China’s new foreign minister warns of certain US-Chinese war if Washington fails to reverse course

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, cncltd1973 said:

the progress China has made recently was from infiltrating and copying, I'm thinking specifically of the wave of Chinese enrollment in Harvard that was part of their gov't program to infiltrate, learn and implement back in China. that happened 10+ years ago, and the reverse engineering and copying that they are actively doing now. do you think they made all this progress in house, in their own universities? Harvard specifically changed criteria because the Chinese were enrolling enmass. their scores for rote memory were better than westerners but they were lacking in EQ and problem solving. whatever they learned in our universities is serving them well now, they are quickly making up for lost time

Once again, for short term economic gain, the west shot itself in the foot in the long term.

[sscc]

On 3/15/2023 at 12:31 PM, placeholder said:

Actually, probably not. Under Xi the CCP has been doing its best to strangle market based economy in China. It has increasingly favored state industries which typically run deficits. The govt has imposed taxes on the free market sector of the economy to subsidize those deficits. It has a huge youth unemployment problem thanks to misallocation of resources.  And the danger of this centralized control was typified in China's response to Covid. It's inflexibility ended up turning China's covid response from a triumph into a disaster. And typical of a totalitarian government,  even though it sharply reversed course, it still claimed infallibility. As Xi increases CCP control over the economy, the outlook doesn't look so great for China.

OK  totalitarian government China.  

How many totalitarian government globally in the past 200 years ?  Say dozens of them.  And why China could have risen in a totalitarian format with communism doctrine ? 

 

Cut off all the long and boring bureaucratic talk,  Beijing CCP governance  might be briefly summarized as these :  ( called socialism with Chinese characteristics ) 

//  Single party,  totalitarian government.

//  Capability of self mistake-correction    

//  Capability of self reform,   economically and politically 

//  Prime Objectives are to make the public and All citizens have better life, common prosperity .,,,,,,,..blah blah blah.

 

China GDP growth 

2020   2.1 % 

2021    8.1 % 

2022   3.0 % 

 

CCP Government projects 5.0 % growth target for 2023 ,  while several USA Investment Banks predicted 5-6 % growth,  so is IMF. 

 

You don't believe the growth there ?   Then Ask the Bankers. 

I don't know as much 

 

 

 

[sscc]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:41 AM, candide said:

To be free of control and influence is not really achievable for many countries which are not powerful enough. Then the issue is which is the "least bad" influence. What is worse, to be under U.S. influence, or to be under Chinese influence?

I am surprised of all the movement that had happened rapidly. 

 

//     Out of 53/54 countries in Africa that had gone through Western colonial experience for centuries,  about 50 of them insist siding with the East camp rather than the West.  

//    Two largest countries in South American --  Brazil and Argentina side with China rather than USA.  China is very far geographically and is not associated with Latin in culture at all. 

 

//    Middle East is turning around with news coming out weekly.   USA would prefer nothing had happened.  

//    India had admired UK for many decades,  not any more. Now Indians talk tough. 

//   SouthEast Asians had been pro-Europe for centuries,  now claim to be neutral. 

 

Yes,  USA still has stronghold in Japan and South Korea.   But even Israel is watching the change close and may lose up eventually  ( another unthinkable for USA ) .   

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, sscc said:

OK  totalitarian government China.  

How many totalitarian government globally in the past 200 years ?  Say dozens of them.  And why China could have risen in a totalitarian format with communism doctrine ? 

 

Cut off all the long and boring bureaucratic talk,  Beijing CCP governance  might be briefly summarized as these :  ( called socialism with Chinese characteristics ) 

//  Single party,  totalitarian government.

//  Capability of self mistake-correction    

//  Capability of self reform,   economically and politically 

//  Prime Objectives are to make the public and All citizens have better life, common prosperity .,,,,,,,..blah blah blah.

 

China GDP growth 

2020   2.1 % 

2021    8.1 % 

2022   3.0 % 

 

CCP Government projects 5.0 % growth target for 2023 ,  while several USA Investment Banks predicted 5-6 % growth,  so is IMF. 

 

You don't believe the growth there ?   Then Ask the Bankers. 

I don't know as much 

China is still benefiting from the time before Xi began putting a stranglehold on the private sector. Before Xi, there was a certain collegiality among the top officials. No more. It's now one man rule. This hasn't been the case since the Mao era. We know how that ended.

[candide]

11 minutes ago, sscc said:

I am surprised of all the movement that had happened rapidly. 

 

//     Out of 53/54 countries in Africa that had gone through Western colonial experience for centuries,  about 50 of them insist siding with the East camp rather than the West.  

//    Two largest countries in South American --  Brazil and Argentina side with China rather than USA.  China is very far geographically and is not associated with Latin in culture at all. 

 

//    Middle East is turning around with news coming out weekly.   USA would prefer nothing had happened.  

//    India had admired UK for many decades,  not any more. Now Indians talk tough. 

//   SouthEast Asians had been pro-Europe for centuries,  now claim to be neutral. 

 

Yes,  USA still has stronghold in Japan and South Korea.   But even Israel is watching the change close and may lose up eventually  ( another unthinkable for USA ) .   

The Chinese have been very smart in articulating their influence policy. For example, the belt and road is a brilliant marketing and communication initiative.

The U.S., and also European countries are lacking such a coherent and highly visible policy (while they probably spend more than the Chinese.

Anyway, they are also starting that it's not all nice with the Chinese. For example, read:

https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/areas-in-africa-with-more-chinese-backed-projects-were-more-likely-to-experience-protests

[sscc]

29 minutes ago, placeholder said:

China is still benefiting from the time before Xi began putting a stranglehold on the private sector. Before Xi, there was a certain collegiality among the top officials. No more. It's now one man rule. This hasn't been the case since the Mao era. We know how that ended.

Western world including Western media and the scholars had predicted CCP collapse,   correctly in the timing,  NOT the result.  This was the period 2011-13.   In 2011/12 all predicted CCP and China crumbled within 18-24 months.   Indeed 2011-13 was the most dangerous period for China,  as corruption was beyond control while the economy was soaring.  Xi came in then and immediately fought corruption in his first 5-7 of tenure 

 

While CCP set and plan their objectives and implement accordingly,   incidental procedures found essential are to restrict  UNlimited greed, indulgence, and desire and keep these behaviors in tight control  ( actually Singapore Government doing some as well ) .

 

Chinese are travelling in and out and seeing a lot of the world nowadays,  they can observe and compare.   

In essence,  the Chinese public support of Xi and CCP with over 90 % rating  and PRC citizens are  also top in a Global Happiness Survey recently published by A famed Paris-based IPSOS survey agent.  

 

One big, big factor resulting in this trend is Nosediving of all aspects of USA in particular and the West in general in past 6-7 years.   As  one side is in free fall,  it will reflect. 

 

  

[placeholder]

Just now, sscc said:

Western world including Western media and the scholars had predicted CCP collapse,   correctly in the timing,  NOT the result.  This was the period 2011-13.   In 2011/12 all predicted CCP and China crumbled within 18-24 months.   Indeed 2011-13 was the most dangerous period for China,  as corruption was beyond control while the economy was soaring.  Xi came in then and immediately fought corruption in his first 5-7 of tenure 

 

While CCP set and plan their objectives and implement accordingly,   incidental procedures found essential are to restrict  UNlimited greed, indulgence, and desire and keep these behaviors in tight control  ( actually Singapore Government doing some as well ) .

 

Chinese are travelling in and out and seeing a lot of the world nowadays,  they can observe and compare.   

In essence,  the Chinese public support of Xi and CCP with over 90 % rating  and PRC citizens are  also top in a Global Happiness Survey recently published by A famed Paris-based IPSOS survey agent.  

 

One big, big factor resulting in this trend is Nosediving of all aspects of USA in particular and the West in general in past 6-7 years.   As  one side is in free fall,  it will reflect. 

 

  

The Western world was predicting China's collapse? Really? Did foreign investment in China collapse in that year?

There's a rule on the landing page of this forum which you should acquaint yourself with.

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

So share a link with us to prove your claim. 

 

[sscc]

45 minutes ago, candide said:

The Chinese have been very smart in articulating their influence policy. For example, the belt and road is a brilliant marketing and communication initiative.

The U.S., and also European countries are lacking such a coherent and highly visible policy (while they probably spend more than the Chinese.

Anyway, they are also starting that it's not all nice with the Chinese. For example, read:

https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/areas-in-africa-with-more-chinese-backed-projects-were-more-likely-to-experience-protests

 

One-Belt-One-Road is a very, very high risk. grand scheme undertaking for China. 

" Locals always have the edge and upper-hand "  is barely common sense. 

Fortunately for China,   the mega project had not gone badly so far and over 130 countries had signed on. . 

 

Mentally of Chinese is actually very similar to other Asians nearby. 

" Achieve Monetary enrichment while taking fuss-free and low profile approach. " 

 

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, sscc said:

 

One-Belt-One-Road is a very, very high risk. grand scheme undertaking for China. 

" Locals always have the edge and upper-hand "  is barely common sense. 

Fortunately for China,   the mega project had not gone badly so far and over 130 countries had signed on. . 

 

Mentally of Chinese is actually very similar to other Asians nearby. 

" Achieve Monetary enrichment while taking fuss-free and low profile approach. " 

Study links 35 percent of Chinese Belt and Road Initiative projects to scandals involving corruption, environmental problems, labour violations

Over the past several years, hidden debt and problematic projects have begun to emerge as a feature of Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s signature Belt And Road Initiative (BRI).

A new deep-dive study from AidData, a research center at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, adds to this body of research and paints a picture of growing headwinds against Beijing’s infrastructure initiative.

The study found 42 low- and middle-income countries that now have debt exposure to China exceeding 10 percent of their annual gross domestic product (GDP).

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/study-links-35-percent-of-chinese-belt-and-road-initiative-projects-to-scandals-involving-corruption-environmental-problems-labour-violations/

[sscc]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The Western world was predicting China's collapse? Really? Did foreign investment in China collapse in that year?

There's a rule on the landing page of this forum which you should acquaint yourself with.

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

So share a link with us to prove your claim. 

 

 

Indeed  ( Jing Jing ),   you can check back on the the published Western papers and media and news in 2011-12.     Some predicted within 12, 18 and  surely 24 months at most. 

In hindsight,  even many Chinese nowadays acknowledge that was the situation.  

 

I do not know Forum Rules well. 

[placeholder]

Just now, sscc said:

 

Indeed  ( Jing Jing ),   you can check back on the the published Western papers and media and news in 2011-12.     Some predicted within 12, 18 and  surely 24 months at most. 

In hindsight,  even many Chinese nowadays acknowledge that was the situation.  

 

I do not know Forum Rules well. 

No. It's incumbent upon the person who makes the claims to provide support. I'm not your fact checker.

[sscc]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Study links 35 percent of Chinese Belt and Road Initiative projects to scandals involving corruption, environmental problems, labour violations

Over the past several years, hidden debt and problematic projects have begun to emerge as a feature of Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s signature Belt And Road Initiative (BRI).

A new deep-dive study from AidData, a research center at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, adds to this body of research and paints a picture of growing headwinds against Beijing’s infrastructure initiative.

The study found 42 low- and middle-income countries that now have debt exposure to China exceeding 10 percent of their annual gross domestic product (GDP).

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/study-links-35-percent-of-chinese-belt-and-road-initiative-projects-to-scandals-involving-corruption-environmental-problems-labour-violations/

 

Not even bother with your quoted link.

The "Global South" had done the talking .  

 

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Study links 35 percent of Chinese Belt and Road Initiative projects to scandals involving corruption, environmental problems, labour violations

Over the past several years, hidden debt and problematic projects have begun to emerge as a feature of Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s signature Belt And Road Initiative (BRI).

A new deep-dive study from AidData, a research center at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, adds to this body of research and paints a picture of growing headwinds against Beijing’s infrastructure initiative.

The study found 42 low- and middle-income countries that now have debt exposure to China exceeding 10 percent of their annual gross domestic product (GDP).

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/study-links-35-percent-of-chinese-belt-and-road-initiative-projects-to-scandals-involving-corruption-environmental-problems-labour-violations/

Well, in some countries, not having tight ethical contrainsts may be an advantage for the Chinese, at least on short-term. 

However, on a longer term, they may be perceived as a neo-colonialist country by the local populations.

[candide]

1 hour ago, sscc said:

 

One-Belt-One-Road is a very, very high risk. grand scheme undertaking for China. 

" Locals always have the edge and upper-hand "  is barely common sense. 

Fortunately for China,   the mega project had not gone badly so far and over 130 countries had signed on. . 

 

Mentally of Chinese is actually very similar to other Asians nearby. 

" Achieve Monetary enrichment while taking fuss-free and low profile approach. " 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have some reliable information about how risky it is (for the Chinese)?

 

Knowing them, I wouldn't bet they took much risk without guarantors and/or a significant interest rate, ex. the railway project.

[bendejo]

Open warfare with the US would result in China loosing the US market, which would hurt their economy, and the US losing it's main source of cheap goods (bye-bye dollar stores).  I suspect the EU would drastically cut trading ties.

This would be good for cheap labor ASEAN countries.

On the other hand it's said that China is heavily invested in US financial instruments, and if they sell off woe to the US economy. 

Thing about the Belt & Road is that it deals with the governments, and the from what I can make of it the citizens are unimpressed with the Chinese entrepreneurs who have their fingers in nearly every possible business.  China does not have morality stipulations about how these countries treat their people, no sanctions for inhumane treatment of citizens etc.  But it could get to the point where the citizens get fed up with their new colonialists and murder them in their beds, especially Africa.  Colonialism 2.0.

While passing through South Africa a few years back I read a newspaper article about a Chinese big shot who went into a township in his gold Mercedes to collect what was probably protection/extortion money.  What ensued was, well, the article said was too heinous to print, but there was subtle language that gave the impression dismemberment was involved.  And this was just a small article buried in the middle of the newspaper.  Can't help but wonder how often these things happen.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by bendejo