One question concerning a Last Will and Testament

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, andreww said:

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

25-50 kthb for only a Thai will seems exagerrated to me. But of course I do not know what they told you what is included.

 

A very well written document in both English and Thai should you set back for something between 5 - 10kthb, but who am I to make the pricing for someone elses services. Maybe your case is very complicated ?

 

This is for the document alone. I would not write it based only on your own understanding or use a template. Any other questions would for sure be answered by a good lawyer for a small fee or even for free. Do not forget the cost for probate, though which applies when you are already deceased.

[nigelforbes]

2 hours ago, andreww said:

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

The cost to draft a will in Thailand for a foreigner is fairly standard around the country, about 6,000 baht, using a Thai lawyer.

 

A power of attorney dies when you die, it would not be valid after your death.

 

Yes, you can include anyone in your will, regardless of their nationality.

 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, moogradod said:

Could you please elaborate more on what you mean exactly by "Healthcare POA" ?

 

A Living Will is a document that describes how you would like that doctors, hospitals etc. should treat you if you are not able to communicate (because of unconsciousness, because you are not sane at the time etc.).

 

It describes for example if machines that keep you alive under certain circumstances should be switched off etc. when you cannot tell.

I am not entirely sure, but I think that it is a document that appoints someone to make healthcare decisions for you if you are not able... 

 

The problem with a doctor or even document making these decisions is that there are endless possibilities that you cannot anticipate. My elderly mother did not want feeding tubes etc... my brother was in charge - the doctor explained that w/a feeding tube for a week or two, she will probably survive and come back to normal... w/o - she will die... he made the decision to override and she did get to live on for several years... 

 

maybe that is a living will - again, I am not sure but I did sign something that left a person in charge of those decisions for me.. 

[Bosse137]

What about a "holistic" testament ? A handwritten and signed testament by the person,who wants to make a teatament.I am told,that it is valid,but have my doubts,since most people seems to think,that it must be more complicated and done by a lawfirm....In my case,I just wrote,that ALL of my possesions shall go to a certain person.I don´t have a lot of different assets,just my bankaccounts.

[nigelforbes]

10 minutes ago, Bosse137 said:

What about a "holistic" testament ? A handwritten and signed testament by the person,who wants to make a teatament.I am told,that it is valid,but have my doubts,since most people seems to think,that it must be more complicated and done by a lawfirm....In my case,I just wrote,that ALL of my possesions shall go to a certain person.I don´t have a lot of different assets,just my bankaccounts.

It still has to be witnessed, typically handwritten wills are done at the Amphur and kept there for safe custody.

[nigelforbes]

9 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

I am not entirely sure, but I think that it is a document that appoints someone to make healthcare decisions for you if you are not able... 

 

The problem with a doctor or even document making these decisions is that there are endless possibilities that you cannot anticipate. My elderly mother did not want feeding tubes etc... my brother was in charge - the doctor explained that w/a feeding tube for a week or two, she will probably survive and come back to normal... w/o - she will die... he made the decision to override and she did get to live on for several years... 

 

maybe that is a living will - again, I am not sure but I did sign something that left a person in charge of those decisions for me.. 

A living will sets out the medical care and treatment you are prepared to accept and what must be refused, under what circumstances, they are now binding on doctors and hospitals in Thailand who otherwise would go to great lengths to keep you alive. You can designate in a Living Will, a person to make decisions for you regarding treatment, if you are incapacitated.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

It still has to be witnessed, typically handwritten wills are done at the Amphur and kept there for safe custody.

It does not have to be witnessed ('tho I'd recommend you do have it witnessed). Amphur involvement  unnecessary. Here's an example of a simple holistic Will:

https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/sample-text-holographic-will.html

[nigelforbes]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

It does not have to be witnessed ('tho I'd recommend you do have it witnessed). Amphur involvement  unnecessary. Here's an example of a simple holistic Will:

https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/sample-text-holographic-will.html

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

I understand the Amphur has a will custody arrangement whereby they issue the person with a ticket that is in effect the receipt, maybe useful to give to the beneficiary.

[MyFriend You]

18 hours ago, andreww said:

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by TunnelRat69

[MyFriend You]

18 hours ago, andreww said:

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

Deleted duplicate answer

Edited October 15, 2022 by TunnelRat69

[MyFriend You]

17 hours ago, andreww said:

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

I used this office, they had people that spoke 6 or 7 languages, and their prixces are reasonable, then again, what price is love worth??   http://thailawoffice.com      Scandanavian Law Office in Jom Tien, Pattaya.  They have affiliates in a few other major cities in the Kingdom.   For my piece of mind it was worth the 12,000 baht I paid for my will, it is ironclad.  

 

SCB told me directly, Banks fall under different 'rules' - a will doesn't automatically grant someone ownership of your account, you need to make them a co-owner, as @Jim Grant sugests, its better to make the party a C0-Signitaory on the account.   We will do that on our next trip back to Thailand.

 

I only did it when a Aussie owned bar I used to  frequent owner died, he didn't have a will, his mia noi (???) came out of the woodwork with a video of him saying (rather drunkingly) that he would leave her something when he died..........she got control of the bar from  a judge..........bar went belly up because no one would frequent it after that, but you get my drift.

Peace 

[1FinickyOne]

16 hours ago, moogradod said:

but who am I to make the pricing for someone elses services.

You are Moogradod - try not to forget it. 

[1FinickyOne]

7 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

what price is love worth??

Usually depends on how long?? 

[scorecard]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:58 PM, JimGant said:

That's not correct. The land office will certainly accept a Will properly probated, without having an Amphur involved. But, yes, an Amphur requires a Will prepared at the Amphur to be in Thai. Furthermore, they also require that you, the testator, be able to speak and read Thai.

 

So, not many farangs writing their Wills on Amphur templates. But, you can go the secret Will route, bringing your English written (or whatever) Will to the Amphur, folded, witnessed, and affixed with an Amphur stamp. Then, sealed in an envelope -- and put away to be retrieved by your executor upon your death. Your executor can then have it translated, if need be. Or, I guess, you the testator could have a certified Thai translation of your Will be included in the sealed envelope.

 

But bothering to include an Amphur seems a waste, because "registering" a Will is not a requirement (accept in a few peculiar situations, not affecting most of us).

Also beware of amphur staff getting involved / too involved in writing the will. Some amphurs have staff who are tasked to help write wills but this can become a 'ptoblem':

- Amphur staff insisring on certain clauses. Example: my Thai nephew got married and a bit later went with his Thai wife to the Amphur to write his will (This had been suggested by older siblings of his Thai wife).

- Amphur 'officer' inisted that by Thai law nephew's will must state that nephews' mother in law receive 100,000Baht upon his death.

 

Nephew queried this and was instantly confronted with comments about disrespect for his MIL.

 

Nephew made excuse to leave and come back later.

Nephew contacted old school friend now a practicing Thai lawyer and asked if there was any such law re money for MIL? Answer NO, no such law, nothing like it at all.

Nephew went back to amphur office with wife and lawyer.

Lawyer asked same amhur 'officer':

 

- To show him a document/any documen/a Thai act which states 'must leave monty to MIL'. Amphur lady couldn't produce any such document.

- Lawyer asked her 'have you actually seen this in writing in an official document, or is there any such document in this office?' Answer NO.

- Do you have a law degree and do you have any raining about writing wills? Answer NO and NO.

 

Lawyer then asked her why she had insisted that there must, by Thai law, be a clause in hephew's will bequeathing 100,000Baht to nephew's MIL.

 

Her response: 'But I think it's a good idea'. Then amphur officer fled and wouldn't come back to the 'meeting'. Her supervisor came and got very angry with my nephew and his wife and the lawyer , saying, 'why do you ask questions and why do you come here making trouble?'

 

Nephew's wife then politely asked the lawyer 'Can you please write my husbands will and a will for me too please? Lawyers replied 'YES'.

 

No further discussion with Amphur staff, nephew,wife, lawyer stood up and walked out. 

[topt]

On 10/14/2022 at 7:34 PM, moogradod said:

As far as I know, in Thailand a beneficiary CAN be an executor, but it is not recommended for if there is some arguing (you see it depends very much on the individual case) then his stand towards the authorities would be weak. But this is what I believe, not what I know for certain.

Yes can be beneficiary and executor as in UK.

I have never heard anyone say it is not recommended. Unless you don't think the beneficiary is capable of executing the will then why involve another person and potentially extra cost.

 

As long as the will is written and witnessed correctly then arguments should not be an issue. If you think there may be an issue with "family members" then write specific clause in will and/or talk to them in good time so there are no expectations.

[moogradod]

8 minutes ago, topt said:

Yes can be beneficiary and executor as in UK.

I have never heard anyone say it is not recommended. Unless you don't think the beneficiary is capable of executing the will then why involve another person and potentially extra cost.

 

As long as the will is written and witnessed correctly then arguments should not be an issue. If you think there may be an issue with "family members" then write specific clause in will and/or talk to them in good time so there are no expectations.

A will can always be challenged in the court. I have heard that this has happend successfully in Thailand as well. Your idea of coming to a mutual understanding of any family member in any situation is of course a good one. But there are some <deleted> people in this world and changing minds is as well not uncommon.

[Robin]

On 9/24/2022 at 4:58 PM, Keith5588 said:

Hi,
I am from the UK. Can a Last Will & Testament for all my assets that I have in Thailand be written in English only with no Thai language copy?
This has been on my mind for a while as I have read a few times that it needs a copy in Thai language as well as English but to me that does not make any sense. I cannot read Thai, how can I possibly sign something that I do not understand?
After I die then my Will can be translated if required.
Any help much appreciated.

A little explanation.
My Thai girlfriend and myself have been living together in Thailand for the past 5 years.
During the Covid lockdown nearly 2 years ago I researched on the internet then wrote 2 Wills myself, one for all my Thai assets and another separate Will for all my UK assets.
I have no children and I have never been married, no dependents, my parents have die, so basically no family. My Thai girlfriends children are grow up. My assets in both countries are very simply described.
I am

 

[Robin]

"I am confident that I wrote very clear Wills in English language, in both stating my girlfriend as executor and also leaving everything to her. I signed both Wills in the presence of witnesses who then signed."

 

You should check; I think that in UK an executor of a will cannot be a beneficiary in hat will.

 

[moogradod]

For assets in Thailand for a probate with a Thai court, the will must be in Thai language - this is at least what I can say that because of statements from a very experienced lawyer on the subject.

 

To sign something that you do not understand is very common here. Ever opened a bank account ? They not even give you copies from what you have signed, even if requested. You have to take pictures. This is allowed ????

[Mickeymaus]

6 minutes ago, moogradod said:

For assets in Thailand for a probate with a Thai court, the will must be in Thai language - this is at least what I can say that because of statements from a very experienced lawyer on the subject.

 

To sign something that you do not understand is very common here. Ever opened a bank account ? They not even give you copies from what you have signed, even if requested. You have to take pictures. This is allowed ????

They need a certified translation. This is nothing special. Can be done when you are dead. There will be other documents that will have to be translated. 

[topt]

1 hour ago, Robin said:

You should check; I think that in UK an executor of a will cannot be a beneficiary in hat will.

Sorry but that is incorrect.

A witness cannot be a beneficiary either in the UK or Thailand.

[topt]

44 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

Can be done when you are dead.

It can but why not make it easier and less costly to the beneficiary before you go.......

[Mickeymaus]

1 minute ago, topt said:

It can but why not make it easier and less costly to the beneficiary before you go.......

Less costly depends how often you change your last will... 

[topt]

12 minutes ago, Mickeymaus said:

Less costly depends how often you change your last will... 

Unless you are talking of changing more than just the beneficiary/s, changing the name shouldn't cost you anything, if you set it up well in the first instance.

But yes up to the individual how they want to do it.

Edited October 16, 2022 by topt
additional words

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, moogradod said:

A will can always be challenged in the court. I have heard that this has happend successfully in Thailand as well. Your idea of coming to a mutual understanding of any family member in any situation is of course a good one. But there are some <deleted> people in this world and changing minds is as well not uncommon.

Yes it has happened in Thaiand and become public. In the couple of cases I recall there were very extreme circumstances which pushed the judge to amend the will. And in at least one of the cases all of the family members strongly backed that there was no valid reason why the sibling who was ignored by the mother should not receive the same benefit as all the other 3 or 4 siblings. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by scorecard

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, moogradod said:

For assets in Thailand for a probate with a Thai court, the will must be in Thai language - this is at least what I can say that because of statements from a very experienced lawyer on the subject.

 

To sign something that you do not understand is very common here. Ever opened a bank account ? They not even give you copies from what you have signed, even if requested. You have to take pictures. This is allowed ????

From above:  "  For assets in Thailand for a probate with a Thai court, the will must be in Thai language - this is at least what I can say that because of statements from a very experienced lawyer on the subject.  "

 

I'm surprised that people don't realize/support that the will should be in the native language of the country (with translations as needed).

[JimGant]

10 minutes ago, scorecard said:

And in at least one of the cases all of the family members strongly backed that there was no valid reason why the sibling who was ignored by the mother should not receive the same benefit as all the other 3 or 4 siblings. 

Ah, just like classic cases in the US by the disinherited. Thus, for the disinherited of family members (who would normally get something if you died intestate), you need to specifically state in the Will something like, "I leave one dollar to my worthless son, Seymour." Otherwise, they could claim you forgot, but wanted to leave them their fair share.

[moogradod]

28 minutes ago, scorecard said:

.....................And in at least one of the cases all of the family members strongly backed that there was no valid reason why the sibling who was ignored by the mother should not receive the same benefit as all the other 3 or 4 siblings. 

I am totally surprized of that ruling in this case. How can the rest of the siblings stipulate what a valid reason was for the mother to exclude one specific person and the judge even ruled for them. I mean, that is exactly what a will is for. To tell your intentions.

 

This would be like saying in your will that you give your condo to your girlfriend but the judge decides that she is not worth it and gives it to somebody else only because there was some objection.

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, moogradod said:

I mean, that is exactly what a will is for. To TELL your intentions.

Right. And if your intention is NOT to leave anything to a family member who otherwise, if you died without a Will, would get his or her fair share, then, yes TELL your intentions in your Will.

 

This doesn't apply to someone not in the statutory line of inheritance, i.e., those legally considered if you die intestate. Thus, a GF would have little traction to argue for being left out of a will. "But he loved me mak mak" isn't mentioned in the Civil Code.

[moogradod]

23 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Right. And if your intention is NOT to leave anything to a family member who otherwise, if you died without a Will, would get his or her fair share, then, yes TELL your intentions in your Will.

 

This doesn't apply to someone not in the statutory line of inheritance, i.e., those legally considered if you die intestate. Thus, a GF would have little traction to argue for being left out of a will. "But he loved me mak mak" isn't mentioned in the Civil Code.

Absolutely. But this is peculiar to Thai inheritance law. If there IS A WILL, then statutory heirs may be left out. If there is no will, then not. But with a will you might inherit your condo to your girlfriend and not to your son. Of course not the other way round. "He promised me etc...." does not count. A question might arise if you have lived together with a GF for a very long time while not married. These cases are prone to cause trouble but I do not know the Thai Civil Code enough to say if it is here the same as in other countries abroad.

 

That is why a will is so important and to set it up correctly is so important. I cannot understand the posters here who want to save a few thousand Baht with do it yourself methods only to cause the decendants and Loved Ones possible headaches. Of course it all depends on the individual case which may range from super easy to super complicated.