, an odd mentally ill, the more Thai than Thais, the 'I cannot tell a lie', drunks (me), alcoholics, etc.

 

Your posts (and Avatar) just give the me the impression of anger.

So just your imaginings then, kind of like the anticipation of a blind date.

[sawadee1947]

17 hours ago, Led Lolly Yellow Lolly said:

old folks home stinking of stale p:$$ with strangers horrifies me,

Typical preconception.

My experience is quite different.

I visited many homes before covid.

All homes provide excellent Care with English speaking nurses and doctors.

However, it's not for FREE. ☺️

At least 1000 Euro per month.

 

[billd766]

17 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

When your money runs out, so does the Thai family. 

Sorry to pop your little balloon, but not all Thai families are like that.

 

It didn't and hasn't done with my Thai family yet.

 

We helped them when they were down and they have helped us when we were down.

 

There will always be a place for them here, if they need one for as long as they need one.

 

Why?

 

Because they are family.

[TheScience]

As Thailand was modernizing and families shrinking I've started to wonder what all the singles, childless couples will do without their offspring to support them in their later years?

 

Life gets extremely precarious for seniors here. It will grow ever more so as Thailand's economy creaks along, modernization, etc.

 

Just like the world a hollowing out of middle class.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

13 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

Typical preconception.

I anticipated some comment like this. I had a kind of unique access to elderly care in the UK before I left, my mother worked night shifts in a care home and I'd visit regularly for a late night cup of tea. This one was government, later they attempted to privatise it, or semi-privatise it, or some such bull. This kind of place is the reality for the majority that don't have significant wealth or a house to sell. I always left with the stench of ammonia in my nose, and my bum spelling of urine from sitting on the chairs. They just didn't have the budget to replace them. That's not to say the staff didn't do the best they could.

 

In any case, whatever the cost, state operated or 5 star, I've seen enough to know it's not what I want for me or mine.

 

 

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

Typical preconception.

My experience is quite different.

I visited many homes before covid.

All homes provide excellent Care with English speaking nurses and doctors.

However, it's not for FREE. ☺️

At least 1000 Euro per month.

 

Why would they have English speaking nurses and doctors in a '1000 Euro' charging care home?

[billd766]

15 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Ahh, but those who have invested their life savings into the relationship, and into worthless assets in Issan will tell you that you are cynical, and bitter etc etc, when all you have done is been realistic. 

And those are the very people I tend to ignore and laugh at.

 

What works for one person probably doesn't work for everybody.

 

It works for me and my family, but most farang/Thai marriages need a lot more hard work than a farang/farang marriage and not every farang is willing to work that hard for it.

 

OTOH from the group of some 30 farangs I personally know who have married Thais, I only know of 2 failed marriages.

 

I am more than happy living in rural Kamphaeng Phet with my 56 year old Thai wife and our 17 year old Thai/farang son. I am 77 and we have been living out here since 2004.

 

Why would I NEED to own a house and land? It is not as if I can take it with me when I die. Besides I paid for the land and house as a gift for my wife to live in when I die. She will pass it on to our son when she dies.

 

[billd766]

15 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I respect your honesty.

 

How many are living miserable lives in retirement, in Issan, drinking themselves to death, because they were not realistic here?

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Try this one.

 

How many are living happy lives in retirement, in rural Thailand, not drinking themselves to death, because they are realistic here?

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Just a point of pedantry, there's nothing stopping you becoming a Thai citizen if you want to own land. There are rules and regulations for that, of course.

 

 

 

 

[Tropposurfer]

I enjoyed reading your post Led L. Thank you for taking the time to consider and post. My experience is of a much shorter duration than yours (coming here for about a decade in my later years on med tourism initially, lived her now for just over 3 years) and I too have so much filial kindness I once again on my life journey found challenge of my fears of intimacy. The daily choice to make about either stepping forward through my fears and projections or sitting in them in the neurotic familiar comfort they provide.

 

It is a joy to read of your dear aged in-law and the tenderness and spirituality of her soul shared with you, I am happy that you receive this.

I know of what you speak as my dear departed Nana Leah (I miss you) who did the very same thing with me except she used to sing to me. She knew I was a troubled anxious teen. She gave me love simply because she could, chose to, and cared.

 

As for the responders who say life is purely transactional I would respond by saying, to some degree this is true, albeit often it is a secondary consideration not the primer as believed.

We are social animals and as such wired to negotiate in order to survive - for those that see this as some indicator of underhand skullduggery and thus belying of true affection and genuine attachment to others go take a look at Piaget's work it might help you chose more wisely, take stock of how you view relationships and the often dreaded and oft contemptibly viewed 'intimacy', accept what is, and open more.

 

I too hold a beautiful (and am doubly blessed), oh so generous, and at times overwhelmingly nurturing relationship, and as an extension of same with her family.

Such childlike, inclusive kindness, and joyous celebration of being alive, of which I had only faint glimpses in my past life, (I have know love before; eros, agape, filial) has challenged me to my core.

I am a better man for living here and allowing such love to enter me, to risk all yet nothing by reflecting it back.

I love and adore the spontaneous smiling and playfulness of Thai's and invite it a lot in my daily life.

I was drawn here not for the beautiful women (a marvellous abundant bonus nonetheless) but by something I had seen in other cultures e.g. Italian being one, Fijian being another.

As a child and adolescent I remember seeing the togetherness, the unerring support in the Alafacci family opposite us and how strange and deeply hypnotic and inviting it was. How shame triggering it was too for me for you see in my family we did not live in such a manner. I was far too young to discern and certainly not verbally articulate enough to express understanding of this intimacy at the time.

It took almost 2 decades before I was along a path before I had one of many 'aha moments' with the brilliant warm light of insight flooding into my dark corners illuminating as to what this phenomena was which attracted and frightened me so.

The same relational energy found here in LOS ... It was unconditional love and togetherness, just as you shared with us.

Allowing myself to receive this manna resulted, once again, in a direct prodding of the wounds of my own family both immediate and extended and forced me to forgive, ask for forgiveness, loose the need for the previous two, and to laugh heartily at the inane and narrow ways in which I viewed self and others.

I'm happy and profoundly grateful for being reminded by you Led L of that which was shared with me in my Gestalt training that being that the sum of its parts is far greater than the whole.

To judge harshly such transactional life-stuff in others i.e. you take care of me and I will you seems to deny that very same thing in me. "No man is an island" (John Dunne) once said.

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

It works for me and my family, but most farang/Thai marriages need a lot more hard work than a farang/farang marriage and not every farang is willing to work that hard for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone is different, I like to split my time between the city and the village. I'd find the village too boring for a long stretch.

 

I'm not married, for reasons outside Thailand. I may as well be, in terms of the relationship I have with my Thai GF.

 

I don't regard our de facto situation as hard work. I don't get drunk, I think any man who hits a woman is a moral coward, and I am sensibly generous with my money. Compared to my GF's former husband, I must look pretty good. I respect her beliefs, and would not think of trying to change them.

 

As you sow, so shall you reap says it all.

[sawadee1947]

21 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Why would they have English speaking nurses and doctors in a '1000 Euro' charging care home?

Im talking about Thailand, man!

If you speak fluently Thai, you are of course free in your choice.