Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[BKKBike09]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

4 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

There's always the Nissan Kicks - an electric car that gets its electric power from a petrol engine that only generates electric power. This is a concept that baffles me.

Why? Virtually every locomotive in the US is powered this way as are many/most newer luxury yachts. 

 

You would get the performance of an electric motor, and the convenience and range of an ICE.  

 

Those are completely different usage scenarios. Diesel-electric locomotives need massive torque delivered very incrementally to move thousands of tons of train from a stop. Generating electricity from an onboard diesel makes a lot of sense in that application.

 

Yachts - do you mean that these are boats with electric propulsion driven by a diesel generator, or where the ICE component is just there to charge a battery system (like diesel-electric subs).

 

Still baffles me why anyone would buy a car that has an ICE that can't actually directly move said vehicle.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Clearly that is not the case, because JBChiangRai has posted any number of false claims has refused to even try to support them. 

 

Nonsense, I just posted the references AI used.

[Pib]

7 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

@Pib, @Gweiloman

Do you then have to have a separate mobile package for the car's sim card and can you freely choose the service provider?

What is the monthly data usage?

Will the car work if you decide to remove the sim card and go "dark"?

The SIM that comes with my BYD Atto is provided free by BYD...and it's free service for 2 years...or maybe it's 4.  Then you can extended the service with BYD or switch to another SIM according to what the dealership told me.   The BYD SIM 2GB monthly limit (connects to AIS) which is much, much more than needed for basic communication.  Actually, when you want to make calls and stuff like that you would still be using your Smartphone's SIM via bluetooth/USD connection to the BYD infotainment system just like how it works on my 2009 Fortuner.  Yes, the car will continue to work without a SIM.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

HEV v PHEVs

 

It’s quite difficult to get information about the battery size in HEVs because they don’t want you know.

 

Usually it’s only about 1kWh by comparison my EV has 85kWh gross.

 

So you are driving an ICE car with a such a tiny battery that it’s going to have  very little impact on economy they are in no way a “halfway house” to a full EV

 

Battery life is described in terms of cycle life, how many it can be completed charged and discharged. For my EV that is probably once a week, for a hybrid it can be several times in a single short journey.

 

HEVs do not use batteries designed for long life like the LFP chemistry like in my EV….

 

“Toyota has no immediate plans to drop its decades-long history of using NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) batteries, a stark contrast to other automakers solely offering electrified vehicles with lithium-ion batteries. “NiMH is reserved solely for our hybrid-electric vehicle applications,”

 

https://www.mobilityengineeringtech.com/component/content/article/49256-sae-ma-07246

 

At the auto show Havel has an HEV for (I think) $800K and it had five-year 100kkm warranty for the whole car, and I think 8-year unlimited milage for the battery (to 70%) and electrics. Pretty impressive. 

[Bandersnatch]

7 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

@Pib, @Gweiloman

Do you then have to have a separate mobile package for the car's sim card and can you freely choose the service provider?

What is the monthly data usage?

Will the car work if you decide to remove the sim card and go "dark"?

My MG came with 5 years of free data sim. The data covered the car use and the bundled free music service from True. I don’t know what the monthly data usage allowance is but in 3 years I have never exceeded it.

 

Not sure about my BYD but J do know that OTAs are not included in the monthly allowance.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Nonsense, I just posted the references AI used.

Nonsense indeed. 

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

 

You claimed it would take 25 years to develop pink hydrogen, and claimed to know what it would cost.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

 

You have not supported any of these claims. 

 

So no, I do not expect you to name articles you have read or remember who wrote them, but I do expect you to at least make some attempt at supporting the claims you make, but you provide nothing. 

 

To be clear, you think it reasonable to claim as fact that "most experts agree" based only on your interpretation of the articles you have read, correct? 

 

That explains a lot. 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Bandersnatch said:

My MG came with 5 years of free data sim. The data covered the car use and the bundled free music service from True. I don’t know what the monthly data usage allowance is but in 3 years I have never exceeded it.

 

Not sure about my BYD but J do know that OTAs are not included in the monthly allowance.

In any event, the monthly charge for a SIM is not significant, 

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Not sure about my BYD but I do know that OTAs are not included in the monthly allowance.

Yea...any OTA that could be hundreds of megabytes in size do not count against the monthly BYD data allotment.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Nonsense indeed. 

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

 

You claimed it would take 25 years to develop pink hydrogen, and claimed to know what it would cost.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

 

You have not supported any of these claims. 

 

So no, I do not expect you to name articles you have read or remember who wrote them, but I do expect you to at least make some attempt at supporting the claims you make, but you provide nothing. 

 

To be clear, you think it reasonable to claim as fact that "most experts agree" based only on your interpretation of the articles you have read, correct? 

 

That explains a lot. 

 

Repeated nonsense, I've answered all of that, you clearly don't like the answers.  welcome to reality.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Repeated nonsense, I've answered all of that, you clearly don't like the answers.  welcome to reality.

The "reality" is that you made it all up, stated it all as fact, and were unable to support any of it. 

 

Too funny

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Firstly, this topic is electric vehicles in Thailand where there are no nuclear reactors, many countries have no nuclear reactors. 

Many countries have not Petroleum and yet they have ICE cars .

 

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Lithium type batteries will dominate the market long before Hydrogen gets there. 

Sure I said the same,  

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There are 2 barriers for Hydrogen cars, the first is cost of Hydrogen, currently it is too expensive,

currently. 

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

you start with electricity and end up with electricity,

what do you start in BEV strawberries? 

15 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Secondly storage.  Currently the only viable alternative is to compress

again the operative word here is "Currently "  no where did I say that hydrogen fuel cell is currently viable .

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There are experiments going on like you mention, but that's all they are, experiments.  No statement has been made about it's practicalities or the efficiency losses in storing & recovering it from the medium.

 conventional battery technology did not remain static, why should Hydrogen? 

[sirineou]

47 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

f you want to be taken seriously in this discussion you can’t just spout BS you need to post evidence to support your arguments

the same applies to you 

 

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Nonsense indeed. 

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

 

You claimed it would take 25 years to develop pink hydrogen, and claimed to know what it would cost.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

 

You have not supported any of these claims. 

 

So no, I do not expect you to name articles you have read or remember who wrote them, but I do expect you to at least make some attempt at supporting the claims you make, but you provide nothing. 

 

To be clear, you think it reasonable to claim as fact that "most experts agree" based only on your interpretation of the articles you have read, correct? 

 

That explains a lot. 

 

Taking your points one by one

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

McKinsey & Powermag said the only viable H2 option is blue & green, blue is polluting. References already posted.

 

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

You're American right?  United States: Reactor construction times in the U.S. averaged almost 43 years

Other countries have done better.  Add in the time to industrialise the Hydrogen process which is currently only experimental, we can only guess at that but it's years not months.

 

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

Nonsense, I said that was my opinion as an engineer by training and qualification.

 

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

Nonsense, I used artificial intelligence to the analysis and have since provided links to the expert sources.

 

All my claims have been substantiated.

 

Now, you tell me how Nuclear Hydrogen is going to be made cheaply?  Where is it currently being made? What is the planned production volume and amortised cost of the plant across the gas per liter?

 

Nuclear plants are very, very expensive.

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

15 minutes ago, Pib said:

Yea...any OTA that could be hundreds of megabytes in size do not count against the monthly BYD data allotment.

Is it possible you add the sim number in the My AIS app to monitor the data usage, up- and downloads?

The reason I ask, it that there is some debate in Europe that China is collecting and commercializing data from EVs.

This could just be driver behavior, that is then sold to insurance companies, but it could also be both voice and video recordings in and around the car.

[Bandersnatch]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

the same applies to you 

 

My reply to you included a citation that directly contradicted your premise 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

what do you start in BEV strawberries? 

again the operative word here is "Currently "  no where did I say that hydrogen fuel cell is currently viable .

 conventional battery technology did not remain static, why should Hydrogen? 

 

What do you start in BEV, you start with electricity and it is not converted into anything else before you use it.

Electrons in, electrons out, no electrolysis, no compression, no vehicles to transport it, not fuel stations to store it, no pumps to compress it into your car, none of that, zilch, nada

 

I agree Hydrogen will not remain static, but there are limits to efficiency.  There are always going to be losses, Fuel Cells produce heat, you can't get round that, electrolysis uses 1/3 of the energy to make Oxygen.

 

But the big issue is customers.  They have tried it & rejected it.  They did once with electric cars because they used Lead-Acid batteries.  That could change with Hydrogen, subsidise it and make the storage & retrieval of it more feasible and it could take off.  There are a lot of if's there.

[grs90]

What an epic topic!

 

I have read through nearly all the posts in this thread although still a few pages to go.  Some great information and some hilarious exchanges.   A fairly recent one though, about the availability of “Fast Charges” is reminiscent of my junior school years.  

 

“There aren’t many fast chargers”

“Yes there are”

“Oh no there aren’t”

“Look at the map - there are Loads”

“Liar, liar, pants on fire”

 

Come on gentleman, surely you are better than this?  If it was the kids having the argument you would tell them to grow up.  As an unbiased observer it seems a “fast charger” is one that uses DC other than AC to charge the vehicle.  If it is DC it is classed as a fast charger.  However, a fast charger does not necessarily mean a quick charger in terms of time taken to charge.  So you are both correct and it is just an issue over the terminology.  

 

Anyway, on on to my post.

 

 

I nearly bought a new EV but didn’t.  This is why.

 

In late 2023 I was in the market for a new car.  Budget was around 800K baht but in the end went slightly over that by buying a Toyota Yaris Cross..  Four months in I am very happy with the car.  Drives well, handles well and meets our requirements perfectly.  Also it is very economical returning an average of 24.4km per litre.  I appreciate though that this is more than a BEV costs to run.  I also have some regrets when I think about the performance difference between the car I bought and the EVs I tested.

 

I was really close to going for a BEV.  I read all the posts in this thread and on others on AN.  I also did a lot of research on other sites.  I test drove 3 BEVs and loved the experience.  Way superior to the traditional cars in terms of acceleration and also handling which, I think, was probably due to a lower centre of gravity.  Ultimately though, I decided against a pure electric model and this was due to the following main issues.

 

1.  Convenience of charging when on a longer trip.

We mainly drive locally as I think most people probably do.  It would be relatively simple to install a charger in the carport and nearly all our charging would be done at home.  So an EV would be fine for 90%+ of the time.  We do a longer (600-1000km) trip several times a year so it is not that often that we would need to charge away from home.  

 

When I thought about this, based in particular on posts from KhunLA to whom I give thanks for the information, It was clear that there were plenty of opportunities to charge up the vehicle, in a reasonable time, when on a longer journey.  So no particular “range anxiety”.  I avoid travelling at busier times as I dislike crowds roads.  Based on my observations I have never seen a queue for a charger at PTT stations where we normally stop.  So no worries about waiting to use a charger.  

 

My main issue was over the timing of when to do a longer stop to charge up the car.  On a longer trip I typically have a pee/smoke stop every hour or so and these take less than 5 minutes.  I will also typically have one approx 30 minute stop to have some food.  However, these are normally quite soon after leaving home when I stop for breakfast, or when I am nearly at my destination when I stop for lunch to avoid arriving at the hotel too early for check-in.  I didn’t want the longer stop to be done when the car wanted to eat rather than when I wanted to.  

 

Ultimately this is a convenience issue,  I could manage the charging very easily within a reasonable period of time.  I just can’t be bothered to.

 

2.  Resale value.

This is a complete unknown.  I would expect to keep any new car for 6 or 7 years and, having been scalped previously when trying to sell a car with manual transmission which hardly anyone wanted, I was somewhat worried about what a 2003 battery EV would be worth in 2009/2010.  I wasn’t worried about the car being unusable as I don’t believe the scare stories about the batteries being useless after several years.  At worse the battery may just lose a low percentage of its ability.  My main concern was over why anyone would want to buy a 2003 BEV when, I am sure, a 2009/2010 BEV will be far superior in terms of its battery capacity and charging ability.  

 

Things in the BEV market still seem to be advancing at a rapid pace so will a 2003 car be effectively obsolete in 6 or 7 years time?

 

3.  Insurance and repair costs.

Another big unknown.  At the moment this doesn’t seem to be an issue but I’m a bit concerned after reading stories about high repair costs for a BEV and the limited number of people trained and qualified to do any repairs needed.  This may, or may not, be an issue going forward.

 

I am at a stage of my life where I hate uncertainty.  I don’t have any worries about getting a Toyota insured or repaired.  I don’t want to introduce a new “worry” in to my life when there are plenty already.

 

 

So, overall, there were just enough niggling little issues preventing me buying a BEV.  It was a close call though and I am sure the next purchase will be a BEV.

 

For me, now, I want to be able to buy a BEV for around 800K.  I want to be able to do a 450 to 500 KM journey without having to charge en-route.  I want the 1000baht per night type hotels to have charging points so I can charge overnight on arrival, rather than having to eff around finding a charging location near the hotel or paying for a more expensive hotel which provides charging points as many already do.  Will these requirements be met by 2009/2010?  I think, probably, yes.

 

So, in conclusion, no EV for me this time.  But keep the thread going because next time I am sure there will be!!

[Yellowtail]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

What do you start in BEV, you start with electricity and it is not converted into anything else before you use it.

Electrons in, electrons out, no electrolysis, no compression, no vehicles to transport it, not fuel stations to store it, no pumps to compress it into your car, none of that, zilch, nada

 

I agree Hydrogen will not remain static, but there are limits to efficiency.  There are always going to be losses, Fuel Cells produce heat, you can't get round that, electrolysis uses 1/3 of the energy to make Oxygen.

 

But the big issue is customers.  They have tried it & rejected it.  They did once with electric cars because they used Lead-Acid batteries.  That could change with Hydrogen, subsidise it and make the storage & retrieval of it more feasible and it could take off.  There are a lot of if's there.

To be fair, something has to be converted to electricity, it then the electivity has to be used to charge the battery. and then the battery has to provide the electricity to power the vehicle. 

 

Right now, most EV's are powered by electricity generated by fossil fuel.

 

ICEV burn fossil fuel to power the vehicle directly. 

[Pib]

14 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Is it possible you add the sim number in the My AIS app to monitor the data usage, up- and downloads?

The reason I ask, it that there is some debate in Europe that China is collecting and commercializing data from EVs.

This could just be driver behavior, that is then sold to insurance companies, but it could also be both voice and video recordings in and around the car.

 

I doubt it regarding the BYD-provided SIM.  Whether it's an AIS SIM or was just connecting to the AIS network I couldn't say. The BYD infotainment system will show the long IMEI number of its mobile communications circuit and the long ICCID of the SIM card but does not show the actual SIM phone number.

 

************

Unlike an IMEI number, which refers to the mobile device, an ICCID number refers to the SIM card itself. Since each SIM card has a unique ICCID, you may sometimes hear it called the SIM card number

[Bandersnatch]

10 minutes ago, grs90 said:

What an epic topic!

 

I have read through nearly all the posts in this thread although still a few pages to go.  Some great information and some hilarious exchanges.   A fairly recent one though, about the availability of “Fast Charges” is reminiscent of my junior school years.  

 

“There aren’t many fast chargers”

“Yes there are”

“Oh no there aren’t”

“Look at the map - there are Loads”

“Liar, liar, pants on fire”

 

Come on gentleman, surely you are better than this?  If it was the kids having the argument you would tell them to grow up.  As an unbiased observer it seems a “fast charger” is one that uses DC other than AC to charge the vehicle.  If it is DC it is classed as a fast charger.  However, a fast charger does not necessarily mean a quick charger in terms of time taken to charge.  So you are both correct and it is just an issue over the terminology.  

 

Anyway, on on to my post.

 

 

I nearly bought a new EV but didn’t.  This is why.

 

In late 2023 I was in the market for a new car.  Budget was around 800K baht but in the end went slightly over that by buying a Toyota Yaris Cross..  Four months in I am very happy with the car.  Drives well, handles well and meets our requirements perfectly.  Also it is very economical returning an average of 24.4km per litre.  I appreciate though that this is more than a BEV costs to run.  I also have some regrets when I think about the performance difference between the car I bought and the EVs I tested.

 

I was really close to going for a BEV.  I read all the posts in this thread and on others on AN.  I also did a lot of research on other sites.  I test drove 3 BEVs and loved the experience.  Way superior to the traditional cars in terms of acceleration and also handling which, I think, was probably due to a lower centre of gravity.  Ultimately though, I decided against a pure electric model and this was due to the following main issues.

 

1.  Convenience of charging when on a longer trip.

We mainly drive locally as I think most people probably do.  It would be relatively simple to install a charger in the carport and nearly all our charging would be done at home.  So an EV would be fine for 90%+ of the time.  We do a longer (600-1000km) trip several times a year so it is not that often that we would need to charge away from home.  

 

When I thought about this, based in particular on posts from KhunLA to whom I give thanks for the information, It was clear that there were plenty of opportunities to charge up the vehicle, in a reasonable time, when on a longer journey.  So no particular “range anxiety”.  I avoid travelling at busier times as I dislike crowds roads.  Based on my observations I have never seen a queue for a charger at PTT stations where we normally stop.  So no worries about waiting to use a charger.  

 

My main issue was over the timing of when to do a longer stop to charge up the car.  On a longer trip I typically have a pee/smoke stop every hour or so and these take less than 5 minutes.  I will also typically have one approx 30 minute stop to have some food.  However, these are normally quite soon after leaving home when I stop for breakfast, or when I am nearly at my destination when I stop for lunch to avoid arriving at the hotel too early for check-in.  I didn’t want the longer stop to be done when the car wanted to eat rather than when I wanted to.  

 

Ultimately this is a convenience issue,  I could manage the charging very easily within a reasonable period of time.  I just can’t be bothered to.

 

2.  Resale value.

This is a complete unknown.  I would expect to keep any new car for 6 or 7 years and, having been scalped previously when trying to sell a car with manual transmission which hardly anyone wanted, I was somewhat worried about what a 2003 battery EV would be worth in 2009/2010.  I wasn’t worried about the car being unusable as I don’t believe the scare stories about the batteries being useless after several years.  At worse the battery may just lose a low percentage of its ability.  My main concern was over why anyone would want to buy a 2003 BEV when, I am sure, a 2009/2010 BEV will be far superior in terms of its battery capacity and charging ability.  

 

Things in the BEV market still seem to be advancing at a rapid pace so will a 2003 car be effectively obsolete in 6 or 7 years time?

 

3.  Insurance and repair costs.

Another big unknown.  At the moment this doesn’t seem to be an issue but I’m a bit concerned after reading stories about high repair costs for a BEV and the limited number of people trained and qualified to do any repairs needed.  This may, or may not, be an issue going forward.

 

I am at a stage of my life where I hate uncertainty.  I don’t have any worries about getting a Toyota insured or repaired.  I don’t want to introduce a new “worry” in to my life when there are plenty already.

 

 

So, overall, there were just enough niggling little issues preventing me buying a BEV.  It was a close call though and I am sure the next purchase will be a BEV.

 

For me, now, I want to be able to buy a BEV for around 800K.  I want to be able to do a 450 to 500 KM journey without having to charge en-route.  I want the 1000baht per night type hotels to have charging points so I can charge overnight on arrival, rather than having to eff around finding a charging location near the hotel or paying for a more expensive hotel which provides charging points as many already do.  Will these requirements be met by 2009/2010?  I think, probably, yes.

 

So, in conclusion, no EV for me this time.  But keep the thread going because next time I am sure there will be!!

Thanks for the post and congratulations on reading most of the 5,000+ posts

 

The main posters all own EVs unfortunately the topic attracts the haters who feel that their opinions don’t need to be supported by facts. So things can get a little testy.
 

Possibly the best approach is to simply block the trolls and ignore them. However this topic is supposed to be a resource for potential EV owners and it would be a shame if someone was put off by a poster who doesn’t drive an EV claiming that there aren’t enough chargers. 

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Taking your points one by one

 

You claimed nuclear power was not viable. 

McKinsey & Powermag said the only viable H2 option is blue & green, blue is polluting. References already posted.

So that proves nuclear power is not viable, even though it has been used reliably for almost 70 years, and provides most of the electrical power in France? 

 

How does that work? 

 

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You implied it took 25 years to build and nuclear power plant. 

You're American right?  United States: Reactor construction times in the U.S. averaged almost 43 years

Other countries have done better.  Add in the time to industrialise the Hydrogen process which is currently only experimental, we can only guess at that but it's years not months.

35 of the 43 years you are claiming is due to the permitting/political process, not building the time it takes to build a reactor. A plant can be built in five years. 

 

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

When asked about your claim of 25 years to develop pink hydrogen and the cost, you waffled and claimed it would not be developed in 25 years. 

Nonsense, I said that was my opinion as an engineer by training and qualification.

So will it or wont it? And how did you come with the price you stated? 

 

What qualifies you make such claims? 

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

When ask what experts you refer to when you claim "most" agree, you make a glib comment and provide a google search. 

Nonsense, I used artificial intelligence to the analysis and have since provided links to the expert sources.

What source did you provide that supported that most experts agreed with you? 

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

All my claims have been substantiated. 

Now, you tell me how Nuclear Hydrogen is going to be made cheaply?  Where is it currently being made? What is the planned production volume and amortised cost of the plant across the gas per liter?

 

Nuclear plants are very, very expensive.

 

 

 

No, you repeating the same claims over again does not substantiate them. 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

55 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

It doesn’t make sense to me to use the electricity generated by wind and/or solar power to then produce hydrogen that would then have to be worked on (compressed, freezes etc) and then transported over land to thousands of filling stations to be pumped into cars when the electricity produced can just be transmitted over power lines to your home to charge your EV. 
 

Talk about inefficiency.

The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed , it can only be changed to a different form. 

every type of transportation system must convert Chemical energy or electric energy into kinetic energy,

ICE vehicles convert Chemical energy into kinetic energy 

Both BEV and Fuel Cell electric vehicles use electricity to create kinetic energy. the only difference is how the electricity is transmitted, 

  In  BEV it is transmitted through and electric grid system  and wires, to a charging station , An electric grid I might add that can not support total transportation system electrification at it's current state , especially in Thailand. Have you ever looked up? 

  In Fuel cell where the hydrogen is produced via electrolysis, the energy  does not need an electric grid to be transported it is stored in the hydrogen. 

Simply stated you can send the energy via an electric grid, that also has about 17% loss do to resistance and transformers, or you can store the energy in Hydrogen. 

 Arthur Schopenhauer once said, “All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. This was true with BEVs for many of you . All of a sudden many of you who ridiculed , then were opposed and now find their utility self evident. 

And you will all go through the same process with hydrogen. and many of you who might now ridicule and oppose will act as you always knew the self evident utility of it. 

[sirineou]

26 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

What do you start in BEV, you start with electricity and it is not converted into anything else before you use it.

Apologies, no disrespect intended but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue , please refer to the reviouse reply 

[sirineou]

28 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

My reply to you included a citation that directly contradicted your premise 

You might think that, but.....

which premise was that? and then please post to source that contradicted such premice.

If it did I would be happy to eat crow  and  change my opinion publicly in this forum. 

[macahoom]

39 minutes ago, grs90 said:

What an epic topic!

 

I have read through nearly all the posts in this thread although still a few pages to go.  Some great information and some hilarious exchanges.   A fairly recent one though, about the availability of “Fast Charges” is reminiscent of my junior school years.  

 

“There aren’t many fast chargers”

“Yes there are”

“Oh no there aren’t”

“Look at the map - there are Loads”

“Liar, liar, pants on fire”

 

Come on gentleman, surely you are better than this?  If it was the kids having the argument you would tell them to grow up.  As an unbiased observer it seems a “fast charger” is one that uses DC other than AC to charge the vehicle.  If it is DC it is classed as a fast charger.  However, a fast charger does not necessarily mean a quick charger in terms of time taken to charge.  So you are both correct and it is just an issue over the terminology.  

 

Anyway, on on to my post.

 

 

I nearly bought a new EV but didn’t.  This is why.

 

In late 2023 I was in the market for a new car.  Budget was around 800K baht but in the end went slightly over that by buying a Toyota Yaris Cross..  Four months in I am very happy with the car.  Drives well, handles well and meets our requirements perfectly.  Also it is very economical returning an average of 24.4km per litre.  I appreciate though that this is more than a BEV costs to run.  I also have some regrets when I think about the performance difference between the car I bought and the EVs I tested.

 

I was really close to going for a BEV.  I read all the posts in this thread and on others on AN.  I also did a lot of research on other sites.  I test drove 3 BEVs and loved the experience.  Way superior to the traditional cars in terms of acceleration and also handling which, I think, was probably due to a lower centre of gravity.  Ultimately though, I decided against a pure electric model and this was due to the following main issues.

 

1.  Convenience of charging when on a longer trip.

We mainly drive locally as I think most people probably do.  It would be relatively simple to install a charger in the carport and nearly all our charging would be done at home.  So an EV would be fine for 90%+ of the time.  We do a longer (600-1000km) trip several times a year so it is not that often that we would need to charge away from home.  

 

When I thought about this, based in particular on posts from KhunLA to whom I give thanks for the information, It was clear that there were plenty of opportunities to charge up the vehicle, in a reasonable time, when on a longer journey.  So no particular “range anxiety”.  I avoid travelling at busier times as I dislike crowds roads.  Based on my observations I have never seen a queue for a charger at PTT stations where we normally stop.  So no worries about waiting to use a charger.  

 

My main issue was over the timing of when to do a longer stop to charge up the car.  On a longer trip I typically have a pee/smoke stop every hour or so and these take less than 5 minutes.  I will also typically have one approx 30 minute stop to have some food.  However, these are normally quite soon after leaving home when I stop for breakfast, or when I am nearly at my destination when I stop for lunch to avoid arriving at the hotel too early for check-in.  I didn’t want the longer stop to be done when the car wanted to eat rather than when I wanted to.  

 

Ultimately this is a convenience issue,  I could manage the charging very easily within a reasonable period of time.  I just can’t be bothered to.

 

2.  Resale value.

This is a complete unknown.  I would expect to keep any new car for 6 or 7 years and, having been scalped previously when trying to sell a car with manual transmission which hardly anyone wanted, I was somewhat worried about what a 2003 battery EV would be worth in 2009/2010.  I wasn’t worried about the car being unusable as I don’t believe the scare stories about the batteries being useless after several years.  At worse the battery may just lose a low percentage of its ability.  My main concern was over why anyone would want to buy a 2003 BEV when, I am sure, a 2009/2010 BEV will be far superior in terms of its battery capacity and charging ability.  

 

Things in the BEV market still seem to be advancing at a rapid pace so will a 2003 car be effectively obsolete in 6 or 7 years time?

 

3.  Insurance and repair costs.

Another big unknown.  At the moment this doesn’t seem to be an issue but I’m a bit concerned after reading stories about high repair costs for a BEV and the limited number of people trained and qualified to do any repairs needed.  This may, or may not, be an issue going forward.

 

I am at a stage of my life where I hate uncertainty.  I don’t have any worries about getting a Toyota insured or repaired.  I don’t want to introduce a new “worry” in to my life when there are plenty already.

 

 

So, overall, there were just enough niggling little issues preventing me buying a BEV.  It was a close call though and I am sure the next purchase will be a BEV.

 

For me, now, I want to be able to buy a BEV for around 800K.  I want to be able to do a 450 to 500 KM journey without having to charge en-route.  I want the 1000baht per night type hotels to have charging points so I can charge overnight on arrival, rather than having to eff around finding a charging location near the hotel or paying for a more expensive hotel which provides charging points as many already do.  Will these requirements be met by 2009/2010?  I think, probably, yes.

 

So, in conclusion, no EV for me this time.  But keep the thread going because next time I am sure there will be!!

 

Is your real name Dr. Who?

[Bandersnatch]

sirineou is clearly a troll so will be added to my block list and will be ignored 

[JBChiangRai]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

To be fair, something has to be converted to electricity, it then the electivity has to be used to charge the battery. and then the battery has to provide the electricity to power the vehicle. 

 

Right now, most EV's are powered by electricity generated by fossil fuel.

 

ICEV burn fossil fuel to power the vehicle directly. 

 

Sunlight can be converted into electricity, it goes straight into your car.

Sunlight can be converted to electricity, it is then used to make Hydrogen

 

Let's shorten those to

Sunlight can be converted into electricity, it goes straight into your car.

Sunlight can be converted to electricity, it is then used to make Hydrogen

 

Remove the commonalities

Electricity goes straight into your car (no more steps after this)

Electricity makes Hydrogen  (lots more steps after this)

 

 

13 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So that proves nuclear power is not viable, even though it has been used reliably for almost 70 years, and provides most of the electrical power in France? 

 

How does that work? 

 

35 of the 43 years you are claiming is due to the permitting/political process, not building the time it takes to build a reactor. A plant can be built in five years. 

 

So will it or wont it? And how did you come with the price you stated? 

 

What qualifies you make such claims? 

What source did you provide that supported that most experts agreed with you? 

 

No, you repeating the same claims over again does not substantiate them. 

 

 

 

 

I never said Nuclear Energy was not viable.  I said Hydrogen produced through nuclear energy is not viable (to be precise I said too expensive), actually it doesn't exist anywhere yet either.

 

I have already posted my sources, try reading them, you are clutching at straws.

 

One of the sources I posted said In the race toward a more sustainable future, there is a burgeoning demand for clean fuels, with green hydrogen taking center stage. “The Green Hydrogen Market, valued at $676 million in 2022, is anticipated to experience an extraordinary CAGR [compound annual growth rate] of 61.0% from 2022 to 2027,” Shubhendu Tripathi, a senior research analyst at MarketandMarkets, told POWER. 

 

It's clear to me you are being obtuse, I have posted expert opinions, the sources they came from and yet you go round in circles.  You're trolling.

 

 

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

An electric grid I might add that can not support total transportation system electrification at it's current state , especially in Thailand. Have you ever looked up? 

 

 

  In Fuel cell where the hydrogen is produced via electrolysis, the energy  does not need an electric grid to be transported it is stored in the hydrogen. 

Simply stated you can send the energy via an electric grid, that also has about 17% loss do to resistance and transformers, or you can store the energy in Hydrogen. 

 

 

I've separated your points.  first point, an EV uses on average 4 kWhrs of electricity per day, it's not very much.  If you deliver new EV's at the rate of demand, there is no issue in the grid coping, it's being expanded all the time.

 

Second point. You are missing the point, how does the hydrogen get into your car?  (A) With a BEV it goes through the grid.  Hydrogen has to be made thru (Bi) Electrolysis (Bii) compressed at point of source and (Biii) pumped into road/train freight.  They have to be (Biv)  driven to fuel stations. It has to be (Bv) pumped into storage tanks.  It has to be (Bvi) compressed with pumps to get it into your car.  At this point (Bi+Bii+Biii+Biv+Bv+Bvi) it's the same result of the BEV (A alone) we just described.

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Sunlight can be converted into electricity, it goes straight into your car.

Yea that's true with solar cell, but it does not go straight into your car it goes straight into your battery where it is stored ,and from there to your car,

 

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Sunlight can be converted to electricity, it is then used to make Hydrogen

yes it can, and then it is converted to hydrogen, but not the only way to make release hydrogen from oxygen,  instead of the electric energy being stored in your car battery it is stored in the hydrogen,

13 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Sunlight can be converted into electricity, it goes straight into your car.

Sunlight can be converted to electricity, it is then used to make Hydrogen

No it goes into your battery in the car.  Hydrogen is the battery. that goes in your car  The only different is how energy is transported to your car. with electricity it is produced in an electric generating plant  and transmitted via an electric grid that has a 17% loss . 17% percent of the electric energy produced is lost to resistance and transformers. Let me repeat that because it is so important. 17% of electricity produced is lost in transmission!! To that add the inability of the grid to handle 100% electrification. 

 

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Electricity goes straight into your car (no more steps after this)

Electricity makes Hydrogen  (lots more steps after this)

No there are many steps from generation to delivery in your car. 

In addition to the transmission challenges , batteries are very heavy. 

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I never said Nuclear Energy was not viable.  I said Hydrogen produced through nuclear energy is not viable (to be precise I said too expensive), actually it doesn't exist anywhere yet either.

says who? Maybe it is I don't know but the article I provided says hydrogen will be generated from heat waste, with little electricity.

 

24 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have already posted my sources, try reading them, you are clutching at straws.

 

One of the sources I posted said In the race toward a more sustainable future, there is a burgeoning demand for clean fuels, with green hydrogen taking center stage. “The Green Hydrogen Market, valued at $676 million in 2022, is anticipated to experience an extraordinary CAGR [compound annual growth rate] of 61.0% from 2022 to 2027,” Shubhendu Tripathi, a senior research analyst at MarketandMarkets, told POWER. 

  ..It is certainly a source. But I a honest, I don't understand what it proves other than that the demand for Hydrogen is increasing, which is also my point. 

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It's clear to me you are being obtuse, I have posted expert opinions, the sources they came from and yet you go round in circles.  You're trolling.

I really dot understand your point. what is it? can you state it in a sentence? . I am really trying to understand what your point is. 

and am refraining from editorialise. 

30 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I've separated your points.  first point, an EV uses on average 4 kWhrs of electricity per day, it's not very much.  If you deliver new EV's at the rate of demand, there is no issue in the grid coping, it's being expanded all the time.

simply google "is there an issue to the grid with ev charging " hundreds of returns all saying that it does . 

Here is the first one "Impact on supply and demand balance: Unregulated EV charging can amplify the peak demand on the grid, particularly when vehicle charging coincides with existing peak loads. This may overburden the transmission system and critical components of the distribution network, such as transformers and cables. "

https://fr.farnell.com/the-effects-of-electric-vehicle-charging-on-the-power-grid-trc-ar?ICID=I-CT-TECH-RES-FC-THE_EFFECTS_OF_ELECTRIC_VEHICLE_CHARGING_STATIONS-TC-0000667-MAR_24-WF3575385#:~:text=Impact on supply and demand,such as transformers and cables.

 

and it seems that you choose to ignore the Transitional loss. 

36 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Second point. You are missing the point, how does the hydrogen get into your car? 

it would be pumped like gasoline in a gas station. There will be  a transportation infustracture for hydrogen as it is for electricity. Electricity does not magically appear at your outlet. 

   also you fail to consider many other reasons why hydrogen will win out.  Batteries are heavy. can't be used for airplanes and trucks , it's the payload problem an the F=ma issue. which is what started this conversation. 

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, and as such available to any country. So we have the political issue ,China dominates battery production at this time. 

Hydrogen can be clean , where the production of electricity has its pollution issues, unless we burn hydrogen or go nuclear, 

Anyway thank you for engaging me in this conversation, regrettably I got to g because I got things to do, so don't be insulted if I dont unswere any more quotes. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Yea that's true with solar cell, but it does not go straight into your car it goes straight into your battery where it is stored ,and from there to your car,

 

yes it can, and then it is converted to hydrogen, but not the only way to make release hydrogen from oxygen,  instead of the electric energy being stored in your car battery it is stored in the hydrogen,

No it goes into your battery in the car.  Hydrogen is the battery. that goes in your car  The only different is how energy is transported to your car. with electricity it is produced in an electric generating plant  and transmitted via an electric grid that has a 17% loss . 17% percent of the electric energy produced is lost to resistance and transformers. Let me repeat that because it is so important. 17% of electricity produced is lost in transmission!! To that add the inability of the grid to handle 100% electrification. 

 

No there are many steps from generation to delivery in your car. 

In addition to the transmission challenges , batteries are very heavy. 

says who? Maybe it is I don't know but the article I provided says hydrogen will be generated from heat waste, with little electricity.

 

  ..It is certainly a source. But I a honest, I don't understand what it proves other than that the demand for Hydrogen is increasing, which is also my point. 

I really dot understand your point. what is it? can you state it in a sentence? . I am really trying to understand what your point is. 

and am refraining from editorialise. 

simply google "is there an issue to the grid with ev charging " hundreds of returns all saying that it does . 

Here is the first one "Impact on supply and demand balance: Unregulated EV charging can amplify the peak demand on the grid, particularly when vehicle charging coincides with existing peak loads. This may overburden the transmission system and critical components of the distribution network, such as transformers and cables. "

https://fr.farnell.com/the-effects-of-electric-vehicle-charging-on-the-power-grid-trc-ar?ICID=I-CT-TECH-RES-FC-THE_EFFECTS_OF_ELECTRIC_VEHICLE_CHARGING_STATIONS-TC-0000667-MAR_24-WF3575385#:~:text=Impact on supply and demand,such as transformers and cables.

 

and it seems that you choose to ignore the Transitional loss. 

it would be pumped like gasoline in a gas station. There will be  a transportation infustracture for hydrogen as it is for electricity. Electricity does not magically appear at your outlet. 

   also you fail to consider many other reasons why hydrogen will win out.  Batteries are heavy. can't be used for airplanes and trucks , it's the payload problem an the F=ma issue. which is what started this conversation. 

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, and as such available to any country. So we have the political issue ,China dominates battery production at this time. 

Hydrogen can be clean , where the production of electricity has its pollution issues, unless we burn hydrogen or go nuclear, 

Anyway thank you for engaging me in this conversation, regrettably I got to g because I got things to do, so don't be insulted if I dont unswere any more quotes. 

 

 

I am going to go back to the analysis by McKinsey previously posted.

 

They do say Hydrogen will start to be used for transportation "from 2040", they also say it will be "fuel cell electric vehicles in long-haul".  These guys are experts and they have done the analysis, they do not think it's going to be general passenger cars.

 

They also say that the transition is entirely across to clean hydrogen, mostly green hydrogen i.e. electrolysis.

 

On the subject of losses, yes the grid has losses. but you do magically put electricity in at one end and it comes out at the other (minus the losses), it's instantaneous.  Hydrogen is part of the battery in a FCEV, the other part is the Fuel Cell, in a BEV it's the battery alone.  I have explained the losses in powering a FCEV, they are significantly more than a BEV, and since the starting point for both types of vehicle is Electricity and so is the ending point, that is why Hydrogen has to be more expensive.

 

Many countries consumers have trialed Hydrogen and they don't like it.

 

Your article about pink hydrogen from Nuclear, McKinsey aren't forecasting any of that in their Hydrogen Outlook, I think they know something...

Edited April 5 by JBChiangRai
correct date

[Eloquent pilgrim]

 

Caption from the Times today. The bubble has well and truly burst in the UK. Thailand do not lead, they follow, so it will happen here before too long. After the initial sales, driven by incentives and tax initiatives for companies, EV’s now have to sell on their merits, and the public are saying, nah.

 

Most of the limited number of private EV purchases in the UK now, are small models bought by affluent second car families that use them to virtue signal on their 10 kilometre supermarket trip; using their V8’s for any journey in excess of 60 kilometres.

 

Hilarious to see the ‘green’ virtue signalling from people buying their cars made in a country that is responsible for 30% of the World’s CO2 emissions.

 

History will record with incredulity that so many people (and large companies) fell for the largest confidence trick of the 21st century … if you were mug enough to buy one, sell it now while you still can¯\_(ツ)_/¯