LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[stat]

9 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Indeed.

 

It does thou have me pondering - if the LTR visa ends up having its 'no taxation on foreign income' benefit rescinded (which I do not believe will happen), but to SPECULATE,  if rescinded, what is the approach of the different countries around the world, if one spends less than 180 day in each country?

 

ie say 175 days in Thailand, 170 days in country-A (which taxes residents who are > 182 days in country) and 20-days in country-B (which taxes residents who are > 182 days in country) .  In such a hypothetical scenario, none of the 3 countries is one present long enough to be considered a taxation resident. 

 

For those who structured their finances/income sources, such that that they have minimized their taxation, is that a viable approach? 

 

I suspect in such a hypothetical scenario, one needs to specify still, the location of one's country of residence for various forms when applying for various items (maybe obtaining Visas and such), and one could still (in any such forms) state Thailand is one's residence (for living in more than other countries) but for taxation, Thailand may not be one's tax residency.

 

This does not apply to me, as I am pretty much covered by Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs) for my foreign sourced income (and I still have faith in the LTR), but it may be approach for some who don't obtain a benefit from DTAs (who are concerned the LTR could be impacted).

Perfectly viable to live in 3 countries and not be a tax resident in one of them. Applying for a visa should be hassle free as they usually ask to state a residence not a tax residence. However you should not claim preferrential tax rates that are stipulated in DBAs as you do not have a tax residence, if the banks check these things is another matter.

[Presnock]

9 hours ago, stat said:

I was pointing out that you initial post was wrong and that there are legally binding contracts and documents that a new government cannot change. So your claim that those never exist is just plain wong.  Just because you have never heard of it does not indicate that these do not exist.

 

Example:

 

https://www.bzst.de/DE/Unternehmen/VerbindlicheAuskuenfte/verbindliche_auskuenfte_node.html#js-toc-entry4

 

 

 

Again that BOI is not willing to say something just indicates how bad the situation for us expats can get.

 

As much as I like the US, some of their citizens seem to be completly unaware how different the rest of the world works or does not. 😉

 

9 hours ago, stat said:

I was pointing out that you initial post was wrong and that there are legally binding contracts and documents that a new government cannot change. So your claim that those never exist is just plain wong.  Just because you have never heard of it does not indicate that these do not exist.

 

Example:

 

https://www.bzst.de/DE/Unternehmen/VerbindlicheAuskuenfte/verbindliche_auskuenfte_node.html#js-toc-entry4

 

 

 

Again that BOI is not willing to say something just indicates how bad the situation for us expats can get.

 

As much as I like the US, some of their citizens seem to be completly unaware how different the rest of the world works or does not. 😉

Yes I admit to ignorance of laws in other countries...and I opine often based on the laws in the US.  Sorry but Thailand is like the US in that any new government can change whatever they want in their constitution, their tax laws or whatever.  The BOI has no more of an idea of what may change than we expats do.  On top of that, the current govt may not last either.  In any case I do wish the best for all of us.  I retired here because I love Thailand - I realize that like anywhere else, not all is perfect but it sure beats life in much of the US right now.

[stat]

11 hours ago, Presnock said:

 

Yes I admit to ignorance of laws in other countries...and I opine often based on the laws in the US.  Sorry but Thailand is like the US in that any new government can change whatever they want in their constitution, their tax laws or whatever.  The BOI has no more of an idea of what may change than we expats do.  On top of that, the current govt may not last either.  In any case I do wish the best for all of us.  I retired here because I love Thailand - I realize that like anywhere else, not all is perfect but it sure beats life in much of the US right now.

Even the US acknowledges international law and treat DTA like US law.

 

https://2001-2009.state.gov/s/l/rls/86123.htm

 

The US is one of the few countries that could say  "I do not care " but even they do care and oblige to their international agreements like DTAs, investment agreements etc.

 

It is very rare that a law is changed retroactively worldwide so if TH/BOI states in a royal degree all income is tax exempt in 2025 this is as sure as it gets, they could do it if they want to, but apparently they do not want to do it.

 

Of course you are right and they could ruin their international standing and do what they want renegging on their promises and international treatments but very few governments have ever done it.

 

 

 

 

[Presnock]

37 minutes ago, stat said:

Even the US acknowledges international law and treat DTA like US law.

 

https://2001-2009.state.gov/s/l/rls/86123.htm

 

The US is one of the few countries that could say  "I do not care " but even they do care and oblige to their international agreements like DTAs, investment agreements etc.

 

It is very rare that a law is changed retroactively worldwide so if TH/BOI states in a royal degree all income is tax exempt in 2025 this is as sure as it gets, they could do it if they want to, but apparently they do not want to do it.

 

Of course you are right and they could ruin their international standing and do what they want renegging on their promises and international treatments but very few governments have ever done it.

 

 

 

 

That is because DTA are treaties between two countries and if one country decides they don't like it, they have need to advise 6 months in advance that they are cancelling it.  But i think that the DTA with Thailand and the 61 countries will remain in effect and from all that I have heard the DTA will override any local tax law.  AS for the exemption by royal decree, it states that the DIRGEN of the revenue department could wipe that out too but I also don't think that will happen unless they grandfather all those already with an LTR.

 Hopefully, the Revenue Dept might make a clarifying statement on the worldwide income taxation plans but...who knows, daily it seems more and more complaints about the current government from other branches of the government so who knows if they will no fade away and a new govt might come to power with really different ideas.  Best of luck to all. 

[stat]

5 hours ago, Presnock said:

That is because DTA are treaties between two countries and if one country decides they don't like it, they have need to advise 6 months in advance that they are cancelling it.  But i think that the DTA with Thailand and the 61 countries will remain in effect and from all that I have heard the DTA will override any local tax law.  AS for the exemption by royal decree, it states that the DIRGEN of the revenue department could wipe that out too but I also don't think that will happen unless they grandfather all those already with an LTR.

 Hopefully, the Revenue Dept might make a clarifying statement on the worldwide income taxation plans but...who knows, daily it seems more and more complaints about the current government from other branches of the government so who knows if they will no fade away and a new govt might come to power with really different ideas.  Best of luck to all. 

It is my understanding that if they want to implement ww taxation they must announce before Jan 1st 2025.

 

They could make a waterproof announcement regarding the tax exemption for LTR in theory but I think we all agree that this is unlikely.

 

This is why I hoped for that lots of people would ask BOI so that first BOI understands the necesity of a clarification and b asks the right people for a clarification (TRD, governement) etc.

 

It would really be a shame if the LTR were to be completly tax exempt and people left TH because no clarification was given.

 

Godspeed!

[Presnock]

6 hours ago, stat said:

It is my understanding that if they want to implement ww taxation they must announce before Jan 1st 2025.

 

They could make a waterproof announcement regarding the tax exemption for LTR in theory but I think we all agree that this is unlikely.

 

This is why I hoped for that lots of people would ask BOI so that first BOI understands the necesity of a clarification and b asks the right people for a clarification (TRD, governement) etc.

 

It would really be a shame if the LTR were to be completly tax exempt and people left TH because no clarification was given.

 

Godspeed!

 

6 hours ago, stat said:

It is my understanding that if they want to implement ww taxation they must announce before Jan 1st 2025.

 

They could make a waterproof announcement regarding the tax exemption for LTR in theory but I think we all agree that this is unlikely.

 

This is why I hoped for that lots of people would ask BOI so that first BOI understands the necesity of a clarification and b asks the right people for a clarification (TRD, governement) etc.

 

It would really be a shame if the LTR were to be completly tax exempt and people left TH because no clarification was given.

 

Godspeed!

Totally agre with you on this.  I think that the DIR GEN according to the royal decree exemption for the LTR could drop that exemption but that she really doesn't have that power as it rests with the senior folks of the govt due to the ramifications.  As such, and based on how  they seem to be really trying to get more people to come here and SPEND money, the govt may decide to let that exemption remain for now.  In addition, since the elite visa is now overpriced based on benefits, the govt may also drop the price back to what it was previously.  My opinions only of course but sure hope they decide to provide something for the expats who have been spending lots of money for them and their families here and many of those for quite some time...like me 20+ years, house, cars, schools - daughter still in local college.  But bottom line is TIT so who knows what will happen.  Best of luck to all.

[khunjeff]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

I think that the DIR GEN according to the royal decree exemption for the LTR could drop that exemption

 

Could you tell me where you're reading that? The decree states that certain remitted income is exempt from taxation for some LTR holders, and that the DIRGEN of the Revenue Dept can set rules and conditions for that exemption. It would seem bizarre if one of those rules for exemption could be "sorry, there aren't any exemptions." It's up to the Department and the Ministry of Finance to implement the decree, but I don't see that they have the authority to simply overrule it. Am I missing something?

[stat]

5 hours ago, khunjeff said:

 

Could you tell me where you're reading that? The decree states that certain remitted income is exempt from taxation for some LTR holders, and that the DIRGEN of the Revenue Dept can set rules and conditions for that exemption. It would seem bizarre if one of those rules for exemption could be "sorry, there aren't any exemptions." It's up to the Department and the Ministry of Finance to implement the decree, but I don't see that they have the authority to simply overrule it. Am I missing something?

I agree with Presnok: They COULD simply draw up some rules that defacto makes the exemption worthless as you cannot provide the documents that give you the exemption. For example provide a document from your government that the remitted amount has been taxed. Unlikely but possible. My gut feeling is that you will be able to simply self assess and no one will make a fuss about it, but that is far from certain or a safe way for people with 6 digit capital income p.a. I fear there will be no watertight clarification from TRD in the near future neither for the LTR visa nor for the taxation questions in general.

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, khunjeff said:

 

Could you tell me where you're reading that? The decree states that certain remitted income is exempt from taxation for some LTR holders, and that the DIRGEN of the Revenue Dept can set rules and conditions for that exemption. It would seem bizarre if one of those rules for exemption could be "sorry, there aren't any exemptions." It's up to the Department and the Ministry of Finance to implement the decree, but I don't see that they have the authority to simply overrule it. Am I missing something?

I think that when I was reading in the revenue department (English) and read the royal decree about the exemption and it mentioned something about the DIRGEN could stop the exemption.  I will check again and advise if I was incorrect.

[Presnock]

7 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I think that when I was reading in the revenue department (English) and read the royal decree about the exemption and it mentioned something about the DIRGEN could stop the exemption.  I will check again and advise if I was incorrect.

KHUNJEFF - I just reread the royal decree and I was mistaken in my original comment about the DIR GEN could drop it...but only if any of the qualifications were not met then for that year the remitted funds would not be tax free.  MY mistake maybe due to old age and a rough day.  Sorry.

[Presnock]

22 hours ago, Presnock said:

That is because DTA are treaties between two countries and if one country decides they don't like it, they have need to advise 6 months in advance that they are cancelling it.  But i think that the DTA with Thailand and the 61 countries will remain in effect and from all that I have heard the DTA will override any local tax law.  AS for the exemption by royal decree, it states that the DIRGEN of the revenue department could wipe that out too but I also don't think that will happen unless they grandfather all those already with an LTR.

 Hopefully, the Revenue Dept might make a clarifying statement on the worldwide income taxation plans but...who knows, daily it seems more and more complaints about the current government from other branches of the government so who knows if they will no fade away and a new govt might come to power with really different ideas.  Best of luck to all. 

The DirGen can determine if an LTR holder does not meet the qualifications for holding such visa, then for that year the remittance is not exemted from taxes.  This is a correction

[stat]

5 hours ago, Presnock said:

The DirGen can determine if an LTR holder does not meet the qualifications for holding such visa, then for that year the remittance is not exemted from taxes.  This is a correction

This is also the way I understand it. Reminds me of the power of discretion of the IO officer that could deny entry even if you had a perfectly valid visa.

 

If the wording is applied correctly one should always get the exemption as long as one has enough income 80K USD per year so SHOULD be fine I hope.

[Ben Zioner]

19 hours ago, khunjeff said:

The decree states that certain remitted income is exempt from taxation for some LTR holders

Nope, neither "remitted" nor "brought in Thailand" can be read in the english version of RD 743. 

 

Actually the more I read this document the mor I get the feeling is compatible with WWIT. The only thing is that HSPs could be taxed IMHO.

[khunjeff]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Nope, neither "remitted" nor "brought in Thailand" can be read in the english version of RD 743. 

 

Actually the more I read this document the mor I get the feeling is compatible with WWIT. The only thing is that HSPs could be taxed IMHO.

 

Section 5 of the decree refers to "income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from 
an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and 
brought into Thailand."

[Ben Zioner]

15 minutes ago, khunjeff said:

 

Section 5 of the decree refers to "income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from 
an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and 
brought into Thailand."

 

Thanks, you are right. I think it didn't register as my old brain was was focusing on the "previous year" bit.

 

 "assessable income under section 40 of the Revenue Code derived in the previous tax year from an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and brought into Thailand."

 

So to be safe I should bring in my 2024 income, in the early part of 2025, possibly before filing a tax return. Not a problem but good to know. 

 

And yes any income earned and left overseas could be become assessable for LTR holders once WWIT is implemented.

 

Also using foreign debit/credit card would become self defeating as an LTR holder would have to prove that these debits were to for goods and services in Thailand to avoid IT.

Edited September 26 by Ben Zioner

[JonnyF]

Does anyone know if an LTR visa negates the need for a certficate of residency when registering a vehicle in your name?

 

Just put a deposit down on a new motorbike and it would be nice if I could avoid the hassle of getting the certificate. 

[SHA 2 BKK]

46 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Does anyone know if an LTR visa negates the need for a certficate of residency when registering a vehicle in your name?

 

Just put a deposit down on a new motorbike and it would be nice if I could avoid the hassle of getting the certificate. 

I renewed my Thai Drivers Licence some months ago.  A Certificate of Residency was needed.   So I imagine the same for vehicle purchase.    Dead easy to get one if you live in Bangkok and head up to Chamchuri Square with a print out of your TM 30 report.   Took me about 1 hour (45 mins downstairs for a coffee while the document was produced).  

[Pib]

When I bought my new car late last year a certificate of residence was needed by DLT to register the vehicle.  I have a LTR visa.   Getting a certificate at Chamchuri Sq cost Bt500 and takes one hour.    Or an immigration officer closer to you may issue one also.

[Mike Teavee]

Just curious (I don't have one) but could somebody switch from a 20 year Thai Elite Visa to an LTR (assuming they meet all of the LTR requirements obviously)> 

 

[SHA 2 BKK]

33 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Just curious (I don't have one) but could somebody switch from a 20 year Thai Elite Visa to an LTR (assuming they meet all of the LTR requirements obviously)> 

 

I switched from a nearly expiring 5 year Elite to the LTR.  Best decision I made in a long time.

[K2938]

Any views on the likelihood of Thailand actually going ahead with the announced plan to not only tax remitted, but global income regardless of remittance?  Strangely all the big accounting firms do not mention anything about this.  Thanks.

Edited October 10 by K2938

[SHA 2 BKK]

5 hours ago, K2938 said:

Any views on the likelihood of Thailand actually going ahead with the announced plan to not only tax remitted, but global income regardless of remittance?  Strangely all the big accounting firms do not mention anything about this.  Thanks.

Apart from some bureaucrat mentioning it some months ago "All quiet on the Western Front".  

 

BTW anyone with an LTR Pensioner or Wealthy Individual - without Thai income - going to lodge a Tax Return next year on remitted income?  Earlier some LTR holders reported they couldn't get a TIN from the RD as they didn't have to pay tax.

 

On Global Income - I hope its just a thought bubble - I guess time as always will tell.

[Ben Zioner]

10 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Apart from some bureaucrat mentioning it some months ago "All quiet on the Western Front".  

 

BTW anyone with an LTR Pensioner or Wealthy Individual - without Thai income - going to lodge a Tax Return next year on remitted income?  Earlier some LTR holders reported they couldn't get a TIN from the RD as they didn't have to pay tax.

 

On Global Income - I hope its just a thought bubble - I guess time as always will tell.

Actually I don't know yet. But it may be worth to err on the side of caution, as they will apply full taxation for every year where you didn't "follow the rule(s)". And as this is Thailand they see benefit in not spelling our the rule(s).

[gravity101]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:28 AM, Ben Zioner said:

as they will apply full taxation for every year where you didn't "follow the rule(s)"

What does this mean? Is that the current penalty for not filing?

 

To the original query, I haven't filed for many years and I don't plan to restart because I now have a WP visa. I don't see the advantage of advertising and will continue to plead ignorance about having to file when I have no income if any agency comes knocking.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, gravity101 said:

What does this mean? Is that the current penalty for not filing?

 

To the original query, I haven't filed for many years and I don't plan to restart because I now have a WP visa. I don't see the advantage of advertising and will continue to plead ignorance about having to file when I have no income if any agency comes knocking.

"Section 6 A foreigner who is entitled to benefits under Section 3, Section 4, and Section 5 must meet qualifications and comply with rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department.

 

Section 7 In the case that a foreigner has applied tax reduction or exemption under this Royal Decree, and later does not comply with rules prescribed in Section 3, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6 in any tax year, benefits will be suspended in that tax year."

 

That's what we know, but IMHO it could mean that if you omit to file a tax return the LTR exemption doesn't apply for the relevant year.

Edited October 13 by Ben Zioner

[gravity101]

23 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

"Section 6 A foreigner who is entitled to benefits under Section 3, Section 4, and Section 5 must meet qualifications and comply with rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department.

 

Section 7 In the case that a foreigner has applied tax reduction or exemption under this Royal Decree, and later does not comply with rules prescribed in Section 3, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6 in any tax year, benefits will be suspended in that tax year."

 

That's what we know, but IMHO it could mean that if you omit to file a tax return the LTR exemption doesn't apply for the relevant year.

Thx. A little trap door there. These visas should come with a contract/rule book. Looks like its back to the lawyer come filing time.

[Ben Zioner]

52 minutes ago, gravity101 said:

Thx. A little trap door there. These visas should come with a contract/rule book. Looks like its back to the lawyer come filing time.

Doesn't need a book. A one A$ ToDo list would probably remove all doubts. But BOI, who otherwise are excellent people to deal with, consider that it is up to the RD to provide those instructions, which would than be posted on their website.

[stat]

On 10/11/2024 at 3:13 AM, SHA 2 BKK said:

Apart from some bureaucrat mentioning it some months ago "All quiet on the Western Front".  

 

...

Was the head director of Thai Revenue Department who said it...

My guess will not happen in 2025. One could stay in TH until mid June and when they really implement ww taxation leave as one is not a tax resident under a stay of 180 days.

[Cocon]

I have had my LTR visa for a year now. My friend is a longtime retired person who meets all the conditions and would also like to have an LTR wealthy pensioner visa, but he has no education papers. Is this a problem?

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Cocon said:

I have had my LTR visa for a year now. My friend is a longtime retired person who meets all the conditions and would also like to have an LTR wealthy pensioner visa, but he has no education papers. Is this a problem?

No education papers required for a LTR pensioner visa.   

 

Pensioner required docs here:

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/Required-docs-Wealthy-Pensioners-14-05-2024.pdf

Edited October 21 by Pib