Thainess - a true definition?

[BangkokReady]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I said, 'as a Thai citizen". Stop hijacking the thread lol

You said "I am Thai".  I'm not hijacking anything.  I just wanted to clarify as it is relevant to the argument you were making.

[BangkokReady]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I am not a foreigner. 

Sure.

[peterrabbit]

19 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

After reading a few comments in this thread it seems they didn't give you the medicine you demanded. 

That doesn't mean they don't give it to any westerners. 

Maybe they just didn't like you or your attitude. That doesn't make is racist. 

I didn't demand anything.

 

The doctor told me she was prescribing me antiviral medicines because it was necessary that I had them. 

 

She then told me that her boss had told her that she could NOT dispense these drugs to Falangs regardless of their medical condition.

 

She said she had asked her boss to reconsider and allow her to prescribe these drugs to me as it was necessary but he had refused to do so because the "Big boss" had issued an "order" from Banglamung to NOT allow these drugs to be prescribed to falangs.

 

Can it be any clearer that an order has been issued, by senior hospital management, not to dispense these life saving medications to foreigners. 

 

Now is this "nationalism" or downright racism? I don't see any difference when I am denied life saving medication, even if I am willing to pay "falang rates", just because I am not Thai.

[473geo]

3 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

I didn't demand anything.

 

The doctor told me she was prescribing me antiviral medicines because it was necessary that I had them. 

 

She then told me that her boss had told her that she could NOT dispense these drugs to Falangs regardless of their medical condition.

 

She said she had asked her boss to reconsider and allow her to prescribe these drugs to me as it was necessary but he had refused to do so because the "Big boss" had issued an "order" from Banglamung to NOT allow these drugs to be prescribed to falangs.

 

Can it be any clearer that an order has been issued, by senior hospital management, not to dispense these life saving medications to foreigners. 

 

Now is this "nationalism" or downright racism? I don't see any difference when I am denied life saving medication, even if I am willing to pay "falang rates", just because I am not Thai.

Presumably you did obtain the life saving medication from elsewhere otherwise you would be dead 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, peterrabbit said:

It was based on a racist policy which discriminates against NON Thais in the disbursement of Western produced medication to Westerners.

If you ever went to a Western Country would a Thai be discriminated against in such a manor? No they would not so why are the Thai authorities discriminating against Westerners?

Read the dictionary definition of racism!

I agree with Neeranam....  even though I mentioned that the policy is racist and it certainly seems so... I'ts not racist, not in the true sense of the word as we witness it at is worst in other area’s of the world. 

 

Such policies are nationalist and perhaps border on xenophobia with understandable interpretations of undertones of racism.

 

Why ??? and why does Neeranam know this ??.... Because he’s British (apologies Neeranam, Scottish), but he also holds dual nationality and is also Thai, the dual pricing or unequal treatment many of us witness and discuss does is not experienced by Neeranam because they are based upon nationality, he is a strong example of ‘racism’ not existing in Thailand in the context we discuss on this forum. 

 

 

My argument is that many of these policies being based on nationality alone are unfair and wrong, they are clumsy, insulting and not mirrored in our home nations which do have policies based on residency, but not nationality..... Thus, IF Thailand were to be considered moderate, fair and not be accused of bordering on xenophobia with understandable interpretations of undertones of racism where policies of differentiation exist, Thailand should either remove them completely or base them on residency and extricate itself to the the high-ground. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Presumably you did obtain the life saving medication from elsewhere otherwise you would be dead 

...deliberately obtuse much ???

 

The Op explained the situation well enough to understand, the Dr. prescribed mediation that would help his condition.

Life saving is of course an exaggeration, but antiviral medication has also saved lives during the Covid pandemic. 

[newnative]

48 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

In civilised countries patients are treated on a medical need basis regardless of their race or nationality. Even in wars wounded soldiers are treated on the seriousness of their medical needs and not whose side they are on.

Your statement that the government policy of denying medication to patients who are not Thai is not RACIST is false. It is totally racist as you obviously are. Racism is not just the colour of a person's skin or economic circumstances but the ethnic group that they belong to being discriminated against. 

Why don't you educate yourself on the meaning of racism so you won't make such obvious racist comments in future.

      I'm fully aware of what racism is.  You were not a victim of racism, sorry.  Your experience had nothing to do with race or ethnicity.   Being a non-citizen is neither a race or an ethnicity.  You may have been discriminated against, but it was not racial discrimination.   I do not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of language; nor the excuse of being lazy--writers using 'racist' when they are just too lazy to actually find the correct word. 

     I'm also well-aware that you are not the only one miss-using the word.  These days, the slightest offense and out comes 'racist' to describe the experience.  "That old dude got a discount on his movie ticket and I didn't!  That's so racist!"  Unfortunately, this results in the word losing its force and being devalued.  It's a very important, powerful word and should not be cheapened by being carelessly used without thought to describe anything remotely offensive.  When you're actually a victim of racism, you'll know it.

[473geo]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

...deliberately obtuse much ???

 

The Op explained the situation well enough to understand, the Dr. prescribed mediation that would help his condition.

Life saving is of course an exaggeration, but antiviral medication has also saved lives during the Covid pandemic. 

Well if the pharmacy where the OP recd his anti virals, was not much further out of the way than the hospital dispensary then we could perhaps ascertain this is much ado about nothing 

 

We don't appear to be supplied with this information Richard perhaps the whole story is obtuse 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

I'm fully aware of what racism is.  You were not a victim of racism, sorry.  Your experience had nothing to do with race or ethnicity.   Being a non-citizen is neither a race or an ethnicity.  You may have been discriminated against, but it was not racial discrimination. 

IF we’re going to get into the nuts and bots of it, the policy still ‘could’ have been racist...

... Would a Burmese, Vietnamese, Cambodian etc also be refused medication from the hospital in the same situation or was it as the op stated?...

 

‘She [the treating medical practitioner] then told me that her boss had told her that she could NOT dispense these drugs to Falangs regardless of their medical condition'

 

Thus, what is meant by ‘Falang / Farang’ in this instance ???  white foreigners?

... or was the Dr simplifying the statement and instead of highlighting  ’non-Thais’ used the work ‘farang’ (a world I very rarely here educated professionals use - perhaps the Dr’s handle of English was not as strong).

.... OR... did the Dr. actually state ’non-Thai’s'.... and the the Op has since stated ‘Falang’....??

 

Where language is a barrier, there is plenty of scope for variance in the underlying wording, meaning and facts of the policy the hospital was operating under. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Well if the pharmacy where the OP recd his anti virals, was not much further out of the way than the hospital dispensary then we could perhaps ascertain this is much ado about nothing 

 

We don't appear to be supplied with this information Richard perhaps the whole story is obtuse 

Agreed... thats also a possibility.... 

 

 

One thing which is somewhat odd in the story....  Since when does a ‘big boss’ get involved with a Dr’s diagnosis and prescription ???

 

It does seem very strange that a Dr would prescribe something only for the ‘Big Boss’ to say no...  at which point in the proceedings was he consulted etc ?...   

 

Note: (as already pointed out) IF the mediation was Favipiravir is neither expensive or in short supply in Thailand, so the response is just strange. 

[473geo]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Agreed... thats also a possibility.... 

 

 

One thing which is somewhat odd in the story....  Since when does a ‘big boss’ get involved with a Dr’s diagnosis and prescription ???

 

It does seem very strange that a Dr would prescribe something only for the ‘Big Boss’ to say no...  at which point in the proceedings was he consulted etc ?...   

 

Note: (as already pointed out) IF the mediation was Favipiravir is neither expensive or in short supply in Thailand, so the response is just strange. 

Surely Richard you are experienced enough to understand the introduction and implementation of authority signature chains in Thailand as a means of control 

 

[peterrabbit]

1 hour ago, Adumbration said:

Why did you go to the hospital in the first place.  You knew what drug you were after.  Why not just check proper dosage on google and then go straight to the pharmacy and buy it.

I didn't know which antiviral drug I needed or the dose, my wife and daughter were given different drugs and doses so I needed to see a doctor who could prescribe the right drug for me.

 

The pharmacies don't have it and wouldn't give it you anyway without a proper prescription. The doctor only gave me a scrap of paper with the name and dosage on it, definitely not a proper prescription which her boss had prevented her from issuing because if she had given a proper prescription then the hospital would have had to dispense the medicine.

 

I went to Pattaya City Hospital after first phoning and checking they were dispensing covid medication as I was feeling so awful I didn't want to be running all round Pattaya trying to get prescribed and supplied the medication.

 

The hospital never told me where I could obtain the medicine, they only said "go to a pharmacy". I rang Fascino's main branch and they didn't have any. If Fascino doesn't have it then the chances of anyone else having it are low to non existent and I was in no condition to start running round town trying to find somewhere,  so I went to Memorial and paid "falang special prices" there.

[peterrabbit]

25 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Agreed... thats also a possibility.... 

 

 

One thing which is somewhat odd in the story....  Since when does a ‘big boss’ get involved with a Dr’s diagnosis and prescription ???

 

It does seem very strange that a Dr would prescribe something only for the ‘Big Boss’ to say no...  at which point in the proceedings was he consulted etc ?...   

 

Note: (as already pointed out) IF the mediation was Favipiravir is neither expensive or in short supply in Thailand, so the response is just strange. 

She prescribed Molnupiravir

 

She spoke to Her boss in the hospital who told Her his boss in Banglamung had issued an order NOT to dispense antiviral Covid drugs to falangs (possibly she ment foreigners) so she could not prescribe them for me even though in her medical opinion I absolutely needed them as I am a "high risk" patient.

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, peterrabbit said:

She prescribed Molnupiravir

 

She spoke to Her boss in the hospital who told Her his boss in Banglamung had issued an order NOT to dispense antiviral Covid drugs to falangs (possibly she ment foreigners) so she could not prescribe them for me even though in her medical opinion I absolutely needed them as I am a "high risk" patient.

Molnupiravir used to be expensive at 8000-10,000 baht per course but is now approx 600 baht per course.

 

No sensible reason to block the Op from receiving this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

40 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Surely Richard you are experienced enough to understand the introduction and implementation of authority signature chains in Thailand as a means of control 

 

Yes… the Dr. Being the authority….  Having further oversight is what surprises me in this case. 
I’d be surprised if any medication I’ve been prescribed in the past requires higher authority than a Dr’s signature.

[peterrabbit]

18 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Molnupiravir used to be expensive at 8000-10,000 baht per course but is now approx 600 baht per course.

 

No sensible reason to block the Op from receiving this. 

 

 

 

 

 

Memorial charged me 4000b for the medicine and 1050 for the hospital/doctors charges a total of 5050b. "falang special price"

[peterrabbit]

17 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes… the Dr. Being the authority….  Having further oversight is what surprises me in this case. 
I’d be surprised if any medication I’ve been prescribed in the past requires higher authority than a Dr’s signature.

As the doctor told me these instructions/policy had come directly from Her Boss's (big) Boss in Banglamung (I assume hospital) and it was over riding the doctors authority to prescribe Covid medication to their patients which was why She could NOT write a prescription for me.

 

If this had happened in any Western country there would be a hell of a court case being filed right now for large damages, even if that person was a Thai on holiday there. And it would, now doubt, result in a public enquiry to be set up to investigate why it happened in the first place with those responsible to be called to testify and face repercussions for their decisions that lead to it.

 

It's NOT the doctors fault. She told me She had been instructed by her boss, in no uncertain terms, that She could NOT under any circumstances prescribe antiviral Covid drugs to Falangs and this order had come from on high above Her immediate boss from his (big) boss (how high, was it just Banglamung or did it go higher to Chonburi or even Bangkok who knows?)

She could not have made it clearer that I HAD to have this medication, but being very unwell I was on my own as to where to go to obtain it. I was just told to "go get at pharmacy".

[Why Me]

I don't see any problem with a state-run hospital having a policy of offering certain treatments/drugs only to citizens. The logic of reserving government funds to care only for nationals is obvious. Not that it should be this way but it's certainly justifiable. And not racist by any means. And the OP's doctor was unable to override this rule, which as public servant she can't be blamed for. (The doctor's account of "I try for you but Big Boss him not let me" should be taken under advisement: she probably wanted to avoid a confrontation with the OP.)

 

The lesson here is that if you are in a life-threatening situation do not go to a government hospital because of (a) the policy the OP ran into, and (b) the level of care is likely (much) better at a private institution.

 

Caveat re (b): I was having major dental rehab done at a well-known private clinic here in Bkk couple of years ago when a serious complication emerged which they were unable to solve despite repeated attempts over a month. Then, a doctor at another clinic suggested I consult the "profs" at Mahidol University Dentistry near Victory Monument. I was sorted in two visits.

[1FinickyOne]

7 hours ago, peterrabbit said:

would a Thai be discriminated against in such a manor?

well, not in the manor maybe but Asians are being physically attacked in manner, due to race in my home country... including a vicious attack on a young Thai lady. There is a lot of open racism and sucker-punching etc... 

 

There is a lot of vicious discrimination in the world.. when you live in another culture, you can surely come to accept that things are often done differently than you might expect... 

 

I mean, why are all these people walking around saying sawasdee and smiling when they could just as easily say, "Good day fine sir, top of the morning to you"

 

I mean the nerve of them...  

[1FinickyOne]

3 hours ago, peterrabbit said:

If this had happened in any Western country there would be a hell of a court case being filed right now for large damages,

The great litigious societies... where prices go to the moon as people carry insurance to protect them from litigation... often frivolous too.  

 

Think how lucky you were to be spared years of expensive, life disrupting litigation... 

[2baht]

8 hours ago, Neeranam said:

a farang Thai

What's that??? You can only be born Thai! There are only, kaeks, jeks, farang and Khon Thai!

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, BangkokReady said:

You said "I am Thai".  I'm not hijacking anything.  I just wanted to clarify as it is relevant to the argument you were making.

I'm an American, I wasn't born there. But, I'm an American.....same same.

[jacko45k]

9 hours ago, peterrabbit said:

I do have health insurance, just not outpatient covers as its unaffordable here.

As I stated I fully expected to pay for it.

 

Perhaps you should fully read my post because your comments show you have not fully read it.

It is just 'Thainess'!

[twizzian]

We all know there is no consistency for any one thing or service here.

I was given the anti-bacterial medicines at a government hospital for free, but I did show the yellow book, which probably helped 

[mrmicbkktxl]

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I understand but would you like Thailand to be like the UK and let immigrants from all over to come and get equal treatment? 

Foreigners, especially over 60 are a huge burden on the Thai health system, one reason they ask for insurance now.

Going to the cheap hospitals does work out sometimes but you can't rely on them.  Calling them racist when they can't help is very inappropriate, after all they do for farang who can't afford private. 

Immigrants don't pay anything,most Thais don't pay anything or only a few baht  at government hospitals, farangs pay full price and pay cash,on top of that farangs get overcharged because they are farangs,and yes this is racistic and greedy.

[swm59nj]

After living here for three years.  I’m in Bangkok but traveled to other places.  I have come to the conclusion that the whole Thai friendliness thing is a tourist gimmick. 
I’m giving a personal impression of course.  I find a lot of rudeness here.  Big lack of manners and no concern for others.  I’m not sure if it’s due to ignorance or that’s just the culture.  And if you are a foreigner.  A number people will be nice to you.  If they think they can get something from you.  
Of course not all people are like this.  Some are nice,  considerate, trustworthy,  and have manners.  But from what I observe most are not. 
As for the government hospitals.  I don’t use them.  But Thais I have spoken to in the past gave the impression they are not treated well either.  
And my opinion is based on what I see in Thailand.  I’m not going to sugar coat it as some do because they don’t like their own country.  

[kinyara]

I got my Covid injections for free here in a well organised professional process, certainly grateful for that experience of Thainess.

[newnative]

9 hours ago, peterrabbit said:

Strange how history repeats itself.

Didn't Adolf Hitler, the head of the Socialist Nationalist party of Germany, constantly refer to nationalism, (for the good of Germany), as being the excuse for his barbaric and racist actions against non Germans?

     Again, you were turned away due to a nationalistic, not a racist, policy regarding medical care at a government hospital.  The debate should be on whether this was medically ethical on the part of the hospital, given your health condition when you were there.  In what circumstances should a non-Thai citizen be treated if there is a policy to treat only citizens?  Should your case have fallen under the exceptions?

     I do believe the word 'racist' is used far too often, thus cheapening it, when something is actually not racist, but is another form of discrimination.  You make my point best when, in your previous response, you called me 'racist' because I posted that you were not turned away because of your race but because you were not a Thai citizen.  See my point?  If every action is deemed 'racist' when it is not, what word will we use when something actually is racist?  Soon we will have:  Johnny:  2 + 2 = 5.  Mary:  Actually, it equals 4.  Johnny:  That is so racist to disagree with me!   Looking at your previous post, probably we're already there.

     

[BangkokReady]

5 hours ago, Why Me said:

The lesson here is that if you are in a life-threatening situation do not go to a government hospital because of (a) the policy the OP ran into, and (b) the level of care is likely (much) better at a private institution.

Doesn't it seem reasonable, if in a life-threatening situation, to simply go to the nearest hospital to your location, but expect to pay if you are not a citizen, rather than carefully having to seek out a private hospital because government hospitals will refuse to treat you?

[BangkokReady]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm an American, I wasn't born there. But, I'm an American.....same same.

I'm glad you feel that way, but he will always be a foreigner with Thai citizenship.  He will never be "Thai".