Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[Mac Mickmanus]

44 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Again, another ridiculous and defeatist comment. It is like my young kids who - when I pull them up for something they have done - reply, "we shouldn't talk about the past".  Er....yes we should because you did something wrong in the past and we should talk about it and you should be accountable for it.

Or you are saying we should be able to s**t on our own front lawn (and all our neighbours' lawns) but then just make the best of the situation and not discuss it or hold anyone accountable? Even though we were told that s**tting on our lawn would be bringing back the glory days but that turned out to be a lie.  Because, you know, life is about moving on....

I have to say RayC has very patiently and eloquently responded to everyone in this thread with good logic and good grace. The only replies I have read from Brexiteers is "stop going on about it" or cliches like "faceless EU bureaucrats", "EU mafia" or other ridiculous terms like "free of their yoke" without giving a single example of why they are a mafia, what yoke they had, or why their civil servants are any different to our own (and the UK has about 10-12 times as many as the EU even though we have a fraction of the population).

We don't think that Brexit was wrong or a mistake and we are still quite happy with the outcome and I am more than happy to be held accountable .

   Some people still go on like its still 2017 .

My message it to accept the result and move on and live with it , rather than keep going on about the Brexit process , because that wont change anything

[Mac Mickmanus]

52 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Again, another ridiculous and defeatist comment. It is like my young kids who - when I pull them up for something they have done - reply, "we shouldn't talk about the past".  Er....yes we should because you did something wrong in the past and we should talk about it and you should be accountable for it.
 

If your kids did that wrong thing seven years ago and you are still going on about something they did 7 yaers ago, they will have a valid point in telling you to stop going on about it 

[kwilco]

 

If anyone is in any doubt about the lies of Brexit take a;\ look at this article which outlines the lies from Boris to Sunak.

 

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

 

The only way to justify Brexit is to claim black is white and pigs can fly.

 

We've gone form "sunlit uplands - to a disaster we will "get by - in.

 

Dunkirk was a disaster we got by on, but Brexit is with us for years unless we see sense and start to rejoin ASAP - Sunak has already has Switzerland's agreement waved in his face.

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

If anyone is in any doubt about the lies of Brexit take a;\ look at this article which outlines the lies from Boris to Sunak.

 

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

 

The only way to justify Brexit is to claim black is white and pigs can fly.

 

We've gone form "sunlit uplands - to a disaster we will "get by - in.

 

Dunkirk was a disaster we got by on, but Brexit is with us for years unless we see sense and start to rejoin ASAP - Sunak has already has Switzerland's agreement waved in his face.

Your off topic list has nothing to do with Brexit.  

[Mac Mickmanus]

31 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

If anyone is in any doubt about the lies of Brexit take a;\ look at this article which outlines the lies from Boris to Sunak.

 

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

 

The only way to justify Brexit is to claim black is white and pigs can fly.

 

We've gone form "sunlit uplands - to a disaster we will "get by - in.

 

Dunkirk was a disaster we got by on, but Brexit is with us for years unless we see sense and start to rejoin ASAP - Sunak has already has Switzerland's agreement waved in his face.

Just to reply to the first alleged lie about there being 40 new hospitals . 

   They did mean that 40 new hospitals which included complete refurbishments of old hospitals and new wings built onto  existing hospitals and they didn't mean 40 new hospitals built from scratch .

    That one was enough for me and I wont be going down the list explaining things to you and pointing out why they aren't lies

[superal]

15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The UK always had access to the rest of the world while a member of the EU.

 

 

Oh no it didn't ( Panto season ???? ) 

The European Union manages its trade and investment relations with non-EU countries through its trade and investment policy.

Trade outside the EU is an exclusive responsibility of the EU, rather than the national governments of member countries. This means the EU institutions make laws on trade matters, and negotiate and conclude international trade agreements.

[RayC]

9 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They were NOT promises though .

They were predictions about how future trade deals would progress and common sense tells us that predictions are not promises 

Right. So we should expect nothing positive to come out of Brexit? In that case, why not admit that Brexit was a mistake and start the process to reverse its' negative effects?

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, superal said:

Oh no it didn't ( Panto season ???? ) 

The European Union manages its trade and investment relations with non-EU countries through its trade and investment policy.

Trade outside the EU is an exclusive responsibility of the EU, rather than the national governments of member countries. This means the EU institutions make laws on trade matters, and negotiate and conclude international trade agreements.

Odd then that so many British businesses have been trading, and operating around the world while the UK was a member of the EU.

 

 

[RayC]

24 minutes ago, superal said:

Oh no it didn't ( Panto season ???? ) 

The European Union manages its trade and investment relations with non-EU countries through its trade and investment policy.

Trade outside the EU is an exclusive responsibility of the EU, rather than the national governments of member countries. This means the EU institutions make laws on trade matters, and negotiate and conclude international trade agreements.

Oh yes, it did!

 

You are correct, but then so too is Chomper. The UK had access to non-EU markets via the EU.

 

Imo, due to the respective market sizes, third country nations will prioritize trade negotiations and prize trade deals with the EU over the UK. Any resulting deals will also, most likely, be more favourable for the EU.

[Bluespunk]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

We don't think that Brexit was wrong or a mistake and we are still quite happy with the outcome and I am more than happy to be held accountable .

   Some people still go on like its still 2017 .

My message it to accept the result and move on and live with it , rather than keep going on about the Brexit process , because that wont change anything

We?

 

You do not speak for everyone in the U.K.  

 

No one is talking about the result as such (except you, that is) but rather the disastrous effect brexit is having on the U.K. economy. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bluespunk
Comma added

[RayC]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If your kids did that wrong thing seven years ago and you are still going on about something they did 7 yaers ago, they will have a valid point in telling you to stop going on about it 

Joseph's parenting skills are obviously off-topic and his own affair but, to continue the analogy, if his kids still refuse to admit that they made a mistake - and continue to make that mistake - imo it would be perfectly good parenting to continue pointing this out to them irrespective of how long has passed.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, RayC said:

Oh yes, it did!

 

You are correct, but then so too is Chomper. The UK had access to non-EU markets via the EU.

 

Imo, due to the respective market sizes, third country nations will prioritize trade negotiations and prize trade deals with the EU over the UK. Any resulting deals will also, most likely, be more favourable for the EU.

Added to which there was nothing at all stopping the UK trading with any nation that the EU did not have a trade agreement with.

 

The US being an example, there are very many more.

 

Membership of the EU did not prevent the UK from trading with the rest of the world.

[RayC]

10 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They were NOT promises though .

They were predictions about how future trade deals would progress and common sense tells us that predictions are not promises 

So, for whatever reason, these predictions have not turned out to be correct.

 

Therefore, wouldn't it be prudent to reappraise the situation and act accordingly, rather than plough aimlessly on as we appear to be doing?

[RayC]

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

We don't think that Brexit was wrong or a mistake and we are still quite happy with the outcome and I am more than happy to be held accountable .

   Some people still go on like its still 2017 .

My message it to accept the result and move on and live with it , rather than keep going on about the Brexit process , because that wont change anything

On the one hand, you tacitly admit (in another post) that the Brexit camp's predictions (of benefits) have not happened but, here you restate that Brexit wasn't a mistake and that you are still quite happy with the outcome. 

 

It's not impossible to reconcile those two positions but imo they undermine each other.

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Always somebody else’s fault, always somebody else’s bill.

 

Except it’s not.

You can now see not everyone thinks in the way you do. 

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

 

If anyone is in any doubt about the lies of Brexit take a;\ look at this article which outlines the lies from Boris to Sunak.

 

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

 

The only way to justify Brexit is to claim black is white and pigs can fly.

 

We've gone form "sunlit uplands - to a disaster we will "get by - in.

 

Dunkirk was a disaster we got by on, but Brexit is with us for years unless we see sense and start to rejoin ASAP - Sunak has already has Switzerland's agreement waved in his face.

Well i admit i deliberatly lie sometimes aleast progress is happening then, so what's there to moan about. 

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, RayC said:

Given that it appeared that it was common knowledge that the EU would act in such a vindictive manner, why have successive UK governments failed to make the necessary arrangements to mitigate against these negative effects?

Because they are not doing what I would do. 

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, RayC said:

Perhaps the Thai based Brexiters should return to the UK to help  build this 'New Jerusalem'.

My family is happy to do that. 

 

Rubber dinghies are a bargain these days. 

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

I was listing the EU as one of three. The EU is not a country. So I needed to find a word that would accurately encompass them all.

 

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

Why? They're different. That's cheating.

Nonsense. For the purposes of trade and commerce they are the same. The reason that European states created the EU was to be able to emulate the United States where trade and commerce were unaffected by internal borders. What they were after, as far as trade and commerce go, was a United States of Europe. So the EU absulotely does belong with the USA and China when referring to trade and commerce. If the issue was fiscal policy or social benefits, that would be a different matter.

[Jim1000]

What happened to the   " first "  brilliant  UK trade deal with the Philippines  all those years ago  ?
Perhaps Duterte was too busy with other things  to sign off ! 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

Nonsense. For the purposes of trade and commerce they are the same. The reason that European states created the EU was to be able to emulate the United States where trade and commerce were unaffected by internal borders. What they were after, as far as trade and commerce go, was a United States of Europe. So the EU absulotely does belong with the USA and China when referring to trade and commerce. If the issue was fiscal policy or social benefits, that would be a different matter.

No it wasn't and no it doesn't. 

[placeholder]

14 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Australia seen rather pleased with a trade deal with the UK and India 

 

22 November 2022

 

Trade deals with India and the UK have passed Parliament

 

 

Australian exporters, businesses, workers and consumers will soon be able to reap the opportunities and benefits of more open trade with India and the United Kingdom with today’s passage of implementing legislation through the Parliament. 

 

The Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement (A-UKFTA) is the first full trade agreement the UK negotiated from scratch following Brexit. The A-UKFTA will deepen our already strong economic relationship with the UK and offer greater opportunities for our businesses to diversify their trade markets.

 

 

https://www.trademinister.gov.au/minister/don-farrell/media-release/trade-deals-india-and-uk-have-passed-parliament

That's a rather misleading headline. The UK has no trade deal with India.  As for Australia...

 

Australia free trade deal a failure for UK, says George Eustice

Mr Eustice told the Commons that now he is on the backbenches he "no longer has to put such a positive gloss on what was agreed".

Overall the UK "gave away far too much for far too little in return", he told MPs.

This includes giving Australia or New Zealand full access to the UK market to sell beef and sheep, while Australia still bans the import of British beef, he added.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63627801

 

And even if this were not the case, economists know that there is a universally occurring characteristic of trade which they call "gravity". The closer countries are geographically the more likely that they are to trade with each other. You can't get much farther from the UK than Australia.

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And even if this were not the case, economists know that there is a universally occurring characteristic of trade which they call "gravity". The closer countries are geographically the more likely that they are to trade with each other. You can't get much farther from the UK than Australia.

And yet I can remember when all our UK beef came from Argentina, all our lamb came form New Zealand, bananas were from the West Indies and oranges from South Africa.

So I'm calling BS on this 'gravity'.

Edited December 11, 2022 by BritManToo

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No it wasn't and no it doesn't. 

More nonsense. All you can do is provide empty negation. So, in terms of economics,  how would you characterize the effects of the elimination of tariffs between members and  the institution of the free movement of labor? You know, economic integration How doesn't that emulate a unified economy comparable to the United States or China?

[placeholder]

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just to reply to the first alleged lie about there being 40 new hospitals . 

   They did mean that 40 new hospitals which included complete refurbishments of old hospitals and new wings built onto  existing hospitals and they didn't mean 40 new hospitals built from scratch .

    That one was enough for me and I wont be going down the list explaining things to you and pointing out why they aren't lies

You mean when I build an addition to my house, I get to call it new? Or if I completely refurbish it, it's now a new house? Calling something "new" that isn't new is what rational people would call lying or fraud. The new "new" is a no-no.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

 

Nonsense. For the purposes of trade and commerce they are the same. The reason that European states created the EU was to be able to emulate the United States where trade and commerce were unaffected by internal borders. What they were after, as far as trade and commerce go, was a United States of Europe. So the EU absulotely does belong with the USA and China when referring to trade and commerce. If the issue was fiscal policy or social benefits, that would be a different matter.

Trade is about markets. The EU is one market, therefore in this respect comparable to the US and China.

[Bluespunk]

42 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

And yet I can remember when all our UK beef came from Argentina, all our lamb came form New Zealand, bananas were from the West Indies and oranges from South Africa.

So I'm calling BS on this 'gravity'.

That trade network was failing by the time the UK joined the EU. Without imperial preference the trade conditions no longer favoured the uk...

[josephbloggs]

8 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just to reply to the first alleged lie about there being 40 new hospitals . 

   They did mean that 40 new hospitals which included complete refurbishments of old hospitals and new wings built onto  existing hospitals and they didn't mean 40 new hospitals built from scratch .

    That one was enough for me and I wont be going down the list explaining things to you and pointing out why they aren't lies

So semantics is your main argument - brilliant. And you can therefore dismiss everything else very conveniently.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

That's a rather misleading headline. The UK has no trade deal with India.  As for Australia...

 

 

LOL, the headline didnt even say that the UK has a trade deal with India !!!!!!!!!!

[stevenl]

18 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

LOL, the headline didnt even say that the UK has a trade deal with India !!!!!!!!!!

So you're quoting an Australian paper saying how happy Australia is with the trade deal with the UK and India to prove that the UK is doing well on trade deals.

Do you really think your reasoning makes sense?