Cant decide if I should get another covid booster. What about you?

[mistral53]

My wife has a habit when she cant decide for a color on something like a dress or a hand bag or shoes, to buy at least two colors - this way she wont have post purchase remorse........ in the same vein, I recommend you get two boosters!

Edited August 14, 2022 by mistral53

[rattlesnake]

13 hours ago, transam said:

Every operation I had in the UK required my signature because of risk...

An incurable disease I had (now in remission) was controlled by medication, my consultant told me there was a drug which would be of great help, but, it has a mortality risk. A drug for those where it was worth the risk.

So I skipped that one....????

Right, so you know first-hand what informed consent is.

 

All the people I know who were jabbed were never told there were any risks. What they were told was that if they did not do it, they would lose their job and not be allowed to enter public places. Enough said.

[spidermike007]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:52 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I've just had my 5th, Pfizer this time, only because the current Omicron strain 5 and 6 are worse than the previous one. Up to you

This is just not true. They are milder. I am in the US, and caught it within days of landing. Likely B5. Very mild. Flu symptoms for 2 days, then a runny nose and cough for 2 days. Then gone. I have had far worse flus. Deaths are down. Hospitalizations are way down. I will not be getting another booster. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by spidermike007

[richard_smith237]

16 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I know 3 people who developed myocarditis after the Covid jab, all young and healthy, they were given medical exemptions from taking any more as the correlation with the jab was established by doctors. One of them is an 18 year-old who is still struggling 10 months on (his parents are very distressed as they encouraged him to do it), another one is a thirty year-old who was hospitalized several times and felt horrible pains for weeks on end. All of them feel angry and betrayed for not having been warned of the risks.

 

These are empirical observations, i.e. reality, all the rest is just BS.

No... the ‘I know someone’ argument is anecdotal...

 

 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

[Quote Among 192 405 448 persons receiving a total of 354 100 845 mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines during the study period, there were 1991 reports of myocarditis to VAERS and 1626 of these reports met the case definition of myocarditis].

 

That calculates to 9 in 1 million people reported symptoms of myocarditis. 

 

The risk is far higher than that from influenza... the risk is far higher from covid. 

 

So.. IF the vaccine prevents or minimises the symptoms pf covid.... it also lowers the risk of someone developing myocarditis. 

 

IF comparing the risk of myocarditis in those who have been vaccinated with an mRNA to those who have not been vaccinated can you find enough people who are not vaccinated who will not or have not caught covid ??.... i.e. IF we take a 1,000,000 cross section of unvaccinated people from society - how many catch Covid-19 (any variant) and how many of them develop myocarditis ? less than 9 in a million ???  >> because thats the comparison....

 

 

[rattlesnake]

48 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

No... the ‘I know someone’ argument is anecdotal...

 

 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

[Quote Among 192 405 448 persons receiving a total of 354 100 845 mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines during the study period, there were 1991 reports of myocarditis to VAERS and 1626 of these reports met the case definition of myocarditis].

 

That calculates to 9 in 1 million people reported symptoms of myocarditis. 

 

The risk is far higher than that from influenza... the risk is far higher from covid. 

 

So.. IF the vaccine prevents or minimises the symptoms pf covid.... it also lowers the risk of someone developing myocarditis. 

 

IF comparing the risk of myocarditis in those who have been vaccinated with an mRNA to those who have not been vaccinated can you find enough people who are not vaccinated who will not or have not caught covid ??.... i.e. IF we take a 1,000,000 cross section of unvaccinated people from society - how many catch Covid-19 (any variant) and how many of them develop myocarditis ? less than 9 in a million ???  >> because thats the comparison....

 

 

I am surprised that you are using the VAERS system as a basis for your reasoning as you told rumak yesterday it was flawed and not a credible source…

 

Empirical observation supersedes everything. I did not say 'I know someone,' I said "I know 3 people'. That is 3 more than in my previous 40 years of existence.

 

At this point, denying there is a problem is just presposterous.

 

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This is just not true. They are milder. I am in the US, and caught it within days of landing. Likely B5. Very mild. Flu symptoms for 2 days, then a runny nose and cough for 2 days. Then gone. I have had far worse flus. Deaths are down. Hospitalizations are way down. I will not be getting another booster. 

i had the previous Omicron strain and that was very mild, reports were the subsequent strain around at the time was effecting lungs

[transam]

9 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Right, so you know first-hand what informed consent is.

 

All the people I know who were jabbed were never told there were any risks. What they were told was that if they did not do it, they would lose their job and not be allowed to enter public places. Enough said.

That is up to them, I suppose a pandemic requires immediate action, to protect the masses....????

[TropicalGuy]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, rattlesnake said:

So please enlighten an irrational and uneducated wretch such as myself:

Do the Covid vaccines work, are they safe and why? 

It’s not possible to enlighten people who don’t want to be enlightened. Uneducated fools can rarely be educated either, for the same reason. Closed minds. Determined to hold comfortable irrational positions .????????

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I am surprised that you are using the VAERS system as a basis for your reasoning as you told rumak yesterday it was flawed and not a credible source…

 

Empirical observation supersedes everything. I did not say 'I know someone,' I said "I know 3 people'. That is 3 more than in my previous 40 years of existence.

 

At this point, denying there is a problem is just presposterous.

When quoting the JAMA article I was well aware that someone would comment on their (ergo my) use of VAERS data... 

 

You failed to recognise that even ‘with’ the use of VAERS data, which could be submitted by anyone, that the incidence of myocarditis is incredibly low... 9 reports per 1 million people vaccinated with mRNA vaccines - and that was the point you have missed. 

 

I’ll try and make that point again - simple words.

IF you take 1 million vaccinated people - the risk of developing myocarditis (according to VAERS) is 9 in 1 million. IF you take 1 million unvaccinated people the risk of contracting Covid-19 and developing myocarditis is higher than 9 in 1 million. 

 

All of the people quoting the risk of developing myocarditis after taking an mMRNA vaccine are making that comparison with unvaccinated people who would never contract Covid-19 - that is an unrealistic comparison. 

 

 

Stepping sideways briefly: the risk of developing myocarditis when suffering acute influenza is 10%. 

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/214982

 

Thus - all of these people who are so frightened of the mRNA vaccines should be avoiding influenza like...  erm.. like the plague !!!

 

 

The issue with the hysteria surrounding the mRNA vaccines and the myocarditis risk is the utter absence of intelligent balance. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, rumak said:

NOTE:   i hope these examples (of which there are many many more)  will help the OP  and any others interested to make an INFORMED DECISION  about whether the risk/reward is worth it for them

I think this is what it is all about. 

 

No vaccine from Polio to Hepatitis, measles, tetanus etc are 100% risk free....  there is always a risk that an individual could suffer allergies to any of the Stabilisers, Adjuvants, Residual inactivating ingredients, Residual cell culture materials, Residual antibiotics etc etc... and then the antigen itself... 

 

And of course, we have this thread, a debate which has developed into the discussion of the risk of contracting myocarditis. 

 

 

This all has to be balanced with the risk of contracting covid and suffering allergies, VITT, myocarditis with the risk of suffering and developing worse illnesses and issues from the virus itself - thus vaccine effectiveness needs to be brought into question. 

 

Are the currently available vaccines sufficiently effective against the current strains of Covid-19 to minimise the risk of illness vs risk of side effects from the vaccines ?

 

All this discussion involving the negative impact of the vaccine cannot be held separately from the effectiveness of vaccines and risks of negative impacts of contracting Covid-19 itself.

 

 

 

Additionally, perspective is incredibly important. How many people will get drunk, meanwhile that same person is avoiding taking a vaccine because of a statistically proven minute risk of something negative happening ?

 

 

 

 

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

It’s not possible to enlighten people who don’t want to be enlightened. Uneducated fools can rarely be educated either, for the same reason. Closed minds. Determined to hold comfortable irrational positions .????????

Too bad for me then, I will stay in my irrational bubble of ignorance and lunacy. I will leave "the science" to the higher IQs.

 

Fortunately I am very lucky despite my limited intellect, as I am in full health and never caught Covid, which is not the case of many of my more discerning acquaintances who are struggling with an array of ailments despite their trust and understanding of "the science". Unfair indeed, I should be the one struggling with Covid and its complications but it's not happening.

Edited August 15, 2022 by rattlesnake

[CharlieH]

Reported posts removed. and responses to them.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

When quoting the JAMA article I was well aware that someone would comment on their (ergo my) use of VAERS data... 

 

You failed to recognise that even ‘with’ the use of VAERS data, which could be submitted by anyone, that the incidence of myocarditis is incredibly low... 9 reports per 1 million people vaccinated with mRNA vaccines - and that was the point you have missed. 

 

I’ll try and make that point again - simple words.

IF you take 1 million vaccinated people - the risk of developing myocarditis (according to VAERS) is 9 in 1 million. IF you take 1 million unvaccinated people the risk of contracting Covid-19 and developing myocarditis is higher than 9 in 1 million. 

 

All of the people quoting the risk of developing myocarditis after taking an mMRNA vaccine are making that comparison with unvaccinated people who would never contract Covid-19 - that is an unrealistic comparison. 

 

 

Stepping sideways briefly: the risk of developing myocarditis when suffering acute influenza is 10%. 

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/214982

 

Thus - all of these people who are so frightened of the mRNA vaccines should be avoiding influenza like...  erm.. like the plague !!!

 

 

The issue with the hysteria surrounding the mRNA vaccines and the myocarditis risk is the utter absence of intelligent balance. 

 

 

If you thing VAERS data is invalid then you should never use it as part of your argumentation out of dialectic coherence.

VAERS is a passive reporting system and the key sensitive issue with these systems is underreporting, as explained in this 2020 article about anaphylaxis and Guillain-Barré syndrome. You can see in the Results section that the actual cases captured by VAERS is consistently low:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X20312548?via%3Dihub

Usually an underreporting factor (URF) is established but this was never done with the Covid jabs.

Now in spite of your comparisons (which I fully understand, no need to repeat), as I said previously the compelling data which is causing such widespread resistance to these shots is the empirical data, i.e. real-world observations which are occurring everywhere and increasingly difficult to ignore despite the absence of media coverage.

Thank you.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Study finds U.S. COVID-19 vaccinations averted 2.2 million deaths

 

April 8 (UPI) -- A new study published Friday found COVID-19 vaccinations have prevented 2.2 million deaths in the United States.

 

The Commonwealth Fund study said 17 million hospitalizations were averted by the vaccines between December 12, 2020, and March 31, 2022.

 

More than $899 billion was saved in healthcare costs due to the vaccines, according to the Commonwealth Fund study.

 

(more)

 

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2022/04/08/COVID19-commonwelath-fund-study-vaccines-prevented-millions-of-deaths/1421649425164/

 

 

 

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2022/impact-us-covid-19-vaccination-efforts-march-update

 

[TropicalGuy]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Too bad for me then, I will stay in my irrational bubble of ignorance and lunacy. I will leave "the science" to the higher IQs.

 

Fortunately I am very lucky despite my limited intellect, as I am in full health and never caught Covid, which is not the case of many of my more discerning acquaintances who are struggling with an array of ailments despite their trust and understanding of "the science". Unfair indeed, I should be the one struggling with Covid and its complications but it's not happening.

Visible Anecdotal “ evidence” is powerful indeed ….. to the determinedly uneducated …..my group my family my friends etc. …. consider that “ your” tiny group of 20 or so is completely irrelevant statistically where groups of tens or hundreds of millions are being scientifically evaluated and reported. ????

[TropicalGuy]

19 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I am surprised that you are using the VAERS system as a basis for your reasoning as you told rumak yesterday it was flawed and not a credible source…

 

Empirical observation supersedes everything. I did not say 'I know someone,' I said "I know 3 people'. That is 3 more than in my previous 40 years of existence.

 

At this point, denying there is a problem is just presposterous.

 

Scientific method applies. Your unscientific anecdotal “ observations” are scientifically worthless. any “ problems” are described with the scientific conclusions. they will not fit your preconceived ideas though …..in nature or fractional impact. 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

If you thing VAERS data is invalid then you should never use it as part of your argumentation out of dialectic coherence.

VAERS is a passive reporting system and the key sensitive issue with these systems is underreporting, as explained in this 2020 article about anaphylaxis and Guillain-Barré syndrome. You can see in the Results section that the actual cases captured by VAERS is consistently low:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X20312548?via%3Dihub

Usually an underreporting factor (URF) is established but this was never done with the Covid jabs.

Now in spite of your comparisons (which I fully understand, no need to repeat), as I said previously the compelling data which is causing such widespread resistance to these shots is the empirical data, i.e. real-world observations which are occurring everywhere and increasingly difficult to ignore despite the absence of media coverage.

Thank you.

I never said VAERS was invalid, I highlighted that the data is being used incorrectly by specific forum members.

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Usually an underreporting factor (URF) is established but this was never done with the Covid jabs.

Before Covid-19 VAERS was widely unknown by the public who now may be contributing far more the system. 

 

Of course VAERS reporting for Guillain-Barré syndrome is going to be low, there is no known or suspected relationship between Guillain-Barré syndrome and vaccines. 

 

IF someone comes into an emergency room with GB symptoms, are the doctors going to file a VAERS report ?

 

I suppose they may if the patient announced that they have recently receive the vaccine - however the incidence of GB syndrome is so very low I don’t think a valid comparison can be made with VAERS reporting for the Covid vaccines. 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Now in spite of your comparisons (which I fully understand, no need to repeat), as I said previously the compelling data which is causing such widespread resistance to these shots is the empirical data, i.e. real-world observations which are occurring everywhere and increasingly difficult to ignore despite the absence of media coverage.

I don’t think they should be ignored...  But the information should be presenting in balance with the risks of not taking the vaccine. 

 

A lot of the information is being presented from the perspective of Vaccine vs no covid... and that is an imbalanced perspective, as those who suffer covid may be at greater risk of complicates as a result of their illness than the vaccines.

[Boomer6969]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:54 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Were their symptoms less severe than they otherwise would have been had then not be vaccinated ?

Exactly, my Covid was a total non event, one ATK to confirm, Tylenol for 3 and a half days, and a last ATK after a week. No bed, near normal activity, no Doctor, but I took a Moderna booster,  a couple of weeks later. Couldn't postpone it.

[spidermike007]

17 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

i had the previous Omicron strain and that was very mild, reports were the subsequent strain around at the time was effecting lungs

I don't think that was ever confirmed. There is alot of "information" floating around. Haven't heard about alot of serious cases from the subsequent variants. Alot of panic and hype, though. 

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

Visible Anecdotal “ evidence” is powerful indeed ….. to the determinedly uneducated …..my group my family my friends etc. …. consider that “ your” tiny group of 20 or so is completely irrelevant statistically where groups of tens or hundreds of millions are being scientifically evaluated and reported. ????

Let's pick up this conversation in a few weeks.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Before Covid-19 VAERS was widely unknown by the public who now may be contributing far more the system. 

 

Of course VAERS reporting for Guillain-Barré syndrome is going to be low, there is no known or suspected relationship between Guillain-Barré syndrome and vaccines. 

 

IF someone comes into an emergency room with GB symptoms, are the doctors going to file a VAERS report ?

 

I suppose they may if the patient announced that they have recently receive the vaccine - however the incidence of GB syndrome is so very low I don’t think a valid comparison can be made with VAERS reporting for the Covid vaccines. 

 

As a passive system, VAERS is intrinsically subject to underreporting and that is what is shown in the study, GB is just an example, the issue is percentage of actual cases vs. reports. An honest person can only validate and take this factor into account.

[Boomer6969]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:24 PM, notrub said:

I just had my 5th vaccine.  I have never had any bad side effects from the shots.  I have seen on youtube channels of people I trust that the efficacy of these vaccines wear off more quickly with all the new variants floating around now.  A friend was told about a pfizer product taken orally (as a cure?).  Don't know anything about it but here is a picture of the box.  It is apparently available in Thailand.

Is it, available in Thailand? Would be good news. Actually this would be the only reason I'd go to see a doctor if I got got Covid again.  But the cost is about 10000 THB a treatment, so OPD insurance comes in handy.

[rumak]

10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I never said VAERS was invalid, I highlighted that the data is being used incorrectly by specific forum members.

 

 

 

incorrect information in this post

[Scott]

An off-topic post reported and removed.

 

[watthong]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:52 PM, richard_smith237 said:

How did I not contract covid ?

- Lucky ?

- Antibodies from a previous case (April) protected me from contracting covid-19 ? 

- Antibodies vaccination and latest booster in Dec protected me from contracting covid-19? 

- Combination of all the above ?

Thank you, you have the patience of a saint. I've long stopped "reasoning" with rabid anti-vaxxers because often as a result I became a rabid vaxxer. As variants keep popping up and become another worrisome phenomenon in our lives, all the more people should get vaccinated and keep boosting to protect themselves. Not only against the virus itself, but also the non-vaccinated all around us who are determined to either bury their head in the sands or maintain at all cost their place in covid's on-going petri dish.

 

The rule of thumb is keep boosting every 6 months, different vaccine each time if possible, wearing masks and frequent washing of hands. In the meantime let's count our blessings that the malls have re-opened, public eateries are back in business and you can take your mask off while dining there.

[transam]

6 minutes ago, watthong said:

Thank you, you have the patience of a saint. I've long stopped "reasoning" with rabid anti-vaxxers because often as a result I became a rabid vaxxer. As variants keep popping up and become another worrisome phenomenon in our lives, all the more people should get vaccinated and keep boosting to protect themselves. Not only against the virus itself, but also the non-vaccinated all around us who are determined to either bury their head in the sands or maintain at all cost their place in covid's on-going petri dish.

 

The rule of thumb is keep boosting every 6 months, different vaccine each time if possible, wearing masks and frequent washing of hands. In the meantime let's count our blessings that the malls have re-opened, public eateries are back in business and you can take your mask off while dining there.

Why a different vax each time....?

[degrub]

Each of the vaccines targets a slightly different portion of the spike protein. There was some evidence presented by studies for the US FDA that showed an increased effectiveness in preventing serious illness. Not huge, but an increase. I believe the specific comparison was between Pfizer and Moderna vaccines at the time. 

[degrub]

Secondly, your immune system retains some response even if it has been longer than 6 months since you had that specific vaccine.