Friend (US Citizen) in ICU, no savings or insurance - don't know what to do for the best

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/6/2023 at 5:17 PM, Sheryl said:

 

I fail to see any reason for these statements based on the medical information so far available.

 

All we know is that following treatment for TB, he developed pneumonia. Which is a treatable condition.  At last report his condition had improved/stabilized.

 

While it is possible complications will set in that change the prognosis we have no such information.

 

In any event the subject is not what medical decisions to make but how to deal with the fact that OP is unable to pay for his medical care.

 

 

Occasionally posters ask what happens if the patient can't pay and has no one to send the bill to, but never yet seen a definitive answer.

 

I hope the OP hasn't signed anything that would make him legally responsible for his friend's expenses.

[save the frogs]

sounds to me like people are advocating euthanasia to solve the problem of inability to pay medical bills. 

despite the fact that the illness is treatable.

 

it can be debated whether it's ethical or not i suppose.

 

i wouldnt want to be in any position to make that sort of decision.

 

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

sounds to me like people are advocating euthanasia to solve the problem of inability to pay medical bills. 

despite the fact that the illness is treatable.

 

it can be debated whether it's ethical or not i suppose.

 

i wouldnt want to be in any position to make that sort of decision.

 

If you get diagnosed with Parkinsons, dementia etc you need to decide whether you want to suffer with it, personal choice i think, before too late

[save the frogs]

14 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

If you get diagnosed with Parkinsons, dementia etc you need to decide whether you want to suffer with it, personal choice i think, before too late

there is no euthanasia in thailand, is there?

also, this case is about financial problems. the health issue is treatable. 

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, save the frogs said:

there is no euthanasia in thailand, is there?

also, this case is about financial problems. the health issue is treatable. 

Just because there's no official euthanasia doesn't mean it can't be done, maybe in this case you can lend them some money? you know to help out. I was talking about other awful illnesses 

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

If you get diagnosed with Parkinsons, dementia etc you need to decide whether you want to suffer with it, personal choice i think, before too late

But these are not what person in this thread has.

 

Posters have indeed advocated euthanasia for someone with treatable disease who can't pay the bill. Which is IMO outrageous/absurd.

[Sheryl]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Occasionally posters ask what happens if the patient can't pay and has no one to send the bill to, but never yet seen a definitive answer.

 

I hope the OP hasn't signed anything that would make him legally responsible for his friend's expenses.

 

What happens is:

 

The hospital will make aggressive efforts to get paid including things like refusing to let the patient leave (or, if dead, refuse to release the body). 

 

Hospital will arrange a payment plan if patient/family agree. This is a legally binding contract.

 

Legsl action can and will be taken agsinst patient/family gor unpaid bslances. I have known case ehere expat had to flee Thailand for this readon.

 

Hospital may also mimimize treatment given/withold surgeries and the like if they know payment may not be made. 

[scubascuba3]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

But these are not what person in this thread has.

 

Posters have indeed advocated euthanasia for someone with treatable disease who can't pay the bill. Which is IMO outrageous/absurd.

so if they can't pay the bill they have a miserable death? the hospital won't keep treating them for free

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

so if they can't pay the bill they have a miserable death? the hospital won't keep treating them for free

Out of all the dead people I've known/encountered, 80% were miserable deaths.

I'm thinking miserable death is normal.

The 2 'good' deaths were NancyL and Dave2 from this forum (went to bed, didn't wake up).

Edited January 8, 2023 by BritManToo

[Lorry]

13 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Legsl action can and will be taken agsinst patient/family gor unpaid bslances. I have known case ehere expat had to flee Thailand for this readon.

 

I might add: hospital will not sue abroad (too expensive to sue someone abroad).

That's why fleeing Thailand helps.

 

Minimizing treatment, eg withholding surgery,  is the way to go for the hospital, as Sheryl said.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/8/2023 at 11:46 AM, save the frogs said:

there is no euthanasia in thailand, is there?

also, this case is about financial problems. the health issue is treatable. 

Given that he apparently has no money to pay for this time, even if he survives this event, what about the next event etc.

At what time do people accept reality?

 

Most western countries don't have voluntary euthanasia. Which means that anyone not wanting to hang around to the bitter end hooked up to a machine has to DIY, It's time for that thinking to end and euthanasia left up to the individual to choose. It is our life, isn't it?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/8/2023 at 5:50 PM, Sheryl said:

Posters have indeed advocated euthanasia for someone with treatable disease who can't pay the bill. Which is IMO outrageous/absurd.

While this is somewhat off topic, I don't want anything for the patient in the OP that I wouldn't want for myself in such a situation.

I have a DNR order and if any Dr keeps me alive I'll haunt him after I do get to pass over to a better place.

 

IMO any that don't make any provision for just such an event are in effect saying that they want to be untreated, unless they go around all their friends and family and ask them to cover the bill. It's not fair on friends and family to do nothing and then expect them to pay when it all goes wrong.

[Dart12]

@jimmiejackson  does he have any community with good affiliation back home in USA?  church? school? clubs?
or even a large contact list of friends and family?

[save the frogs]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that he apparently has no money to pay for this time, even if he survives this event, what about the next event etc.

At what time do people accept reality?

he may get his finances / health insurance in order before the next event.

 

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

he may get his finances / health insurance in order before the next event.

From what the OP said initially that shouldn't be too far away if the hospital refuses to treat him.. 

 

Quote

If we take him home, he will certainly die in a horrific way (essentially drowning in sputum)

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by IvorBiggun2

[FritsSikkink]

On 1/2/2023 at 10:59 PM, it is what it is said:

 

this is not a thai problem as such, tourists/foreigners  get sick, have accidents, need medical assistance in every country in the world. i've visited 50+ countries and non has had a mandatory insurance requirement.

 

a countries economy benefits greatly from tourism, governments need to allocate what would be an extremely small percentage of this to pay for such situations.

 

this is in no way to condone not having relevant insurance or self insuring which would in most cases provide excellent care should the worst happen

Why should my tax money go to you because you don't want to insure.

[jimmiejackson]

Thank you to all for their responses and Sheryl for her valuable information and keeping this thread on topic.

 

I'm sorry I haven't updated earlier, as you can imagine it's been a challenging time.

 

I wanted to give an update as someone in the future may get some benefit from it.

 

There was never any clear answers provided by Camilian as to what would happen if the bills weren't paid.

 

In the background a lot of work was being done with everyone pulling in any contact or favour they had to get him transferred to a Government hospital, the two top choices being Chula and the Chest Institute.

 

Eventually, somehow, he got put as first on the list for an ICU bed at the Chest Institute, where he had already been receiving outpatient treatment and was recommended by many, including the Specialist I took him to see at one of the high end hospitals a couple of years ago, as the best place for him to be.

 

The call came through "he can transfer here now but it has to be now or never" from the Chest Institute.

 

Unfortunately I was unable to attend Camilian at the time due to work so his Thai friend dealt with Camilian for a bill that at that point had over 200,000 Baht outstanding.

 

She was able to negotiate them down to pay 150,000 there and then and the rest in monthly instalments. This was something we were explicitly told by them that they would never consider, however in the end I guess they knew it was that or nothing.

 

He is now in the Chest Institute which is running in the region of 10-15,000 Baht per day, as opposed to the 30-40,000 Baht a day at Camilian.

 

He has been knocked out on either Fentanyl or Morphine the whole time, the first time he was "awake" was yesterday however as he is still dosed up and on a ventilator he could do nothing much but nod or shake his head in between falling back to sleep. But it's progress.

 

No clear answers yet on how the Pneumonia treatment is going although it does seem that the standard of care there is very good.

 

So now we start the whole thing again I guess.

 

There is some money that's come through from friends etc but it won't last long. I don't know what happens if we can't pay the bill at the new hospital.

 

So we pray for his recovery and will deal with it day by day as we have been.

[The Fugitive]

17 minutes ago, jimmiejackson said:

Thank you to all for their responses and Sheryl for her valuable information and keeping this thread on topic.

 

I'm sorry I haven't updated earlier, as you can imagine it's been a challenging time.

 

I wanted to give an update as someone in the future may get some benefit from it.

 

There was never any clear answers provided by Camilian as to what would happen if the bills weren't paid.

 

In the background a lot of work was being done with everyone pulling in any contact or favour they had to get him transferred to a Government hospital, the two top choices being Chula and the Chest Institute.

 

Eventually, somehow, he got put as first on the list for an ICU bed at the Chest Institute, where he had already been receiving outpatient treatment and was recommended by many, including the Specialist I took him to see at one of the high end hospitals a couple of years ago, as the best place for him to be.

 

The call came through "he can transfer here now but it has to be now or never" from the Chest Institute.

 

Unfortunately I was unable to attend Camilian at the time due to work so his Thai friend dealt with Camilian for a bill that at that point had over 200,000 Baht outstanding.

 

She was able to negotiate them down to pay 150,000 there and then and the rest in monthly instalments. This was something we were explicitly told by them that they would never consider, however in the end I guess they knew it was that or nothing.

 

He is now in the Chest Institute which is running in the region of 10-15,000 Baht per day, as opposed to the 30-40,000 Baht a day at Camilian.

 

He has been knocked out on either Fentanyl or Morphine the whole time, the first time he was "awake" was yesterday however as he is still dosed up and on a ventilator he could do nothing much but nod or shake his head in between falling back to sleep. But it's progress.

 

No clear answers yet on how the Pneumonia treatment is going although it does seem that the standard of care there is very good.

 

So now we start the whole thing again I guess.

 

There is some money that's come through from friends etc but it won't last long. I don't know what happens if we can't pay the bill at the new hospital.

 

So we pray for his recovery and will deal with it day by day as we have been.

Many thanks for the update. Shows what can be done with initiative and hard work. I hope your friend improves quickly. Sounds as if he's in good hands. 

[DrJoy]

On 1/8/2023 at 11:55 AM, Sheryl said:

Legsl action can and will be taken agsinst patient/family

As per the OP, the patient does not have a family, so who will they take to court for legal action?

[Woof999]

40 minutes ago, jimmiejackson said:

Thank you to all for their responses and Sheryl for her valuable information and keeping this thread on topic.

 

I'm sorry I haven't updated earlier, as you can imagine it's been a challenging time.

 

I wanted to give an update as someone in the future may get some benefit from it.

 

There was never any clear answers provided by Camilian as to what would happen if the bills weren't paid.

 

In the background a lot of work was being done with everyone pulling in any contact or favour they had to get him transferred to a Government hospital, the two top choices being Chula and the Chest Institute.

 

Eventually, somehow, he got put as first on the list for an ICU bed at the Chest Institute, where he had already been receiving outpatient treatment and was recommended by many, including the Specialist I took him to see at one of the high end hospitals a couple of years ago, as the best place for him to be.

 

The call came through "he can transfer here now but it has to be now or never" from the Chest Institute.

 

Unfortunately I was unable to attend Camilian at the time due to work so his Thai friend dealt with Camilian for a bill that at that point had over 200,000 Baht outstanding.

 

She was able to negotiate them down to pay 150,000 there and then and the rest in monthly instalments. This was something we were explicitly told by them that they would never consider, however in the end I guess they knew it was that or nothing.

 

He is now in the Chest Institute which is running in the region of 10-15,000 Baht per day, as opposed to the 30-40,000 Baht a day at Camilian.

 

He has been knocked out on either Fentanyl or Morphine the whole time, the first time he was "awake" was yesterday however as he is still dosed up and on a ventilator he could do nothing much but nod or shake his head in between falling back to sleep. But it's progress.

 

No clear answers yet on how the Pneumonia treatment is going although it does seem that the standard of care there is very good.

 

So now we start the whole thing again I guess.

 

There is some money that's come through from friends etc but it won't last long. I don't know what happens if we can't pay the bill at the new hospital.

 

So we pray for his recovery and will deal with it day by day as we have been.

I hope that somewhere out there I have a mate like you.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, DrJoy said:

As per the OP, the patient does not have a family, so who will they take to court for legal action?

Patient if/when discharged.

 

But they will not pursue it overseas.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, jimmiejackson said:

Thank you to all for their responses and Sheryl for her valuable information and keeping this thread on topic.

 

I'm sorry I haven't updated earlier, as you can imagine it's been a challenging time.

 

I wanted to give an update as someone in the future may get some benefit from it.

 

There was never any clear answers provided by Camilian as to what would happen if the bills weren't paid.

 

In the background a lot of work was being done with everyone pulling in any contact or favour they had to get him transferred to a Government hospital, the two top choices being Chula and the Chest Institute.

 

Eventually, somehow, he got put as first on the list for an ICU bed at the Chest Institute, where he had already been receiving outpatient treatment and was recommended by many, including the Specialist I took him to see at one of the high end hospitals a couple of years ago, as the best place for him to be.

 

The call came through "he can transfer here now but it has to be now or never" from the Chest Institute.

 

Unfortunately I was unable to attend Camilian at the time due to work so his Thai friend dealt with Camilian for a bill that at that point had over 200,000 Baht outstanding.

 

She was able to negotiate them down to pay 150,000 there and then and the rest in monthly instalments. This was something we were explicitly told by them that they would never consider, however in the end I guess they knew it was that or nothing.

 

He is now in the Chest Institute which is running in the region of 10-15,000 Baht per day, as opposed to the 30-40,000 Baht a day at Camilian.

 

He has been knocked out on either Fentanyl or Morphine the whole time, the first time he was "awake" was yesterday however as he is still dosed up and on a ventilator he could do nothing much but nod or shake his head in between falling back to sleep. But it's progress.

 

No clear answers yet on how the Pneumonia treatment is going although it does seem that the standard of care there is very good.

 

So now we start the whole thing again I guess.

 

There is some money that's come through from friends etc but it won't last long. I don't know what happens if we can't pay the bill at the new hospital.

 

So we pray for his recovery and will deal with it day by day as we have been.

 

Thank you for the update, and congratulations on progress made.

 

All hospitals will settle for an installment  payment contract if convinced there is no possibility of getting paid in full otherwise. They do not like to do it that way, but they will if they have to.

 

Lucky it was Camellian and not some place like Bumrungrad as costs there would have been at least double.

 

You and his other friends/relatives might like to consider a "Go Fund me" page.

 

Also, as by my count it is nearing 2 weeks now on a ventilator, you should start asking  doctors about  long term prognosis.

[orchis]

2 hours ago, DrJoy said:

As per the OP, the patient does not have a family, so who will they take to court for legal action?

A guy in my building could not pay his emergency appendectomy (Bangkok Christian H.) 
So upon release the hospital sent an "officer" (employee) home with him to confiscate his passport.
He had to pay before getting it back.
I am sure of this because I was in the same taxi with them, he had called me under the pretext of "helping him check out" but arriving at the hospital he then expected me to clear his bill which I couldn't nor wouldn't.

Edited January 13, 2023 by orchis

[IvorBiggun2]

42 minutes ago, orchis said:

So upon release the hospital sent an "officer" (employee) home with him to confiscate his passport.

I'm surprised they sent an officer home with him as they usually escort you to an ATM machine before leaving hospital. That's my experience. So I call BS on the above.

Edited January 13, 2023 by IvorBiggun2

[orchis]

48 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

I'm surprised

Be surprised as much as you chose to, I relate a factual event without opinion or judgement; he had stated he had no money.

Edited January 13, 2023 by orchis

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, orchis said:

So upon release the hospital sent an "officer" (employee) home with him to confiscate his passport.

You cannot confiscate someone's passport.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

You cannot confiscate someone's passport.

Private hospitals do if often. 

 

Also refuse to return clothes and valuables or let pstient leave if bill not paid.

[IvorBiggun2]

10 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Private hospitals do if often. 

 

Also refuse to return clothes and valuables or let pstient leave if bill not paid.

That is illegal. A Passports remain the property of the government that issues it. Refusing to return patients clothing is a totally different ballgame.

[The Fugitive]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

That is illegal. A Passports remain the property of the government that issues it. Refusing to return patients clothing is a totally different ballgame.

That is true. However, the patient is now a debtor in a foreign Country. Not in the best position to insist upon his rights.

[Scott]

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