LTR Visa. How many qualify?

[Robin]

it would be interesting to know how many members of T/V Forum actually qualify for the new LTR Visa, either s Work from Thailand, or Wealthy Pensioner, Wealthy Global Citizens.

As I se it, the minimum income is 80,000 USD, which I do not think I have ever reached, and certainly not now.

OR;  an investment of 1 Million USD in Thailand;  if I had 1 Million to invest, it would not be in Thailand or a Thai company

OR property in Thailand, worth over 1 million USD.  Thailand is not where i would consider investing my 1 million in property.  I can get a better return and safer investment in my naive UK

 

I have always considered myself to be a 'comfortably off' pensione, and happy to retire to LOS, but no way am I ever going o meet any of these requirements.  Nor have ai ever met any other person her in LOS who might qualify.

So, is this some 'Pie in the sky' group of people who only exist in Thai government imagination, or are the thousands of these wealthy individuals queueing up to live in Thailand?

Will the Thai government ever publish figures of how many LTR visas have been issued?

My own circumstances?  

I have been in LOS for 6 years on Non Imm. O retirement extensions.  I am married to a Thai and we own our own house, but it is not worth 1 million USD.

I can afford to keep 800,000 baht in the bank and pay the fees fro extending my visa every year, but I could never meet and of these LTR requirements.

How many forum member could?

 

[FarAngMoh]

LTR should differentiate financial requirements by passport — these kinds of sky high financial requirements seem to be targeted at China (and it might make sense for that purpose), but for Western passports — who is that desperate?

 

Even for those who can afford it, who would put substantial chunks of their wealth at risk by sinking it into Thai assets… just for the sake of having this LTR visa? You’ve either got to be so wealthy that the risk becomes meaningless, or so foolish that you might not be wealthy for long (how does that saying go… a fool and his money are soon departed).

Edited October 12, 2022 by FarAngMoh

[travelerjim]

A friend obtained his LTR Visa a week ago..

His was #176...

So it appears that there's many expats who do qualify. With the proof of US $80,000 income for recent 2 years being the way many are using to qualify for the LTR.

[khunjeff]

Lots of people qualify for these visas. What the percentage is, I have no idea, but the idea was to target wealthy foreigners, so it shouldn't be a surprise that other non-"wealthy" folks don't meet the requirements. One can reasonably argue over whether this is a sensible strategy from the Thai government, but the argument of "most people don't qualify, therefore the policy shouldn't exist" is a bit odd. 

[Berti]

I wonder if pensioners qualify if they had 80.000.- investment income during the bull market the last years. Now no income but loss in 2022.

[wwest5829]

My reality at retirement was that I could live a comfortable, sustainable retirement if I located in a lower cost country. My outlook is that my retirement in Thailand is mutually beneficial. If Thailand turns to take a different view … we’ll there were other alternatives. Thailand obviously was my first choice for several criteria.

[FarAngMoh]

The LTR does seem best suited to a narrow demographic — those who are about to retire., are 100% set on Thailand and making $80k the last 2 years. All stars must align.
 

I know an American guy who retired last year from a US company Singapore. He had lived in Asia for decades and was a Singapore PR. He had the option to keep it but was also considering Thailand. He earned many multiples over $80k. But, last I heard he moved back to the states. And let’s face it, is what most (without a connection here) end up doing, even expats. 

[wtboatr]

Is the requirement to qualify for the LTR visa:

 

$80k per year in income and $1 million USD investment; or 

 

$80k per year in income or $1 million USD investment.

 

If the requirement is the former, yes I qualify.  If it’s the latter, I do not. 

 

[geisha]

13 hours ago, wtboatr said:

Is the requirement to qualify for the LTR visa:

 

$80k per year in income and $1 million USD investment; or 

 

$80k per year in income or $1 million USD investment.

 

If the requirement is the former, yes I qualify.  If it’s the latter, I do not. 

 

But surely if you qualify for the first, you qualify for the latter too ?

[aublumberg]

16 hours ago, wtboatr said:

Is the requirement to qualify for the LTR visa:

$80k per year in income and $1 million USD investment; or 

$80k per year in income or $1 million USD investment.

If the requirement is the former, yes I qualify.  If it’s the latter, I do not. 

 

Neither is correct. The requirements are (see https://ltr.boi.go.th/#type) :

• At least USD 1 million in assets

• Personal income of a minimum of USD 80,000/ year in the past two years

• Investment of at least USD 500,000 in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property

• Health insurance with at least USD 50,000 coverage or social security benefits insuring treatment in Thailand or at least USD 100,000 deposit

• Applicants must fulfill all of the above requirements to be eligible for Wealthy Global Citizens application

Edited October 13, 2022 by aublumberg

[soisanuk]

For Wealthy Pensioner:

 

Quote

Retirees aged 50 years and older who have an annual pension or stable income

• Personal income of at least USD 80,000/year at the time of application

• In case of personal income below USD 80,000/year but no less than USD 40,000/year, applicants must invest at least USD 250,000 in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property

• Health insurance with at least USD 50,000 coverage or social security benefits insuring treatment in Thailand or at least USD 100,000 deposit

 

[Caldera]

I don't think that there are many who qualify AND haven't already qualified previously, under any of the previously existing schemes.

 

Most applicants are probably just switching over from another kind of visa or extension, for additional benefits and added convenience.

 

The net gain for Thailand in terms of wealthy individuals will be very limited. Nowhere near the numbers they dreamed up, as per usual. 

[Klonko]

30 minutes ago, Caldera said:

I don't think that there are many who qualify AND haven't already qualified previously, under any of the previously existing schemes.

 

Most applicants are probably just switching over from another kind of visa or extension, for additional benefits and added convenience.

 

The net gain for Thailand in terms of wealthy individuals will be very limited. Nowhere near the numbers they dreamed up, as per usual. 

Given the current rules, I expect many Elite visa holders to switch to LTR upon expiry of their membership. I do not think that the lower LTR costs will motivate many more wealthy people to come to Thailand. If your wealthy, you are financially more driven by tax considerations (sorry for U.S. citizens) than visa fees, and choice of domicile has not been likely to depend on annualized fees for Elite membership..

[JimGant]

15 hours ago, aublumberg said:

Neither is correct. The requirements are

You're quoting the requirements for a Wealthy Global Citizen, which are more onerous than the requirements for a Wealthy Pensioner. Those requirement are given, above, by soisanuk.

[aublumberg]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You're quoting the requirements for a Wealthy Global Citizen, which are more onerous than the requirements for a Wealthy Pensioner. Those requirement are given, above, by soisanuk.

Yes I am indeed and I did that because the original question above was related to the USD1m investment. There is no other category than the WGC that has USD1m referenced (but USD1m in terms of assets, not investments which is USD500k). Whether one category is easier than another depends on each individual's circumstances. 

 

[JimGant]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:18 PM, travelerjim said:

So it appears that there's many expats who do qualify. With the proof of US $80,000 income for recent 2 years

Actually, it's only current income of 80k for Wealthy Pensioner. The 2 year requirement is for Wealthy Global Citizens. Probably makes no difference for most.

 

And in my situation, I'm retired Air Force, 20 years only. But that pension plus my Social Security gets me to 75k. The remainder is made up with drawdowns of my conventional IRA, which the BoI views as a self-administered retirement annuity. And remember, BoI is only looking for gross income (I asked).

 

So, if you've got an IRA of any flavor, or a 401k -- you may be closer to the 80k retirement than you think......

 

It was no hardship to withdraw from my IRA, since I was required to withdraw anyway, due to the Required Minimum Distribution (RMD) requirement, which more than covered that 5k gap.

[JimGant]

10 minutes ago, aublumberg said:

Whether one category is easier than another depends on each individual's circumstances. 

Certainly a Wealthy Pensioner can be less wealthy than a Wealthy Global person. In fact, he can only have 40k in current income, plus investing 250k in Thailand -- half the investment required for Global persons.

[aublumberg]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Certainly a Wealthy Pensioner can be less wealthy than a Wealthy Global person. 

Yup but a pensioner needs to be age 50 or above to qualify, no such age requirement for the wealthy global citizen.

[mrmagyar]

Something that is always overlooked by people claiming that 'nobody with that amount of money would ever want to live in Thailand' is that Thailand does not tax foreign sourced income that isn't remitted in the year that it's earned.

 

That's a very unique and incredibly attractive proposition. If you're faced with paying 40-50% tax in any western nation, or effectively 0 in Thailand, you very quickly get paid back for your investment costs.

 

$500k put into Thai property might not yield a huge return. It might not appreciate much or at all. But it's very unlikely to go to zero either. So that bit of depreciation that you might suffer is relatively small change for having a place to live in a country that you enjoy whilst saving yourself fully half of all of your foreign sourced income.

[rickudon]

80,000 dollars is about 3 times the average UK pension. Few who would have that much.

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, aublumberg said:

Yup but a pensioner needs to be age 50 or above to qualify, no such age requirement for the wealthy global citizen.

Yeah, I guess I'd trade rich and young for old and comfortable. Unfortunately, that opportunity has come and gone. Sigh.

[wtboatr]

8 hours ago, mrmagyar said:

Thailand does not tax foreign sourced income that isn't remitted in the year that it's earned.

Question:   If I convert my monthly pension from USD to THB and send it to my Thai bank account each and every month, am I liable to pay taxes to Thailand?

[mrmagyar]

1 minute ago, wtboatr said:

Question:   If I convert my monthly pension from USD to THB and send it to my Thai bank account each and every month, am I liable to pay taxes to Thailand?

I doubt it, as I assume that it arrives to you with relevant US taxes paid. But i'm no expert on that subject

[K2938]

12 hours ago, JimGant said:

The remainder is made up with drawdowns of my conventional IRA, which the BoI views as a self-administered retirement annuity.

Just to clarify:  Did you have to show the actual drawdown or would it just be sufficient to show the amount in the account for potential drawdown?  And did you actually get approval based on this or are you saying that you would expect approval based on this, but have not received approval yet?  Thank you!

[FarAngMoh]

One thing I noticed on my monthly TD Ameritrade statement, it shows a total estimated annual income based on the current dividend yield of my equity holdings. I would think such a document should be usable as for a portion of income proof. 

[pepper402]

10 minutes ago, FarAngMoh said:

One thing I noticed on my monthly TD Ameritrade statement, it shows a total estimated annual income based on the current dividend yield of my equity holdings. I would think such a document should be usable as for a portion of income proof. 

Sounds like you have close to $8 Million in your account (based on the S&P dividend yield).  Nice!  I applied for the Wealthy Pensioner and submitted income statements from some employers.  The analyst at BOI seemed to indicate that he was looking for pension income and not work income.  Presumably you will be able to use dividend income if you are applying for the Wealthy Global Citizen.  Good luck! 

[FarAngMoh]

7 minutes ago, pepper402 said:

Sounds like you have close to $8 Million in your account (based on the S&P dividend yield).  Nice!  I applied for the Wealthy Pensioner and submitted income statements from some employers.  The analyst at BOI seemed to indicate that he was looking for pension income and not work income.  Presumably you will be able to use dividend income if you are applying for the Wealthy Global Citizen.  Good luck! 

I said a portion of the income requirement, not the entire income requirement! 
 

$8m would be nice though!

[Misty]

On 10/13/2022 at 12:45 AM, FarAngMoh said:

The LTR does seem best suited to a narrow demographic — those who are about to retire., are 100% set on Thailand and making $80k the last 2 years. All stars must align.
 

I know an American guy who retired last year from a US company Singapore. He had lived in Asia for decades and was a Singapore PR. He had the option to keep it but was also considering Thailand. He earned many multiples over $80k. But, last I heard he moved back to the states. And let’s face it, is what most (without a connection here) end up doing, even expats. 

LTR visas allow working, so also very suitable for those who wish to work. For some that may be the main attraction.

[FarAngMoh]

7 hours ago, Misty said:

LTR visas allow working, so also very suitable for those who wish to work. For some that may be the main attraction.

You are right - that really is a unique and major differentiator, for those who can take advantage of it. 
 

Plenty of other countries offer zero tax on overseas income… Malaysia, Philippines (for non-Filipinos) and Vietnam (for certain types of investment income), so that feature is not so special. AFAIK, the only major country in Southeast Asia where a foreign retiree’s overseas investment income is subject to tax is Indonesia, but even there, tax treaty might eliminate some or all of it.

[Boomer6969]

IMHO the BOI/LTR visa range is pragmatic and comprehensive. Their only weakness is the availability of redundant offers such as OA, OX Elite, etc.

 

As far as retirement is concerned the LTR should become the only long term option, while extended tourist visas (3 or 6 months a year) could be offered to retirees. Of course people established under Non O and Non OA, etc should have the possibility to remain under their current conditions.

 

Now that leaves out the Marriage option, which the Thais will probably leave as it is now.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Boomer6969