Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

That was an interview with the BBC published by business live and nothing to do with the Daily Mail and its a business owner wanting an endless supply of E.U workers for his businesses 

Yeah, I misremembered the news outlet but my point is the tory brexit backer now whingeing about not being able to hire foreign workers.

[candide]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

EU wasn't a problem with trading with the rest of the world what planet are you on. 

Lol! The EU is the economic entity with the largest number and scope of trade deals in the world. And there are more in the pipes.

https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-trade-relationships-country-and-region/negotiations-and-agreements_en

[pacovl46]

12 hours ago, DezLez said:

Not really a helpful and erudite post!

Doesn't surprise me, since you didn't get my initial post either...

[candide]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The E.U doesn't and didn't have a trade deal with the USA either .

Some people are saying it was a big mistake to leave the E.U because now we don't have a trade deal with the USA.....................but we didn't have a trade deal with the USA whilst a EU member either 

There was a deal which was close to completion, but Trump crashed it because it had been initiated by Obama. Same as the TPP.

[Mac Mickmanus]

29 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Yeah, I misremembered the news outlet but my point is the tory brexit backer now whingeing about not being able to hire foreign workers.

Fair enough, as you misread the title of this thread and thought it was about comparing the U.K to other E.U countries, I can accept that you got your newspapers mixed .

   The guy in questions company made 840 Million GBP profit last year and some of that would be due to employing cheap E.U workers .

  Maybe now he would need to pay people a decent wage to the workers and unfortunately for him, his 840 Million quid a year profit may be reduced a bit 

[johnnybangkok]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Fair enough, as you misread the title of this thread and thought it was about comparing the U.K to other E.U countries, I can accept that you got your newspapers mixed .

   The guy in questions company made 840 Million GBP profit last year and some of that would be due to employing cheap E.U workers .

  Maybe now he would need to pay people a decent wage to the workers and unfortunately for him, his 840 Million quid a year profit may be reduced a bit 

One more time for the hard of understanding. You cannot employ 'cheap labour' as the UK has a minimum wage requirement (which the boss of Next would only be too aware of). 

Perhaps hod carriers in Cricklwood are different but it certainly isn't the case for 99% of British companies.

[Mac Mickmanus]

15 minutes ago, candide said:

There was a deal which was close to completion, but Trump crashed it because it had been initiated by Obama. Same as the TPP.

Well , apart from the fact that TPP wasn't initiated by Obama and talks began whilst George Bush was POTUS

[candide]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well , apart from the fact that TPP wasn't initiated by Obama and talks began whilst George Bush was POTUS

You're right, but did it make any difference for Trump? For him, it was a legacy of the previous administration.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

One more time for the hard of understanding. You cannot employ 'cheap labour' as the UK has a minimum wage requirement (which the boss of Next would only be too aware of). 

Perhaps hod carriers in Cricklwood are different but it certainly isn't the case for 99% of British companies.

Cheap labour doesn't need to be below the minimum wage . Minimum wage IS cheap labour .

   

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

You're right, but did it make any difference for Trump? For him, it was a legacy of the previous administration.

Try to forget about Trump for a while( or there are other threads where you can join in the daily rants about him)

[candide]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Try to forget about Trump for a while( or there are other threads where you can join in the daily rants about him)

My point was that there was a deal close to completion. For some reason, you jumped on the least relevant part of my post (Trump).

[johnnybangkok]

58 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Cheap labour doesn't need to be below the minimum wage . Minimum wage IS cheap labour .

   

The point being, it's legal.

 

You're yet again badly infering that 'cheap' labour is somehow attached to the movement of labour in EU states, when someone from Worksop is paid the same in the Uk than someone from Warsaw. There is a requirement to pay a certain, minimum wage in the UK so your 'employing cheap E.U workers' doesn't work as the are just the same 'price' as Brits. The difference being many Brits just don't want to pick berries in Somerset or carry hods in Cricklwood.   

 

And just as a footnote, I do think large corporations have sacrificed the good of the common man for share-holder interests but that's a bit left wing thinking for you but is at the heart of why the uk is struggling more than other countries (Hint: that's what Brexit was about). 

[Mac Mickmanus]

15 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

The point being, it's legal.

 

You're yet again badly infering that 'cheap' labour is somehow attached to the movement of labour in EU states, when someone from Worksop is paid the same in the Uk than someone from Warsaw. There is a requirement to pay a certain, minimum wage in the UK so your 'employing cheap E.U workers' doesn't work as the are just the same 'price' as Brits. The difference being many Brits just don't want to pick berries in Somerset or carry hods in Cricklwood.   

 

And just as a footnote, I do think large corporations have sacrificed the good of the common man for share-holder interests but that's a bit left wing thinking for you but is at the heart of why the uk is struggling more than other countries (Hint: that's what Brexit was about). 

Forget about about minimum  wage :

Carl from Carshalton the Hod carrier earns 20 Pound an hour on a building site in Cricklewood 

Piotr comes over from Poland and carries the hod for 15 Pound an hour in Paddington  =     Cheap labour 

[Chomper Higgot]

While the UK Government struggles to reverse the damage done to the UK economy by the UK Government, the pesky French steal the ‘Golden Goose’:

 

Paris has just past London as the largest European stock exchange:

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/stocks/london-loses-its-status-as-biggest-european-stock-market-to-paris 

 

They didn’t even say s'il vous plait or merci.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Forget about about minimum  wage :

Carl from Carshalton the Hod carrier earns 20 Pound an hour on a building site in Cricklewood 

Piotr comes over from Poland and carries the hod for 15 Pound an hour in Paddington  =     Cheap labour 

Or so you allege.

[Mac Mickmanus]

28 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

 

 

And just as a footnote, I do think large corporations have sacrificed the good of the common man for share-holder interests but that's a bit left wing thinking for you but is at the heart of why the uk is struggling more than other countries (Hint: that's what Brexit was about). 

This  subject thread topic is comparing the U.K to just three other E.U Countries , (Germany , France and Italy) and you are laying the blame on Brexit because their economies are stronger then the U.Ks

  But Germanys economy was better than the UKs even before Brexit and Frances tourist industry has boosted their economy .

   If you compare the U.K to all other E.U Countries , (instead of just a select few) , the UK is doing quite well 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

This  subject thread topic is comparing the U.K to just three other E.U Countries , (Germany , France and Italy) and you are laying the blame on Brexit because their economies are stronger then the U.Ks

  But Germanys economy was better than the UKs even before Brexit and Frances tourist industry has boosted their economy .

   If you compare the U.K to all other E.U Countries , (instead of just a select few) , the UK is doing quite well 

Why do you think it's rational to compare the UK's economy to say Bulgaria's? What is rational is to compare how it's doing in comparison to other fully developed EU economies.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why do you think it's rational to compare the UK's economy to say Bulgaria's? What is rational is to compare how it's doing in comparison to other fully developed EU economies.

The suggestion is that leaving the E.U has been harmful to the UK economy and to prove this they are comparing the UK to Canada, Japan and the USA , who have nothing to do with the E.U

   To get a true picture of the effect of the UK leaving the E.U , you would have to compare the UK to all the other E.U Countries , not just the three strongest Countries (France , Germany and Italy)

   Like it doesn't make sense : "The UK is suffering from leaving the E.U because the USA has a stringer economy" 

   There is no connection between the UK leaving the E.U and the USAs economy .

   Two separate issues 

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The E.U doesn't and didn't have a trade deal with the USA either .

Some people are saying it was a big mistake to leave the E.U because now we don't have a trade deal with the USA.....................but we didn't have a trade deal with the USA whilst a EU member either 

And how does that address my initial question to Kwasaki, who inferred that the EU had problems trading with the rest of the world?

[candide]

15 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

This  subject thread topic is comparing the U.K to just three other E.U Countries , (Germany , France and Italy) and you are laying the blame on Brexit because their economies are stronger then the U.Ks

  But Germanys economy was better than the UKs even before Brexit and Frances tourist industry has boosted their economy .

   If you compare the U.K to all other E.U Countries , (instead of just a select few) , the UK is doing quite well 

There are identified reasons for the relative performance of each country. For Germany, It's energy (Russian gas), and a too significant dependence on the Russian and Chinese markets. For France, It's not only tourism, but also energy production (nuclear). For UK, It's..... Brexit!

[johnnybangkok]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

This  subject thread topic is comparing the U.K to just three other E.U Countries , (Germany , France and Italy) and you are laying the blame on Brexit because their economies are stronger then the U.Ks

  But Germanys economy was better than the UKs even before Brexit and Frances tourist industry has boosted their economy .

   If you compare the U.K to all other E.U Countries , (instead of just a select few) , the UK is doing quite well 

I am absolutely not laying the blame for the UK's ills all on Brexit. I think I've been consistent in saying it's part of the problem (but a fairly major one). No. I entirley blame the Tories.

You are obviosly not up on UK economics so let's just give you a quick rundown.  The UK isn't doing well. If you paint yourself as a major pillar of worldwide financial stability, you can't just do the nonsense we have seen from the Tories in the last 5 years. They started with Brexit, blundered through Covid (whilst spending a HUGE amount of money) and in their pearls of wisdom, thought the 'cure' was to lower taxes and 'free' financial markets. This was such a bad policy that the Bank of England had to intervene to basically save the country and voila, the shortest reigning PM of all time. Aside from this debackle, the actual major downside is government debt is no longer seen as a safe bet, and borrowing costs are more; much more. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that the debt interest payable on central government's outstanding debt will be £87.2 billion for the current financial year. This figure isn't going to get any smaller any time soon, hence the Tories panick offering of (which you will see the week) Austerity 2.0. They need to get interest payments down and borrowers wants to see a clear way of paying down the debt and there's not many ways of doing this (and the one Truss offered got the reception it deserved) other than raise taxes and spend less.

This is why the uk is struggling more than other countries and why you personally are going to start seeing the downside very, very soon. They have no choice but to go for higher taxes and austerity, so tell me in 3 months how that doesn't affect you. 

As usual, the poor will be made to pay but I think the public uproar of Truss's blunder will at least mean that the rich will also feel the pinch, but as usual, it won't hurt them nearly as much.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

There are identified reasons for the relative performance of each country. For Germany, It's energy (Russian gas), and a too significant dependence on the Russian and Chinese markets. For France, It's not only tourism, but also energy production (nuclear). For UK, It's..... Brexit!

Nice to hear that if the U.K had remained in the E.U , we wouldn't have been effected by Covid or the Ukrainian  war or the general worldwide recession  ????

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The suggestion is that leaving the E.U has been harmful to the UK economy and to prove this they are comparing the UK to Canada, Japan and the USA , who have nothing to do with the E.U

   To get a true picture of the effect of the UK leaving the E.U , you would have to compare the UK to all the other E.U Countries , not just the three strongest Countries (France , Germany and Italy)

   Like it doesn't make sense : "The UK is suffering from leaving the E.U because the USA has a stringer economy" 

   There is no connection between the UK leaving the E.U and the USAs economy .

   Two separate issues 

So you think it makes sense to compare the performance of a fully developed economy to one that is very undeveloped just because it's in the EU? Why not compare the UK's economy to Peru's instead? The relevance would be about the same. But if the UK's economy was compared to those of France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, and Belgium, that would make sense.

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So you think it makes sense to compare the performance of a fully developed economy to one that is very undeveloped just because it's in the EU? Why not compare the UK's economy to Peru's instead? The relevance would be about the same. But if the UK's economy was compared to those of France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, and Belgium, that would make sense.

We are talking about the effects of Brexit and the UK leaving the E.U and to make a fair assessment you would have to compare he UKs economy to other Countries who are still in the E.U and see how they are faring 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

We are talking about the effects of Brexit and the UK leaving the E.U and to make a fair assessment you would have to compare he UKs economy to other Countries who are still in the E.U and see how they are faring 

It makes no sense to compare underdeveloped economies, or developing economies, to fully developed ones. They are far too different. How do you propose to isolate those factors from EU membership?

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It makes no sense to compare underdeveloped economies, or developing economies, to fully developed ones. They are far too different. How do you propose to isolate those factors from EU membership?

bad link

 

[candide]

33 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Nice to hear that if the U.K had remained in the E.U , we wouldn't have been effected by Covid or the Ukrainian  war or the general worldwide recession  ????

Do you understand "relative" performance?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, candide said:

Do you understand "relative" performance?

Not in this instance , No

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Forget about about minimum  wage :

Carl from Carshalton the Hod carrier earns 20 Pound an hour on a building site in Cricklewood 

Piotr comes over from Poland and carries the hod for 15 Pound an hour in Paddington  =     Cheap labour 

CheapER labour. Isn't this how market economies are meant to function? New entrants to the market and all that.

 

Isn't this also a variation of the protectionist argument that Brexiters are keen to level against the EU?

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

CheapER labour. Isn't this how market economies are meant to function? New entrants to the market and all that.

 

Isn't this also a variation of the protectionist argument that Brexiters are keen to level against the EU?

Carl from Carshalton working as a Hod carrier in Cricklewood is concerned about his wage packet at the end of the week , market economies wouldn't come into his decision as to whether to vote Leave or Remain