Joe Biden administration blames chaotic Afghan pull-out on Trump

[ozimoron]

36 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I always provide a link.

 

Biden failed, simple as that. Now he has to own it.

Don't tell me you're unaware that links to that information have already been provided and discussed. How many times do you want the same link posted? Cut the trolling.

Edited April 8, 2023 by ozimoron

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Don't tell me you're unaware that links to that information have already been provided and discussed. How many times do you want the same link posted? Cut the trolling.

I don't think you understand. If you repeat something often enough, it becomes true! Some call the thinking behind this The Theory of Wishful Thinking, others call it The Theory of the Big Lie. 

[sqwakvfr]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Here's a link to the official text of the agreement

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf

"non diplomatic" personnel?  So the US agreed to keep the diplomatic mission on going.  So why was the Embassy closed and what about the 8600 military personnel?  

[sqwakvfr]

2 hours ago, candide said:

Is this source ok to you?

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-taliban-peace-deal-agreement-afghanistan-war

"all U.S. and other foreign troops will leave Afghanistan within fourteen months"

 

I let you do the calculation, knowing that the agreement was signed on February 29, 2020

 

Also this one:

"In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban reached a deal, known as the Doha Agreement, under which the United States agreed to withdraw all U.S. forces from Afghanistan by May 2021"

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/US-Withdrawal-from-Afghanistan.pdf

 

 

 

It does state non diplomatic personnel must leave as well.  So the agreement was to keep the diplomatic mission on going? 

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[EVENKEEL]

45 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Don't tell me you're unaware that links to that information have already been provided and discussed. How many times do you want the same link posted? Cut the trolling.

I apologize for having somewhat a life outside anonymous forums. I'll try and do better.

 

But, in the end all the deflections won't absolve  biden for his role in the mishandling of the withdrawl.

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

"...the single most useless governmental agency in modern times: The State Department."

 

That is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.  Was the State Department under former Secretary of War George Marshall useless when it implemented the Marshall Plan, helping western Europe recover from World War II?

 

Was Defense Secretary James Mattis wrong when he said "If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately,"?

 

Have you noticed that in the 21st Century the US Military has shown that it is very good at winning wars, but not at winning the peace?  Winning the peace is the hard part, in fact it's incredibly difficult and the US Military doesn't want the job.  We need a competent, well funded State Department for that.

 

Of course before committing to war it would help tremendously if the US in general and the US President in particular would insist on a credible plan for winning the war and the ensuing peace.

 

 

The Marshall Plan was executed by the military.  I did not see C-47's with DOS flying over Berlin?  Have you ever worked for the State Department?  Have you been inside the Kabul embassy?  I can say yes to both and what I saw from inside was disappointing and at times shocking.  

Just imagine being in a room full of Ivy League school graduates who are tasked to rebuild Afghanistan. The theoretical discussions went on and on but when it came time to go out into the field to engage the locals getting the State Department personnel to accompany military members was like pulling teeth.  Most did not want to leave the comforts of working and living in the secure Embassy compound that had great food, great gym and a store where you can buy all the adult beverages you could desire.  You can't rebuild a nation sitting in a cubicle while typing away on a laptop.  

 

Many of the civil and diplomatic missions were carried out by soldiers, marines, airmen and sailors who knew nothing about these two functions.  

 

Today's State Department. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I apologize for having somewhat a life outside anonymous forums. I'll try and do better.

 

But, in the end all the deflections won't absolve  biden for his role in the mishandling of the withdrawl.

I still don't buy that you are unaware of this. I don't even buy that you have a life outside the forum, lol. The military made the miscalculation, not Biden.

Edited April 8, 2023 by ozimoron

[placeholder]

41 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

"non diplomatic" personnel?  So the US agreed to keep the diplomatic mission on going.  So why was the Embassy closed and what about the 8600 military personnel?  

Maybe, must maybe, the Embassy was closed to avoid another repeat of Iran 1980? 

What about 8600 military personnel? All military personnel were supposed to leave. The 8600 personnel were what was supposed to be left after the first deadline.

[EVENKEEL]

55 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I still don't buy that you are unaware of this. I don't even buy that you have a life outside the forum, lol. The military made the miscalculation, not Biden.

I've posted the link twice, oh don't tell me you're not aware. Biden is CIC, time for him to accept responsibility for his "miscalculation"

[sqwakvfr]

19 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Maybe, must maybe, the Embassy was closed to avoid another repeat of Iran 1980? 

What about 8600 military personnel? All military personnel were supposed to leave. The 8600 personnel were what was supposed to be left after the first deadline.

For the sake of argument let’s say Trump screwed Biden.  So how does Biden deal with the raw deal he got?  Did you deploy additional military force to Afghanistan to ensure an orderly withdrawal?  Based upon my limited military experience at 10,000 to 20,000 additional would have been required to at least provide a security cordon around at least from the Embassy located at Mosoud Circle to the Khalid Kana neighborhood just north of the Kabul Airport.  What actually happened was a in a word a debacle.  There were two failures:  Trump’s agreement and How Biden and his administration executed the withdrawal.  

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I've posted the link twice, oh don't tell me you're not aware. Biden is CIC, time for him to accept responsibility for his "miscalculation"

You know every well that the CIC responds to advice from his military, not the other way round. In what way was the miscalculation made by Biden. He delayed the withdrawal beyond the date set by Trump, that has been made clear.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, sqwakvfr said:

For the sake of argument let’s say Trump screwed Biden.  So how does Biden deal with the raw deal he got?  Did you deploy additional military force to Afghanistan to ensure an orderly withdrawal?  Based upon my limited military experience at 10,000 to 20,000 additional would have been required to at least provide a security cordon around at least from the Embassy located at Mosoud Circle to the Khalid Kana neighborhood just north of the Kabul Airport.  What actually happened was a in a word a debacle.  There were two failures:  Trump’s agreement and How Biden and his administration executed the withdrawal.  

Just fly in a mere 10 to 20 thousand soldiers? And in violation of the agreement? 

I concede that there was a failure of military intelligence. They should have known that the agreement had fatally wounded the effectiveness of Afghan forces which were still dependent on the U.S. military. They screwed up.

 

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I've posted the link twice, oh don't tell me you're not aware. Biden is CIC, time for him to accept responsibility for his "miscalculation"

Is this the link you're referring to?

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/afghanistan-after-action-reports-state-department-pentagon-white-house/

"As late as May 2021, the assessment was still that Kabul would probably not come under serious pressure until late 2021 after U.S. troops departed," the NSC paper said. "As planning intensified throughout the late spring and early summer, intelligence reports continued to suggest that — even if the Taliban made gains in some Afghan provinces — the capital, Kabul, would be more difficult for the Taliban to take and the ANDSF would defend it."

[candide]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Is this the link you're referring to?

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/afghanistan-after-action-reports-state-department-pentagon-white-house/

"As late as May 2021, the assessment was still that Kabul would probably not come under serious pressure until late 2021 after U.S. troops departed," the NSC paper said. "As planning intensified throughout the late spring and early summer, intelligence reports continued to suggest that — even if the Taliban made gains in some Afghan provinces — the capital, Kabul, would be more difficult for the Taliban to take and the ANDSF would defend it."

The usual m.o. with MAGA fans. They are asked to provide a sources they link the first one they find without really reading it!

Another quote From the article:

 "When President Trump took office, there was more than 10,000 American troops in Afghanistan. He took it down to 2,500. He negotiated the release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners that were being held by the Ghani government without consultation with the Ghani government. He negotiated the Doha Agreement with the Taliban without the Ghani government in the room. And he all but froze the Special Immigrant Visa program, which had been providing opportunities for some of our Afghan allies to get out of the country and to come — and to come back."

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

The usual m.o. with MAGA fans. They are asked to provide a sources they link the first one they find without really reading it!

Another quote From the article:

 "When President Trump took office, there was more than 10,000 American troops in Afghanistan. He took it down to 2,500. He negotiated the release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners that were being held by the Ghani government without consultation with the Ghani government. He negotiated the Doha Agreement with the Taliban without the Ghani government in the room. And he all but froze the Special Immigrant Visa program, which had been providing opportunities for some of our Afghan allies to get out of the country and to come — and to come back."

Maybe  because they don't read what they link to they figure nobody does?

[EVENKEEL]

35 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You know every well that the CIC responds to advice from his military, not the other way round. In what way was the miscalculation made by Biden. He delayed the withdrawal beyond the date set by Trump, that has been made clear.

And yet the biden administration wants to blame Trump. I take it you didn't watch Gen Milley testify about the withdrawal. 

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Just fly in a mere 10 to 20 thousand soldiers? And in violation of the agreement? 

I concede that there was a failure of military intelligence. They should have known that the agreement had fatally wounded the effectiveness of Afghan forces which were still dependent on the U.S. military. They screwed up.

 

The Taliban was not in power so there was no other way to withdrawal that many without adequate security.  What’s the worst that could have happened? The Taliban reneges and goes back to their caves. But withdrawal the way it was done still leaves me wilt a bitter taste.  A rapid deployment is something that the 101st Air Assault Division and the 82nd Airborne Division trains for constantly.  Getting beans and bullets anywhere in the world rapidly is something that USAF brags about constantly.  So where was all this military capability during June, July and August of 2021?  Also, then what is the purpose  of spending 700 to 800 Billion for defense when the withdrawal after 20 years turns into such a “Charlie Foxtrot”? As far as I know military planners have had and refined withdrawal plans form Afghanistan for years.  It also referred to a full retrograde operations.  All I call it full “SNAFU” which leads to full “FUBAR”.  As a veteran I am ashamed of everyone that was in office August 2021.  The includes Biden, Austin, and of course Miley. Miley should retire and fade away.  

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The Taliban was not in power so there was no other way to withdrawal that many without adequate security.  What’s worst that could have happened? The Taliban reneges and goes back to their caves. But withdrawal the way it was done still leaves me wilt a bitter taste.  A rapid deployment is something that 101st and 82nd trains for constantly.  Getting beans and bullets anywhere in the world rapidly is something that USAF brags about constantly.  So where was all this military capability during June, July and August of 2021?  

Unless you wanted the US to go into a full war again there was no choice.

 

General Milley:

 

"Milley said it was the advice of the military leadership to stick to the end of August deadline to complete the departure, which the Taliban had accepted.

If the US had stayed on into September to try to evacuate more people, he said: “We would have been at war with the Taliban again,” requiring an extra 20,000 troops to clear Kabul of Taliban fighters and retake Bagram air base near the capital, which the US had abandoned in July."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/28/afghanistan-withdrawal-gen-mark-milley-senate

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The Taliban was not in power so there was no other way to withdrawal that many without adequate security.  What’s worst that could have happened? The Taliban reneges and goes back to their caves. But withdrawal the way it was done still leaves me wilt a bitter taste.  A rapid deployment is something that 101st and 82nd trains for constantly.  Getting beans and bullets anywhere in the world rapidly is something that USAF brags about constantly.  So where was all this military capability during June, July and August of 2021?  

Was the US army defending Kabul?

[sqwakvfr]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Was the US army defending Kabul?

At the time no.  

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

The Taliban was not in power so there was no other way to withdrawal that many without adequate security.  What’s worst that could have happened? The Taliban reneges and goes back to their caves. But withdrawal the way it was done still leaves me wilt a bitter taste.  A rapid deployment is something that 101st and 82nd trains for constantly.  Getting beans and bullets anywhere in the world rapidly is something that USAF brags about constantly.  So where was all this military capability during June, July and August of 2021?  

Towards what end? As I understand it 13 American troops died in the withdrawal. If 10 to 20,000 American troops had returned to Afghanistan, how many of them would have died? How many civilians? What ultimate purpose would have been served by them returning? 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

At the time no.  

Let me suggest at no time.

[sqwakvfr]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Unless you wanted the US to go into a full war again there was no choice.

 

General Milley:

 

"Milley said it was the advice of the military leadership to stick to the end of August deadline to complete the departure, which the Taliban had accepted.

If the US had stayed on into September to try to evacuate more people, he said: “We would have been at war with the Taliban again,” requiring an extra 20,000 troops to clear Kabul of Taliban fighters and retake Bagram air base near the capital, which the US had abandoned in July."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/28/afghanistan-withdrawal-gen-mark-milley-senate

It is called making tough choices.  Having been deployed to Afghanistan twice (2005-2006 and 2010-2011) it was obvious to me the only part that ever was going to be defended to the end was Kabul.  Specifically the part of Kabul from Masoud Circle where the US Embassy was located to Kahir Kana where Kabul Airport was.  The Embassy and the ISAF HQ, Camp Eggers, are located close to the airport.  The additional military personnel would only have been deployed long enough to secure this part of the city.  It could have been done differently than how it was executed.  Of course I never rose to the rank of Gen Miley so what do I know except for what I saw on the ground during my years in Afghanistan.  

[sqwakvfr]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Towards what end? As I understand it 13 American troops died in the withdrawal. If 10 to 20,000 American troops had returned to Afghanistan, how many of them would have died? How many civilians? What ultimate purpose would have been served by them returning? 

To provide security for an orderly withdrawal.  I have been to Abbey gate at Kabul Airport and it is tight.  It looked like a “Charlie Foxtrot”.

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, sqwakvfr said:

It is called making tough choices.  Having been deployed to Afghanistan twice (2005-2006 and 2010-2011) it was obvious to me the only part that ever was going to be defended to the end was Kabul.  Specifically the part of Kabul from Masoud Circle where the US Embassy was located to Kahir Kana where Kabul Airport was.  The Embassy and the ISAF HQ, Camp Eggers, are located close to the airport.  The additional military personnel would only have been deployed long enough to secure this part of the city.  It could have been done differently than how it was executed.  Of course I never rose to the rank of Gen Miley so what do I know except for what I saw on the ground during my years in Afghanistan.  

Yes you've mentioned your time in Afghanistan a few times already, we get it. It does not however over ride the experience and decisions of those that are actually in charge and have the information needed.

[sqwakvfr]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes you've mentioned your time in Afghanistan a few times already, we get it. It does not however over ride the experience and decisions of those that are actually in charge and have the information needed.

Ok.  Just my thoughts based upon my experience.  Of course I was not privy to all information or intelligence.  In terms of the experience of those who are in charge?  The higher one goes, the more they hear from subordinates what they want to hear.  Any soldier will understand what I mean by this.  A Lieutenant wants a promotion to Captain, the Captain want to be a Major, the Major wants to be Lt Colonel and so and so on.  Who wants to rock the boat to his next promotion?  

Edited April 8, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, sqwakvfr said:

Ok.  Just my thoughts based upon my experience.  Of course I was not privy to all information or intelligence.  In terms of the experience of those who are in charge?  The higher one goes, the more they hear from subordinates what they want to hear.  Any soldier will understand what I mean by this.  

The higher up one goes the more privy you become to classified information. I guess that's an aspect you were missing.

[sqwakvfr]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The higher up one goes the more privy you become to classified information. I guess that's an aspect you were missing.

No I did not miss that.  I had a TS SCI for years.  

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

To provide security for an orderly withdrawal.  I have been to Abbey gate at Kabul Airport and it is tight.  It looked like a “Charlie Foxtrot”.

And why such a big sacrifice for the sake of orderliness?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, sqwakvfr said:

No I did not miss that.  I had a TS SCI for years.  

My understanding was that the US military was primarily concerned with attacking the Taliban and for protecting themselves. The Afghan army was responsible for protecting their own. Was that not true?