Friday 13th: Instructor shot dead at rifle range - beginner student thought it wasn't a live round

[johncat1]

What were bullets, live or dummy doing on the floor ?  Sounds like a very sloppy shooting range with poor safety. It should be closed down until they improve their safety.  Years ago I caught young students throwing bullets at each other at a school Later when they were checked they turned out to be live rounds the students picked up off the ground at a POLICE shooting range. 

[Jonathan Swift]

8 hours ago, AwwYesNice1 said:

Or even had the guy pointed anywhere but downrange.

 

 

Whatever the reason, the shooter was obviously untrained and unschooled in the most basic handling of firearms, including some basic schooling on ammunition. Like, "you see this lead projectile on the end here? That's what comes out the barrel and can kill you". And like you said, NEVER point the gun ANYWHERE but at a target; NEVER put your finger on the trigger until time to shoot, treat EVERY gun as though it were loaded with a LIVE ROUND. Sadly, as long as people have guns, or even just use them at firing ranges for fun, these tragedies will happen. Some people will just never grasp that these are not just toys.

[cjinchiangrai]

6 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

And the unfortunate victim who somehow got in front of a gun…at a gun range … huge no no. ????

heart attack from shock ? Nobody dies from a 9 mm round to the shoulder! it surely must have deflected to heart ? A 7.62 or 50 cal hit is certainly possible to kill though, anywhere , from massive kinetic energy. 

 

If you hit the artery, they can bleed out in seconds. This is true for most of the body. Guns are intended to kill people and they are very effective.

[Jonathan Swift]

8 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

My guess is it was due to being shot. 

Not funny. How old are you? The autopsy will answer such questions as why a shoulder wound which one would not consider typically deadly would have killed her. It would determine whether an artery was severed and he bled out too quickly, or it might raise valid questions as to the emergency care. If a subclavian artery was hit the bleeding would be unstoppable short of surgery or military level intervention. It would definitively rule on the bullet trajectory, indicating how the shooter was positioned, it could figure in whether the shooter was culpable, and specifically state the cause of death such as shock and repiratory/heart failure from rapid blood loss. Autopsies are also a tool for the education of medical professionals. Now, do you feel just a LITTLE bit smarter and less inclined to joke about human tragedies? 

[Jonathan Swift]

9 hours ago, Henryford said:

Even if it was a dummy why did she aim at the instructor and fire?

People see guns in movies and video games and think they are toys until taught otherwise

[Jonathan Swift]

9 hours ago, darksidedog said:

I guess the instructor never told her the very first rule of never pointing a gun at anyone, whether it is loaded or not.

"Treat every gun as if it is loaded, never put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire" etc. Maybe she missed the first day of instruction, maybe she wasn't even taking the course and was just there for fun, who knows?

[Jonathan Swift]

8 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

She said she thought that it was a dummy round after picking up a bullet mixed with others on the floor, reported Thai Rath. She was taken to the police station for questioning but as yet no charges have been filed. 

 

Huh? Even if she thought it was a "dummy round", why would she be pointing the gun at the instructor, then firing the gun? And why would a gun have blanks at a firing range? So many unanswered questions. Looks like manslaughter to me. 

Something similar to involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide. She's 50 years old, understands right from wrong, knows that guns kill, culpable negligence. But we don't know what Thai law does with such things. A substantial payment to the family?

[ChrisY1]

9 hours ago, Henryford said:

Even if it was a dummy why did she aim at the instructor and fire?

She was a student....she was learning, maybe never handled a gun before, and it appears that the instructor didn't instruct!

[Jonathan Swift]

7 hours ago, connda said:

They are real.  They are called "snap caps."  You can use them for dry firing, or they can be useful when working with a student to get them use to clearing an unexpected misfire. 
 

I think it's more likely that she meant blanks, not knowing what a blank really looks like, somehow the terminology got mixed up in translation. 

[vinci]

pointing a gun and finger on trigger aside, people do make mistake, i get it, but the fact is she literally pull the trigger, who does that

[Jonathan Swift]

31 minutes ago, johncat1 said:

What were bullets, live or dummy doing on the floor ?  Sounds like a very sloppy shooting range with poor safety. It should be closed down until they improve their safety.  Years ago I caught young students throwing bullets at each other at a school Later when they were checked they turned out to be live rounds the students picked up off the ground at a POLICE shooting range. 

I agree, close it down, investigate, and then investigate other ranges for safety. Some people enter into businesses who are simply not responsible enough or qualified. Happens in all professions, some deadly and some not. 

[Andre0720]

I was a student in a shooting range when I was 11 or 12. 22 caliber, 303 rifle frame.

At that age, my level of awareness was already greater than of this Thai woman.

Sad.

 

 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

In Thailand they refer to the copper plated bullets as live or operation bullets, and the uncoated as training bullets. I assume the dummy is a mistranslation. I guess the reason is that the coated bullets are more expensive and therefore you wouldn't want to water them for training...

That said, as far as I'm concerned there are only 2 rules in regards to guns:

1. If you don't know how to handle one, don't touch it.

2. Never ever aim a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot at. Not even a toy gun.

 

"Training" bullets...

 

Real bullet...

 

 

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

In Thailand they refer to the copper plated bullets as live or operation bullets, and the uncoated as training bullets. I assume the dummy is a mistranslation. I guess the reason is that the coated bullets are more expensive and therefore you wouldn't want to water them for training...

That said, as far as I'm concerned there are only 2 rules in regards to guns:

1. If you don't know how to handle one, don't touch it.

2. Never ever aim a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot at. Not even a toy gun.

 

"Training" bullets...

 

Real bullet...

 

You are right that the lead round nosed semi auto live rounds are referred to as training or practice rounds in Thailand, as they cheaper and under powered but that makes no difference in 25 metre ranges. The copper nosed rounds are referred as real bullets.  Actually a ridiculous nomenclature that implies the lead nosed rounds are not dangerous.  The Navy range in Bangkok actually requires to see your permit, if you "real bullets" but not if you buy "practice bullets" consistent with this nonsensical view.  Before copper nosed bullets there were only lead nosed bullets and, as all the guys in the Tombstone cemetery in the Wild West can attest, these practice rounds are lethal.

 

Having said all that the Thai version of the police press release reprinted by every one of the news outlets specified that practice dummy rounds were used, even though we can perhaps take the press release with a grain of salt.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

There are a number of veins and arteries running to and through the shoulder, chief among them the brachial artery. Sever any one of them, especially the brachial artery and you can bleed out very quickly.

 

In the early 80s a lone Army undercover officer took down 3 IRA terrorists, all tooled up with armalites who had laid an ambush for him in Londonderry. His only weapon was a 9mm Browning, the standard side arm back then.

 

Never underestimate the ability of any weapon.

Or the person holding it.

[Formaleins]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

And 'students' stotally supervised at all times and not allowed to just pick up rounds from the floor an assume anything!

 

I recall my weapons training / live firing in the early days of national service training. Totally structured and supervised. Students not allowed to do anything except exactly what they were told to do and supervised to do. And after every round fired students cannot move at all until things are checked and then students ordered to put the pistol/rifle down and before they do that a strict triple reminder where the barrel must be pointed at all times.

 

This incident sounds like a picnic and a recipe for didaster. 

Indeed! In the UK you had to make a declaration after practice, somewhere on the lines of not having live rounds or spent ammo - every empty case and round had to be accounted for

[billd766]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Reads like you have never been trained in the use of firearms, the same as this lady.

The blame lays squarely on the shoulders of the deceased...

IMHO the blame lies squarely with the Range master. From the first moment of ANY students at the range the Range master is in total charge. He (or she) RUNS that range, and from the first moment the word is SAFETY, followed by, NEVER NEVER point a weapon at anybody unless you intend to kill them.

 

They should be taught, how to handle a weapon, how to load and unload the weapon, what to do when it jams and you can clear it and also when you can't clear it. They will be given a certain number of rounds and that is all they will be allowed. NO picking up ammunition, live or blank and reloading the weapon.

 

At the end of the session, you drop the magazine out, work the action 5 times, always pointing the weapon down range, and then cock, hook and look. Place your thumb in the chamber and check to see light on your thumb nail. If you see it the is nothing up the spout.

 

Lay the weapon down pointing down range with the magazine beside it and wait for the Range Master to check it. The last part is clean the weapon after inspection if it isn't your weapon and even if it is your weapon.. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by billd766
Added extra text

[Purdey]

But.. but guns dont kill people. Bullets kill people.

[Neeranam]

The lady wasn't a dummy, she got rid of someone whilst everyone thinks it was accidental. 

[vandeventer]

9 hours ago, Henryford said:

Even if it was a dummy why did she aim at the instructor and fire?

Sounds like she was trying to scare him, my bet it they were more than friends, but the whole thing wrong as it was loaded

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

There are a number of veins and arteries running to and through the shoulder, chief among them the brachial artery. Sever any one of them, especially the brachial artery and you can bleed out very quickly.

 

In the early 80s a lone Army undercover officer took down 3 IRA terrorists, all tooled up with armalites who had laid an ambush for him in Londonderry. His only weapon was a 9mm Browning, the standard side arm back then.

 

Never underestimate the ability of any weapon.

9mm  Browning Hi-Power the first firearm I ever owned. An effective military side arm and used to be very popular with civilian shooters in the US but now there are many other choices. It has a very heavy, gritty trigger but that's OK for a service weapon. It has a magazine disconnector that prevents it from firing without the magazine in, to prevent accidents when soldiers think it's safe because they removed the mag without taking into account a round still up the spout. This feature makes the trigger even gritter but can be removed if you know how. This feature was added at the request of the French army who placed a large provisional order during the design stage but never actually bought it. The Germans took over over the FN factory in Belgium in WW2 and ramped up the production of Browning HPs for their own use.  They were in service with the British army for about 30 years.

[Dogmatix]

Instructor Bo going for his Darwin award. Let's hope he hasn't procreated yet.

[Orinoco]

50 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Instructor Bo going for his Darwin award. Let's hope he hasn't procreated yet.

Now Even More Amazing Thailand Has It All

Retards on the job.

[CLUBBER]

10 hours ago, Reposed said:

The gun is always loaded.

Exactly always treat a firearm as if it was loaded ! The first and most important rule !

[sungod]

9 hours ago, connda said:

They are real.  They are called "snap caps."  You can use them for dry firing, or they can be useful when working with a student to get them use to clearing an unexpected misfire. 

Never seen a 'snap cap' on a live range.

[Flink]

11 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

I own handguns. I shoot IDPA and have been to many ranges with many instructors, and never have I used or even seen a "dummy" round. The gun is either loaded or it's not. Your job is to know which it is. Why would this even happen? This confusion about the round being live or not. Or is the only dummy here the person who shot the instructor.

She knew the gun was loaded because she says she picked the round up off the floor. The Questions that need answering are:

1. Why did she load it into the gun.

2. What the hell was the instructor doing that he didn't see her load the gun.

3. Why was she even handling the gun if she hadn't yet learned not to point it at anything she didn't plan to kill.

I've been to that range and it's not a big range, so somebody must have seen her load it and aim at the guy.

[sungod]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

The last time I handled a weapon was in 1983 and I never want to handle one again. Its sole purpose is to kill and nothing else.

Think you were in the wrong job, whatever that was.

[Flink]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

9mm  Browning Hi-Power the first firearm I ever owned. An effective military side arm and used to be very popular with civilian shooters in the US but now there are many other choices. It has a very heavy, gritty trigger but that's OK for a service weapon. It has a magazine disconnector that prevents it from firing without the magazine in, to prevent accidents when soldiers think it's safe because they removed the mag without taking into account a round still up the spout. This feature makes the trigger even gritter but can be removed if you know how. This feature was added at the request of the French army who placed a large provisional order during the design stage but never actually bought it. The Germans took over over the FN factory in Belgium in WW2 and ramped up the production of Browning HPs for their own use.  They were in service with the British army for about 30 years.

And the rest! I was still carrying one on operational tours well into the 90's. In fact they kept using it until the Glock 17 came in in 2013. 

[Harry Black]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

IMHO the blame lies squarely with the Range master. From the first moment of ANY students at the range the Range master is in total charge. He (or she) RUNS that range, and from the first moment the word is SAFETY, followed by, NEVER NEVER point a weapon at anybody unless you intend to kill them.

 

They should be taught, how to handle a weapon, how to load and unload the weapon, what to do when it jams and you can clear it and also when you can't clear it. They will be given a certain number of rounds and that is all they will be allowed. NO picking up ammunition, live or blank and reloading the weapon.

 

At the end of the session, you drop the magazine out, work the action 5 times, always pointing the weapon down range, and then cock, hook and look. Place your thumb in the chamber and check to see light on your thumb nail. If you see it the is nothing up the spout.

 

Lay the weapon down pointing down range with the magazine beside it and wait for the Range Master to check it. The last part is clean the weapon after inspection if it isn't your weapon and even if it is your weapon.. 

Thank god i have never been on a range with you! Your posts depict someone who should have never been given a firearm in your life. strictly amateur and dangerous.

 

I laughed my ass off when you said the 'range master' should clear your stoppages, were you in the navy or RAF?????

 

I'd always prefer to work with adults and signal when someone asked me to show when clear.

[Canuckluck]

They're going to have a hard time blaming this one on Covid...

[Damrongsak]

9 hours ago, connda said:

They are real.  They are called "snap caps."  You can use them for dry firing, or they can be useful when working with a student to get them use to clearing an unexpected misfire. 
 

There are various sorts of dummy rounds in addition to snap caps.  Many are easily distinguishable from live rounds.  But some are not, especially to a newbie. Still no excuses for loading and pulling the trigger with the gun pointed at someone.   That range needs individual shooting stalls for safety.