Retirement visa/extension, the small print

[zzzzz]

53 minutes ago, pablo el sueco said:

For the first 12 years of my stay, there were no changes.  Thereafter, the following changes have left my head spinning

• 2019--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank.
• 2020--must submit TM28 Change of Address at extension application together with Cha Not, Tabien Baan, etc even if TM30 was done on the same date.
• 2020--12-month bank statement required at extension application.
• 2020--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank AND 6 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank.
• 2020--must purchase TGIA insurance for 400,000 coverage.
• 2021--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank AND 6 months after extension to prove 400,000 in bank.
• 2022--must purchase TGIA insurance for 3,000,000 baht /or/ be able to prove equivalent foreign coverage thru embassy /or/ be able to prove self-insurance for 3,000,000 baht for 2 months prior to extension application after denial of insurance coverage -- caveat, insurance funds must be in a separate bank account from the 800,000 used to fund the extension.

I'd say they've been pretty busy making up "new requirements" recently.

 

the above is for a Non O-A 
NOT a NON O
also not all immigrations ask you to return to show ur money is in the bank after the extension is issued, Phuket does not

[spambot]

3 hours ago, pablo el sueco said:

For the first 12 years of my stay, there were no changes.  Thereafter, the following changes have left my head spinning

• 2019--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank.
• 2020--must submit TM28 Change of Address at extension application together with Cha Not, Tabien Baan, etc even if TM30 was done on the same date.
• 2020--12-month bank statement required at extension application.
• 2020--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank AND 6 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank.
• 2020--must purchase TGIA insurance for 400,000 coverage.
• 2021--must reappear 3 months after extension to prove 800,000 in bank AND 6 months after extension to prove 400,000 in bank.
• 2022--must purchase TGIA insurance for 3,000,000 baht /or/ be able to prove equivalent foreign coverage thru embassy /or/ be able to prove self-insurance for 3,000,000 baht for 2 months prior to extension application after denial of insurance coverage -- caveat, insurance funds must be in a separate bank account from the 800,000 used to fund the extension.

I'd say they've been pretty busy making up "new requirements" recently.

 

Brilliant summary

[Misty]

14 hours ago, aussiexpat said:

I'm sure the longer wait times were due to all the covid extensions being done. Now that they are no more, wait times should be back to pre-covid normal

Let's hope so, although this was being reported pre-covid

[aussiexpat]

11 minutes ago, Misty said:

Let's hope so, although this was being reported pre-covid

Pre-covid there were minimum wait times at Jomtien. Turn up, fill out forms, 15 minutes all done

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, aussiexpat said:

Pre-covid there were minimum wait times at Jomtien. Turn up, fill out forms, 15 minutes all done

This thread is about extensions based on retirement.

Cannot ever recall that being done in 15 minutes. 

 

[aussiexpat]

10 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

This thread is about extensions based on retirement.

Cannot ever recall that being done in 15 minutes. 

 

Maybe you're old and fell asleep when they called your number?

[DrJack54]

36 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Maybe you're old and fell asleep when they called your number?

As always you never address your incorrect posts when pointed out. 

 

There is a list of requirements to obtain an extension based on retirement.

 

Some offices are more straightforward that others.

I'm personally doing one in October.

Already getting some paperwork together.

Such as lease etc.

That of course is apart from obtaining such things as bank letter etc etc.

Fortunately at CW I am able to make an appointment.

Even with a 10.30am appointment I will arrive 1+ hour early.

The banking will take 30+ minutes.

For the appointment you need to be 15 minutes early.

After the appointment you then need to wait.

Could be up to an hour.

Might be wrong but think Jomtien makes you return next day. 

 

To post a throw away line that it takes 15 minutes is simplistic in the extreme. 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by DrJack54

[xylophone]

17 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Some offices are more straightforward that others.

Agree with that statement Dr Jack54, although I've never experienced any quick service at Phuket, and every time one has to come back the following day to pick up the passport.

 

If you are lucky there are only a handful of people waiting outside of the first office one visits, however if you are not, then I have experienced well over 10 people waiting for their number to be called.

 

The process on the first day, provided everything goes smoothly, takes a few hours, however if they are being "difficult" then frequent visits to the photo copier to copy blank pages can slow things up even further.

 

Then of course return the next day for the passport.

[TheLaughingMan]

Ok I have a bit of a weird situation so any advice is greatly appreciated, my family member is going into a nursing home here in Bangkok, she will obviously need a retirement visa, but the thought of a little old lady with dementia doing visa runs or going to immigration repeatedly is ludicrous, so Im guessing an agent is the best route to go?  Is there a legal way to use an agent to turn her visa exempt into the correct visa for retirement and doing the entire process while shes in the nursing home?  We do have power of attourney but no idea if that is even recognised or necessary here.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, TheLaughingMan said:

  Is there a legal way to use an agent to turn her visa exempt into the correct visa for retirement and doing the entire process while shes in the nursing home?

Almost all agents can do non O retirement and subsequent extension using the clients money in the bank etc.

 

That will cost less than an agent doing the non O and extention without any funds in the bank.

 

With an aging expat community think your inquiry will become common question. 

 

[TheLaughingMan]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Almost all agents can do non O retirement and subsequent extension using the clients money in the bank etc.

 

That will cost less than an agent doing the non O and extention without any funds in the bank.

 

With an aging expat community think your inquiry will become common question. 

 

Ok so if we have the 800k in a Thai bank account she would not have to leave the country to transfer her visa exempt to a non O using an agent?  The problem Ive been having is opening a bank account at all with no work permit.  How do they expect us to put the money in a Thai bank account when they dont let us open a Thai bank account lol, ok ok I do know I can use an agent to open an account which is what I'll have to do I guess I just find it amusing the weird circle of non functionality this whole process is.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, TheLaughingMan said:

The problem Ive been having is opening a bank account at all with no work permit

Big problem in Bangkok as a residence certificate is often required and that's not possible on visa exempt.

The process of visa exempt to non O retirement and subsequent extension is very common. 

I suggest an agent for the bank account component.

They tend to use Bangkok Bank. 

 

[Joebuzzz]

Got resident letter in Jomtien 15 days ago, same visit 30 day extension.  Arrived visa on arrival 9-2.  Resident letter stated reason as future non-0 visa, Bangkok Bank account, drivers licenses for scooter and car, and vehicle purchase.   No agent.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Joebuzzz
Last sentence.

[zzzzz]

19 hours ago, TheLaughingMan said:

Ok so if we have the 800k in a Thai bank account she would not have to leave the country to transfer her visa exempt to a non O using an agent?  The problem Ive been having is opening a bank account at all with no work permit.  How do they expect us to put the money in a Thai bank account when they dont let us open a Thai bank account lol, ok ok I do know I can use an agent to open an account which is what I'll have to do I guess I just find it amusing the weird circle of non functionality this whole process is.

get your 90 day non o< you do NOT NEED a WP
open a bank account, 800,000 needs be in bank 60days before applying for extension>

getting new extension has been next day for a few years now

Getting Certificate of residency, never paid for it , always got it within 30 minutes

never had any problems at phuket immigration going back 30+ years
except ONCE TM30 when the house i rented was owned by the daughter of the land owner, so needed 2 POA's ????

Edited October 3, 2022 by zzzzz

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, zzzzz said:

get your 90 day non o< you do NOT NEED a WP
open a bank account, 800,000 needs be in bank 60days before applying for extension>

The person you are quoting is planning to obtain the non O retirement inside Thailand from a visa exempt entry.

To obtain the non O he requires a bank account with 800k on day of application.

The bank account is step 1..

[Joebuzzz]

Hi Folks.  A little advice would be appreciated.

So, 800K in Bangkok Bank, still have 27 days on my extension, I walk into Jomtien Immigration, get sent to window 6 for Non-O visa.  I told information lady I wasn't ready to submit and just wanted a list of what they required.  "Go to window 6".  Get to window 6 and ask fro a list of what they would like me to submit and the lady says "Go to immigration website".  Well that's kinda all over the place too when reading O vs O-A, etc.  Can anyone tell me EXACTLY what to submit?  I know, not much "exact" in anything here, but you get my drift.  Online it say's "Birth Certificate".  I didn't bring one.  I'm about ready to say "Hey Agent, take my money".

Thanks in advance.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Joebuzzz
misspell

[xylophone]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:26 PM, xylophone said:

For the record, a close friend is going to use an agent again this year even though he has had 800K in the bank for more than 10 years here, because last year he was bringing in money from the UK at a rate of 65K baht per month, and for some reason the overseas transfer didn't occur in one month and although he had the 800K in the bank the immigration officer wouldn't accept his application because of this, so my friend asked him why this was, when he had the 800K in the bank all the time, and the officer lost his temper and ordered him out of the office.

 

So my friend collected his paperwork and went to an agent and that's what he will do again this year.

I have just been talking to this friend of mine, because my retirement extension date is fast looming, as is his, and he is going to see his agent tomorrow to see how much it will cost him, even though he has had the 800k in the bank for years, so I quizzed him further on this............. 

 

When he was ordered out of the immigration office, he had given the officer the complete year statement from his Kasikorn Bank, showing over 800 K, untouched, in that account and he had taken along his normal bank book, plus all the normal paperwork, which the officer then perused.

 

My friend had been transferring 65k per month into his account, which he topped up as spending money, and the officer saw that one month he hadn't bought that 65 K into the country and quizzed him about it, to which my friend pointed out that he had more than the 800 K requirement in the bank anyway, but the I/O wouldn't have any of it and said that because he had missed a month it wasn't acceptable.

 

This friend pointed out to the officer that he had complied with the requirement to have 800 K in the bank and that superseded the 65K per month previous requirement, but the I/O became angry and ordered him out of the office, and as I have said previously he then used an agent.

 

Onto my case, the agent I spoke to requires 15,000 baht provided all of my paperwork is in order, however I have to go to immigration (which I was hoping not to have to do) to get my photograph taken, and the lady said I would be in and out in a matter of minutes and they would have my passport ready the next day.

 

I explained that I would rather not have to go to immigration and explained that they were not "nice people to deal with", and to my surprise this Thai person said that more and more farangs were having problems in that regard, and in her opinion the I/O's were just looking for ways to be able to make life difficult so that an agent had to be used, and they would get a cut of the cost of the agent.

 

So a Thai agent admitted that us poor farangs were getting a rough deal, and she quoted several other instances!

 

I'm still giving the agent route some thought and I will see what my friend says after his meeting with the agent tomorrow.

 

There is a Post Script to this, inasmuch as on another occasion the I/O accused him of working in the country and was adamant that this was the case, when in fact it wasn't as he has never worked in this country, so either he has been desperately unlucky or he's got one of those guilty faces!!!!!

 

Or they see him as an "easy touch"?

[JimGant]

52 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Onto my case, the agent I spoke to requires 15,000 baht provided all of my paperwork is in order, however I have to go to immigration

That's way too much, if your financials are in order and the agent is merely a facilitator. In CM, the current agent fee for hand holding, and maybe queue jumping, is 3000 baht agent fee (Best Friends agency). I'd pay more for never having to go to Imm, but that service is not an option, as long as I'm ambulatory.

[Misty]

52 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I have just been talking to this friend of mine, because my retirement extension date is fast looming, as is his, and he is going to see his agent tomorrow to see how much it will cost him, even though he has had the 800k in the bank for years, so I quizzed him further on this............. 

 

When he was ordered out of the immigration office, he had given the officer the complete year statement from his Kasikorn Bank, showing over 800 K, untouched, in that account and he had taken along his normal bank book, plus all the normal paperwork, which the officer then perused.

 

My friend had been transferring 65k per month into his account, which he topped up as spending money, and the officer saw that one month he hadn't bought that 65 K into the country and quizzed him about it, to which my friend pointed out that he had more than the 800 K requirement in the bank anyway, but the I/O wouldn't have any of it and said that because he had missed a month it wasn't acceptable.

 

This friend pointed out to the officer that he had complied with the requirement to have 800 K in the bank and that superseded the 65K per month previous requirement, but the I/O became angry and ordered him out of the office, and as I have said previously he then used an agent.

 

Onto my case, the agent I spoke to requires 15,000 baht provided all of my paperwork is in order, however I have to go to immigration (which I was hoping not to have to do) to get my photograph taken, and the lady said I would be in and out in a matter of minutes and they would have my passport ready the next day.

 

I explained that I would rather not have to go to immigration and explained that they were not "nice people to deal with", and to my surprise this Thai person said that more and more farangs were having problems in that regard, and in her opinion the I/O's were just looking for ways to be able to make life difficult so that an agent had to be used, and they would get a cut of the cost of the agent.

 

So a Thai agent admitted that us poor farangs were getting a rough deal, and she quoted several other instances!

 

I'm still giving the agent route some thought and I will see what my friend says after his meeting with the agent tomorrow.

 

There is a Post Script to this, inasmuch as on another occasion the I/O accused him of working in the country and was adamant that this was the case, when in fact it wasn't as he has never worked in this country, so either he has been desperately unlucky or he's got one of those guilty faces!!!!!

 

Or they see him as an "easy touch"?

QUOTATION

"I explained that I would rather not have to go to immigration and explained that they were not "nice people to deal with", and to my surprise this Thai person said that more and more farangs were having problems in that regard, and in her opinion the I/O's were just looking for ways to be able to make life difficult so that an agent had to be used, and they would get a cut of the cost of the agent.

 

So a Thai agent admitted that us poor farangs were getting a rough deal, and she quoted several other instances!"

 

This is what I've suspected. It's hard to otherwise explain the increasing dysfunction while doing valid NonB extensions in recent years. It ussed to be straight forward. 

 

And if it's true that IOs are creating problems to increase their take, it's also why using an agent can create problems for others. Using agents unfortunately feeds a whole growing infrastructure that then demands further feeding. 

 

That said, I really can't criticize anyone who qualifies for using an agent, given the dysfunction otherwise. Life is really too short.

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

That's way too much, if your financials are in order and the agent is merely a facilitator. In CM, the current agent fee for hand holding, and maybe queue jumping, is 3000 baht agent fee (Best Friends agency). I'd pay more for never having to go to Imm, but that service is not an option, as long as I'm ambulatory.

Unfortunately Phuket has its own set of rules and charges Jim, just as others have found out, so I will make my decision in a couple of days.

[JetsetBkk]

14 hours ago, xylophone said:

Unfortunately Phuket has its own set of rules and charges Jim, just as others have found out, so I will make my decision in a couple of days.

I didn't realise you were in Phuket!

(I know it says so under your name - I just forgot to check until now.)

I've been to Phuket Immi ... checks old passports ...  18 times for my O-A renewal. 

Never a problem, never used an agent.

 

[Kopitiam]

16 hours ago, xylophone said:

Unfortunately Phuket has its own set of rules and charges Jim, just as others have found out, so I will make my decision in a couple of days.

Phuket Imm is not special to have it's own set of rules.  Every Immigration office around Thailand has their own interpretation of rules.  Some even have different interpretations by IOs in the same office.

 

You and your friends must have very bad luck when dealing with the IO at Phuket Imm.  I have dealt with Phuket Imm office since 2011 renewing my extension of stay from a initial Non-OA visa.  Never had any problem even with all the changes to money in the bank requirement on my own.  I just did my extension renewal in August.

 

I have also transferred extension of stay to a new passport twice and not a single baht was demanded.  I reckon we are dealing with the same IO in Room 103.  He sits on the right side in the office.  Strict guy but fair.

 

I find the Phuket Imm Office to be very progressive and service orientated.  In 2011, all extensions were done in one big office upstairs.  They have progressively divided the different types of extensions to different parts of the compound to reduce congestion.  They even have a drive-through for 90-day reporting without having to fill in any form.  In fact, for the convenience of expats and tourists, they have sub-offices in Patong and Laguna for 90-day reporting.  More recently, they have torn down a few buildings in their compound to create a bigger carpark for people attending immigration matters to park their cars..  This is what I call progressive and service oriented.

 

Yes, Phuket Imm, like every other Thai Imm office has their own interpretation of rules.  We just have to live with it as "guests" in Thailand.  This is their working culture, like it or not.  The most positive interpretation of rules by the Phuket Imm is the medical insurance requirement for extension of stay based on Non-OA visa.  Anyone came before 2018/9 on Non-OA visa does not require medical insurance for renewal of extension of stay.  Kudos to Phuket Imm.

 

Good luck to you in your renewal of extension of stay.

[xylophone]

3 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

've been to Phuket Immi ... checks old passports ...  18 times for my O-A renewal. 

Never a problem,

Pleased to hear that, however that's not been my experience as you will have seen from my post a couple of days ago, nor the experience of my good friend here who has just today used an agent and everything went smoothly.

 

1 hour ago, Kopitiam said:

You and your friends must have very bad luck when dealing with the IO at Phuket Imm.  I have dealt with Phuket Imm office since 2011 renewing my extension of stay from a initial Non-OA visa.  Never had any problem even with all the changes to money in the bank requirement on my own.  I just did my extension renewal in August.

Yes, I can only think that it is bad luck, both on my behalf and the same with my friend, and I have been renewing my extension of stay since 2007.

 

You did mention that "every immigration office around Thailand has an interpretation of rules" and I think that's very much the case here as I believe I've just got to the bottom of why my friend was refused his extension of stay, even though he had 800K in the bank which had been there for years – – – – – you may recall that when the money in the bank scenario and the monthly remittance of 65K, along with a letter from the embassy, were in play, that it was reported from some I/Os that the 800K in the bank had to be in an accessible account, and not a long-term deposit account, whereas others just accepted the 800K irrespective of what type of account it was in.

 

My friend had the 800k in the bank in a four-year deposit account BUT he was able to access/withdraw that at any time provided he waived the interest earned, i.e. the bank did not pay it, so he thought he was safe, but not here in Phuket at that time.

 

I can only assume that this particular moment in time that this was the case.

 

Thank you for your good wishes with regard to my renewal of extension, and I have found a great workaround: – I will complete the necessary paperwork, get the statements and letter from the bank and trundle off to immigration a few days early just to give me some leeway.

 

If it all goes smoothly then I will be overjoyed, however if they manage to find a problem, whether it be real or manufactured, then I will simply leave the I/O and come back to Patong and use an agent – – sorted!!!!
 

[JetsetBkk]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

Pleased to hear that, however that's not been my experience as you will have seen from my post a couple of days ago, nor the experience of my good friend here who has just today used an agent and everything went smoothly.

 

Yes, I can only think that it is bad luck, both on my behalf and the same with my friend, and I have been renewing my extension of stay since 2007.

<snip>

Yes, I can't think what else it can be. You write posts like a nice bloke. I can't think why the Immi guys should give you a hard time.  ????

 

And today I went for my latest 90 day report - probably my 80th report, all told. The only problem I had was the idiot tourist who decided to stop his car on the black and yellow striped "No Waiting" area in the "Drive Thru" lane. A couple of short beeps on my pickup's horn got him shifted. Next report date: 1st Jan 2023. I wonder if they're open then? 

Edited October 4, 2022 by JetsetBkk
Font

[xylophone]

10 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Yes, I can't think what else it can be. You write posts like a nice bloke. I can't think why the Immi guys should give you a hard time.  ????

 

And today I went for my latest 90 day report - probably my 80th report, all told. The only problem I had was the idiot tourist who decided to stop his car on the black and yellow striped "No Waiting" area in the "Drive Thru" lane. A couple of short beeps on my pickup's horn got him shifted. Next report date: 1st Jan 2023. I wonder if they're open then? 

Thank you for the compliment @JetsetBkk and I have tried to be a good citizen since I've been here, helping out a few Thai families and Thai folk along the way (including a few farangs), as well as unofficially adopting my ex girlfriend's daughter and putting her through high school and university, which I'm still doing, and of course staying out of trouble.

 

Perhaps they sense an element of "fear/trepidation" in me when I visit them and they play on that, especially after the time when they tried to charge me for a transfer of information to a new passport, and I questioned it, so they put me through the hoops for a couple of days.

 

Anyway as I said in my previous post I'm going to give it another try, and use the agent as a backup if necessary. Today is the day of my 90 day report, which I will do at Patong and I've never had a problem there, simply in and out within a couple of minutes – – – if only they would do retirement extensions at that office, then I would be delighted.
 

[Mike Teavee]

On 10/2/2022 at 12:55 PM, DrJack54 said:

Big problem in Bangkok as a residence certificate is often required and that's not possible on visa exempt.

The process of visa exempt to non O retirement and subsequent extension is very common. 

I suggest an agent for the bank account component.

They tend to use Bangkok Bank. 

 

I used Siam Legal to open my Bank Account (was visiting for a long weekend on a Visa Exempt) 

 

More expensive than other agents (IIRC I paid 3,000b in 2017) but worth it to guarantee it got done as I only had the Friday to get it opened before flying back to Singapore & I needed the account opening to start the seeding process for my Non-Imm O. 

 

As an aside I ended up getting the Non-Imm O in Penang, really easy to do and I ended up with a 1 year Multi-Entry visa which was perfect for me as I was still working in SG at the time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

As an aside I ended up getting the Non-Imm O in Penang, really easy to do and I ended up with a 1 year Multi-Entry visa which was perfect for me as I was still working in SG at the time.

Thanks for report on bank account process.

Given that you ended up with ME Non O from Penang you would have been able to open bank account in Bangkok but as you outline the speed of opening one using an agent make the transition from visa exempt to non O in Thailand simple. 

 

The ME non O you obtained in Penang.....could you provide more details. 

So was that 2017 and was it based on marriage?

I wonder if currently available in Penang. 

Useful for some folk looking for alternative to Savannakhet.

Pre covid I think many use an agent if obtaining visa in Penang. 

[Mike Teavee]

22 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Thanks for report on bank account process.

Given that you ended up with ME Non O from Penang you would have been able to open bank account in Bangkok but as you outline the speed of opening one using an agent make the transition from visa exempt to non O in Thailand simple. 

 

The ME non O you obtained in Penang.....could you provide more details. 

So was that 2017 and was it based on marriage?

I wonder if currently available in Penang. 

Useful for some folk looking for alternative to Savannakhet.

Pre covid I think many use an agent if obtaining visa in Penang. 

The Visa was based on "Retirement" (Being over 50) & one of the things I had to show to get it was 800K in a Thai Bank Account (hence me opening the account before going to Penang), I also took proof of income including a certificate from the British Embassy confirming that my income was legit but this wasn't needed 

 

I fully expected to get a 3 month Single Entry Non-Imm O but when talking with the lady at the agency I mentioned that I was working in Singapore & visited Thailand often (20+ times a year) so she just got me a Multi-Entry 1 year Visa (Seem to recall I had to pay a little bit more for it). 

 

Edit: If anybody is interested in getting a Visa from Penang then Chulia Street is the place to go,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chulia_Street,_George_Town

 

I stayed at Chulia Mansions &  the agency I used was at the Banana hotel https://www.bananaboutiquepenang.com/

 

Very nice people, great service, highly recommend 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Mike Teavee

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

so she just got me a Multi-Entry 1 year Visa (Seem to recall I had to pay a little bit more for it). 

Find this post really interesting.

 

We all are very aware of availability of ME non O based on marriage from places such as Savannakhet, Saigon etc.

 

There was an expert (some time ago) insisted that a multi entry non O retirement (12 month visa) was available from Savannakhet.

However I have never seen a report of one.

 

The ME 12 month visa is very popular with some married guys. 

Would have thought it would also be popular with guys with non based on retirement. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

There was an expert (some time ago) insisted that a multi entry non O retirement (12 month visa) was available from Savannakhet.

However I have never seen a report of one.

I can recall several posts about Penang issuing a multiple entry non-o visas prior to covid 19. Also a few for Savannakhet.

No sure if they will do them now. It was on the Penang website before but the site has no info about visas on it now.