1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Amusing ????. I hate to disappoint you but I am well aware of what a Pell grant is. I received a similar grant myself when I attended Uni in London in the 90's. However, unlike these students I paid back my own student debt when I went on to a career earning very good money, and I was happy to do so since I had agreed in good faith to pay off the loan and the degree had served me extremely well in terms of present/future earnings.

 

I certainly wouldn't have supported the minimum wage waiter who was serving me my steak at the restaurant paying off my debt as I lorded it up on a Friday evening with workmates, simply because the left wing government was trying to buy my vote. But then, I have actual principles, unlike the virtue signallers who drop them as soon as it becomes expedient for them to do so ????.

It would be interesting to compare your capped and heavily subsidized UK university tuition fees with those US students face, but that would be a different thread.

 

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Why does that matter?

 

People who had hundreds of thousands of dollars, some millions of dollars of PPP loans forgiven are ranting against help being given to ordinary Americans who hold Federal student debts.

 

It’s the two faced hypocrisy of it all.

They are business loans. Strange no Democrat names highlighted - were there none?

52 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

Bottom line, this student loan "cancellation" is a drop in the bucket for U.S. taxpayers

 

I think the phrase "The straw that breaks the camel's back" can easily be applied to "drops in a bucket," also.

 

The question is not whether a program seen in isolation is affordable. 

 

The question is whether the cumulative effect of one more program poured on top of all the others........... causes the bucket to burst!

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

They are business loans. Strange no Democrat names highlighted - were there none?

A loan is a loan, a loan forgiveness is a loan forgiveness.

 

I’m absolutely sure there were Democrats who received forgiveness of PPP loans, but they are not engaging in the hypocrisy of bleating about others getting their loans forgiven after having accepted their own loans forgiven.

 

It’s the shameless hypocrisy of it all.

4 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

 

I think the phrase "The straw that breaks the camel's back" can easily be applied to "drops in a bucket," also.

 

The question is not whether a program seen in isolation is affordable. 

 

The question is whether the cumulative effect of one more program poured on top of all the others........... causes the bucket to burst!

That could be said of every single Government spending program.

This one helps happens to help a very large number of ordinary working Americans.

 

That’s a very welcome step in the right direction.

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A loan is a loan, a loan forgiveness is a loan forgiveness.

 

I’m absolutely sure there were Democrats who received forgiveness of PPP loans, but they are not engaging in the hypocrisy of bleating about others getting their loans forgiven after having accepted their own loans forgiven.

 

It’s the shameless hypocrisy of it all.

Well, you said it. ????

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

They are business loans. Strange no Democrat names highlighted - were there none?

Is it the Democrats who are ranting against loan forgiveness?

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That could be said of every single Government spending program.

This one helps happens to help a very large number of ordinary working Americans.

 

That’s a very welcome step in the right direction.

The right direction? Like hyper-inflation?

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Is it the Democrats who are ranting against loan forgiveness?

Of course not. 555.

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Of course not. 555.

I guess you find their lack of hypocrisy on this score amusing. You have a very recherché sense of humor.

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It would be interesting to compare your capped and heavily subsidized UK university tuition fees with those US students face, but that would be a different thread.

 

 

Yes my total amount owed at graduation was much lower than that which today's student's face, but I was fortunate enough to go to University during the latter stages of a long Conservative reign and they were looking after students relatively well (although working as a labourer on construction sites during the holidays was still necessary to keep my head above water).

 

I certainly didn't expect the loans that I took out to be paid off by poor, low paid workers while I was reaping the benefits of a well paid job post graduation. I paid them off myself, and rightly so. This is an ill conceived policy by a failing government looking to secure votes. Shameful stuff.

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Whataboutery....lol

 

Would you care to explain how  Marjorie Taylor Greene had $183,504 in PPP loans forgiven, Vern Buchanan had over $2.3 million in PPP loans forgiven,

Markwayne Mullin had over $1.4 million in PPP loans forgiven, Kevin Hern had over $1 million in PPP loans forgiven, Mike Kelly had $987,237 in PPP loans forgiven and Matt Gaetz had $482,321 in PPP loans forgiven.

 

Yet they hypocritically are some of the biggest and outspoken critics of this proposal by Biden?

Remember, "forgiveness" of these loans was part of the loan package from the very beginning. For the "loan" to be "forgiven," the business had to comply with certain requirements, like maintaining employment to one degree or other.

 

But that's not the point. The point is that this was all agreed to by both parties, borrower AND lender, before the "loan" was ever given.

 

So all those businesses that had their loans "forgiven"......... even those you have seemingly tried to shame.......... merely followed the rules that both had agreed to, from the beginning.

 

Student debt forgiveness, on the other hand, was NEVER agreed to; not by the borrower, not by the lender. That was NEVER part of the deal!

 

So there is nothing "hypocritical" when those who benefited only by following the rules.......... complain because tens of millions of others suddenly get told they don't have to! 

 

That's not hypocrisy; that fully justified righteousness indignation!

 

????

 

 

 

If they didn't waste their time and the country's resources taking <deleted> liberal degrees they would earn enough to pay off their debt. Why should hard working Americans pay for someone's degree in media studies.

42 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The right direction? Like hyper-inflation?

Like Hyperbole ?!

34 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yes my total amount owed at graduation was much lower than that which today's student's face, but I was fortunate enough to go to University during the latter stages of a long Conservative reign and they were looking after students relatively well (although working as a labourer on construction sites during the holidays was still necessary to keep my head above water).

 

I certainly didn't expect the loans that I took out to be paid off by poor, low paid workers while I was reaping the benefits of a well paid job post graduation. I paid them off myself, and rightly so. This is an ill conceived policy by a failing government looking to secure votes. Shameful stuff.

You obviously have no idea about college fees in the US.

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You obviously have no idea about college fees in the US.

You obviously presume way too much.

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

You obviously presume way too much.

Then I guess you know that the...

Price Of College Increasing Almost 8 Times Faster Than Wages

Many Baby Boomers and Gen Xers remember working their way through college and graduating with little to no debt. Sadly, that feat is virtually impossible for the current crop of students and recent graduates.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/?sh=1746820e66c1

 

And no doubt you are aware that...

State Higher Education Funding Cuts Have Pushed Costs to Students, Worsened Inequality

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-higher-education-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students

 

and I'm sure you know better than these folks:

Most Americans don’t realize state funding for higher ed fell by billions

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions

26 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That could be said of every single Government spending program.

This one helps happens to help a very large number of ordinary working Americans.

 

That’s a very welcome step in the right direction.

Yep, that's the Sales Pitch.

 

And if we ignore Cause and Effect and Unintended Consequences, well, man, that all sounds great!

 

Except there's a lender out there who expected to get that money back; who planned on getting that money back, who's budgeted based on getting that money back; who employs people based on getting that money back (with interest!)

 

And now they're screwed.

 

And that's just one example of what are, in fact, many negative effects; the most important perhaps being, "If you reward bad behavior, you'll get more of it!"

 

If you ask successful people, almost all of them can list the failures they had before they became successful-----the failures that taught them how to be successful!

 

And now you want to teach these supposedly educated people that failure can be overlooked, rewarded? 

 

That practically robs failure of its incredible power to motivate......... and almost turns failure into a goal itself!

 

"If you reward bad behavior, you'll get more of it!"

I haven't read all the posts but I just make one point. Bill Maher and his guests last week pointed out last week the massive fraud involved in covid relief and that many rich corporations and criminals benefit hugely who shouldn't have. We are talking billions. Similar happened in Australia but to a lesser degree as we don't have antiquated computer systems that can't at least to some degree data match and check and cross reference applications. My point is if former students get a benefit rather than criminals and wealthy corporations for once that is not such a bad thing. 

In terms of standing on it's own merit I do think it might have been targetted a bit better to those on a lower income and I can understand those who have paid there debts feeling a bit peeved. 

2 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Yep, that's the Sales Pitch.

 

And if we ignore Cause and Effect and Unintended Consequences, well, man, that all sounds great!

 

Except there's a lender out there who expected to get that money back; who planned on getting that money back, who's budgeted based on getting that money back; who employs people based on getting that money back (with interest!)

 

And now they're screwed.

 

And that's just one example of what are, in fact, many negative effects; the most important perhaps being, "If you reward bad behavior, you'll get more of it!"

 

If you ask successful people, almost all of them can list the failures they had before they became successful-----the failures that taught them how to be successful!

 

And now you want to teach these supposedly educated people that failure can be overlooked, rewarded? 

 

That practically robs failure of its incredible power to motivate......... and almost turns failure into a goal itself!

 

"If you reward bad behavior, you'll get more of it!"

How is this at all relevant to the Federal Government forgiving student loans?

 

The lender is the Federal Government, or did you miss that bit?

One big factor that could stand in the way of this is the Supreme Court. Given their blatant partisanship it's not at all unlikely that they will forbid Biden's order from taking effect. Of course, they may have learned from the elector consequences of their abortion ruling that they've already done more than enough to help the Democrats'  prospects in the midterm.

54 minutes ago, Henryford said:

If they didn't waste their time and the country's resources taking <deleted> liberal degrees they would earn enough to pay off their debt. Why should hard working Americans pay for someone's degree in media studies.

Maybe ask Trump why he put in a student loan Forgiveness program in 2020

 

Suspended payments count toward the Public Service Loan Forgiveness programs. If you are enrolled in the PSLF program, you will receive credit for a payment each month, even if you chose not to make one.

That last bullet point is HUGE for those participating in the PSLF program. They are being credited with at least 18 months of payments (out of the 120 needed in the program) whether they made payments or not.

https://www.debt.org/students/loan-forgiveness/

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I guess you find their lack of hypocrisy on this score amusing. You have a very recherché sense of humor.

The Democrats are rather quiet about their own - quelle surprise.

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Then I guess you know that the...

Price Of College Increasing Almost 8 Times Faster Than Wages

Many Baby Boomers and Gen Xers remember working their way through college and graduating with little to no debt. Sadly, that feat is virtually impossible for the current crop of students and recent graduates.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2018/07/24/price-of-college-increasing-almost-8-times-faster-than-wages/?sh=1746820e66c1

 

And no doubt you are aware that...

State Higher Education Funding Cuts Have Pushed Costs to Students, Worsened Inequality

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-higher-education-funding-cuts-have-pushed-costs-to-students

 

and I'm sure you know better than these folks:

Most Americans don’t realize state funding for higher ed fell by billions

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions

Yes it's public knowledge. No need to post links stating the obvious.

 

However, students know the cost before they attend. It isn't sprung on them on the last day like some kind of nasty surprise. So if they know the cost and still choose to invest that amount in their future, they should pay what they agreed. There is no need for governments to start arbitrarily writing off agreed loans at taxpayers expense in order to gain favour with a particular demographic prior to elections.

 

Free gifts for voters prior to elections is the type of thing that third world countries do. A bit like state sponsored raids of homes of political rivals.

Let me guess, the interest on the remaining debt is expected to rise and will end up costing the student 10+K more. A cigar from my own box to gain popularity, that is non existing, for the next election round.

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

How is this at all relevant to the Federal Government forgiving student loans?

 

The lender is the Federal Government, or did you miss that bit?

Which doesn't change the facts, one bit.

 

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/where-do-federal-student-loans-come-from

 

If you read the article at the link, you'll see that all the same elements I mentioned still apply. The government is just acting like a bank, with budgeting, planning, employing, and even collecting interest that all depend debts getting repaid.

 

The only difference is the money for the next year comes from the Treasury. But the Treasury/Congress is going to factor in how much was successfully repaid......... when considering how much the budget will be for the next year. 

 

If money hasn't  been repaid to the Treasury, the Treasury is left with two choices......... tax more or borrow more, to cover the shortfall.

 

Yeah, it may be the government. But even though the processes are a little different, the end result is the same. They have all the same considerations as any other lender!

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Is it the Democrats who are ranting against loan forgiveness?

Many are.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11145541/More-Dems-turn-AGAINST-Bidens-student-loan-relief-plan-projected-cost-Americans-500B.html

18 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Which doesn't change the facts, one bit.

 

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/where-do-federal-student-loans-come-from

 

If you read the article at the link, you'll see that all the same elements I mentioned still apply. The government is just acting like a bank, with budgeting, planning, employing, and even collecting interest that all depend debts getting repaid.

 

The only difference is the money for the next year comes from the Treasury. But the Treasury/Congress is going to factor in how much was successfully repaid......... when considering how much the budget will be for the next year. 

 

If money hasn't  been repaid to the Treasury, the Treasury is left with two choices......... tax more or borrow more, to cover the shortfall.

 

Yeah, it may be the government. But even though the processes are a little different, the end result is the same. They have all the same considerations as any other lender!

A drop in the ocean.

 

https://datalab.usaspending.gov/americas-finance-guide/spending/

 

 

On 8/25/2022 at 8:12 AM, Hanaguma said:

Then why not lower the income threshold to an actual working class level? Say $50,000 per family. 

What decade are you living in? 

 

There is only ONE  state in the union where $50,000 is a living wage for a family of four.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/how-much-money-a-family-of-4-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html

48 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Which doesn't change the facts, one bit.

 

https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/where-do-federal-student-loans-come-from

 

If you read the article at the link, you'll see that all the same elements I mentioned still apply. The government is just acting like a bank, with budgeting, planning, employing, and even collecting interest that all depend debts getting repaid.

 

The only difference is the money for the next year comes from the Treasury. But the Treasury/Congress is going to factor in how much was successfully repaid......... when considering how much the budget will be for the next year. 

 

If money hasn't  been repaid to the Treasury, the Treasury is left with two choices......... tax more or borrow more, to cover the shortfall.

 

Yeah, it may be the government. But even though the processes are a little different, the end result is the same. They have all the same considerations as any other lender!

It is a bit complex, but as far as I understand, the government has already funded the loans.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-sachs-has-run-the-numbers-on-student-loan-relief-heres-their-assessment-11661417918?siteid=yhoof2