Move Forward party leader denies lying on TV about his father’s funeral

[zzaa09]

On 4/28/2023 at 11:40 AM, sidneybear said:

Time will tell my friend. There were lots of people saying exactly what you're saying in 2006, and 2014 .... Thailand is a bot like a cat. It always lands on its feet.

One only needs to have some knowledge of the place and it's history to understand all this. 

Thais have never suffered greatly. 

[sidneybear]

8 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

One only needs to have some knowledge of the place and it's history to understand all this. 

Thais have never suffered greatly. 

True, Thailand is a good place to be. I don't understand why so many frothing Liberals, lefties and pensioners here think that the sky is falling in. They should try living back in the west - people are having to choose between heating and eating. 

[quake]

24 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

True, Thailand is a good place to be. I don't understand why so many frothing Liberals, lefties and pensioners here think that the sky is falling in. They should try living back in the west - people are having to choose between heating and eating. 

Just remember,

Your only as good as your last extension in the land of frowns.

and they like to keep it that way. who ever runs the show.

 

 

[sidneybear]

6 minutes ago, quake said:

Just remember,

Your only as good as your last extension in the land of frowns.

and they like to keep it that way. who ever runs the show.

 

 

Thailand has pathways to PR and citizenship, which is something that many other countries don't offer. Those on temporary visas must show that they can support themselves, and those that can never seem to have any problems staying on. Only the borderline cases, those with just enough money to qualify for visas, are at risk from rule changes. 

[quake]

3 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

Only the borderline cases, those with just enough money to qualify for visas, are at risk from rule changes. 

How do you know that ?

Please provide a link,

Ah yes, you can't.

You know what they say about assumption. 

it's the mother of all !!!!!!!!!!!  

 

 

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

Only the borderline cases, those with just enough money to qualify for visas, are at risk from rule changes. 

What makes you  think that rule changes, should they occur, would be of such a minor nature, that only borderline cases would be impacted? Rule changes could potentially be as dire and major as your imagination limits. A word said from a high authority, could be all it took. Idi Amin an example. 

[sidneybear]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

What makes you  think that rule changes, should they occur, would be of such a minor nature, that only borderline cases would be impacted? Rule changes could potentially be as dire and major as your imagination limits. A word said from a high authority, could be all it took. Idi Amin an example. 

Of course you're right that a government thar hates foreigners could get everyone kicked out or fleeing Idi Amin style. Thailand has always been a tolerant place though, so I think that scenario is highly unlikely. Most of the rule changes this far have been incremental, but I wouldn't advise anyone to up sticks and live in any country where they can only just meet minimum visa requirements. People should be over these minimums by a very substantial margin before they consider retiring abroad. 

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, sidneybear said:

Of course you're right that a government thar hates foreigners could get everyone kicked out or fleeing Idi Amin style. Thailand has always been a tolerant place though, so I think that scenario is highly unlikely. Most of the rule changes this far have been incremental, but I wouldn't advise anyone to up sticks and live in any country where they can only just meet minimum visa requirements. People should be over these minimums by a very substantial margin before they consider retiring abroad. 

Fair enough, But at the moment this is a rather xenophobic society, and I am not sure that situation will improve. A few badly behaved foreigners might prove to be the straw to break that back. And foreigners lacking medical cover, (not exactly borderline in my estimate), could be forced out by a relatively easy , often rumoured, rule change.

[sidneybear]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Fair enough, But at the moment this is a rather xenophobic society, and I am not sure that situation will improve. A few badly behaved foreigners might prove to be the straw to break that back. And foreigners lacking medical cover, (not exactly borderline in my estimate), could be forced out by a relatively easy , often rumoured, rule change.

All true, but I do wonder why anyone would live in a country,  in old age, where they can't afford medical treatment. It's only a matter of time before we blow a gasket, after all.

 

I do agree that patience might be wearing thin on westerners though, especially given the amount of preaching the west does, while failing dismally to keep its own house in order. Thais don't like that, which is why I'm always polite and respectful towards them.

[quake]

11 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

I do agree that patience might be wearing thin on westerners though, especially given the amount of preaching the west does, while failing dismally to keep its own house in order. Thais don't like that, which is why I'm always polite and respectful towards them.

Think you have that back to front.  

 

 

 

[sidneybear]

3 minutes ago, quake said:

Think you have that back to front.  

 

 

 

I wish you all the very best of luck trying to live in Thailand then. You'll need it.

[quake]

13 minutes ago, sidneybear said:

I wish you all the very best of luck trying to live in Thailand then. You'll need it.

Been here 23 years. 

Unlike yourself.

Good luck with the English teaching job.

Just remember,  nothing last forever. 

Good luck.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by quake

[herfiehandbag]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:57 AM, sidneybear said:

It all depends how far back you go. Thailand these days has a growing middle class and people are much better off than they were. It's achieved a lot, without losing its delightful culture and national identity. 

 

To say that there's "something wrong" with those who hold a political opinion that differs from yours is ad hominem: it epitomises a modern and degenerated state of debate that's popular in the west right now. Conservative Thais look at your viewpoint, and it's results elsewhere, and may well conclude that 'progress' is not always a good thing, as it often involves sliding backwards and downwards. We'll see manifestations of that very soon, and I welcome Thaksin and his divisive and crooked family getting kicked out again. Ditto that culturally bereft Future Forward socialist. 

 

You're also confusing conservatism with communism, so you might want to read up on the glaring differences between the two.

There is nothing wrong with holding a conservative opinion, be you Thai or foreigner. I myself am probably (in terms of the UK political spectrum) regarded as fairly conservative ( Tory?); although I understand that my views probably do not fit other, particularly American definitions of "conservative". I certainly wouldn't regard "Move Forward" as socialist.

 

What is wrong is believing that conservatism is somehow justified in retaining power even if they lose the election; and using that belief to justify all the cheating, faux use of constitutional "agencies" and powers, and ultimately the threat of armed intervention to achieve retaining power.

 

I expect the combination of Pheu Thai and the progressive movement to win a convincing majority. I expect that win to be overturned by the "establishment".

What then happens will direct the future path of Thailand for a generation. Much has changed,  over the last ten years. Younger people are more connected, organised and vocal using the medium of their choice,( social media) which is neither controlled nor understood by the "establishment" - nor, dare I say it, by many of us! The single most unifying force in this society, the one which virtually all had in common, most respected, and which was arguably cynically manipulated by "the establishment" has quite simply gone, and has not been replaced.

 

Two very big differences this time round.

 

The "Hun Lakhon Lek puppet theatre" beloved of @zzaa09 may continue to play, but increasingly to empty houses.

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[zzaa09]

4 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

There is nothing wrong with holding a conservative opinion, be you Thai or foreigner. I myself am probably (in terms of the UK political spectrum) regarded as fairly conservative ( Tory?); although I understand that my views probably do not fit other, particularly American definitions of "conservative". I certainly wouldn't regard "Move Forward" as socialist.

 

What is wrong is believing that conservatism is somehow justified in retaining power even if they lose the election; and using that belief to justify all the cheating, faux use of constitutional "agencies" and powers, and ultimately the threat of armed intervention to achieve retaining power.

 

I expect the combination of Pheu Thai and the progressive movement to win a convincing majority. I expect that win to be overturned by the "establishment".

What then happens will direct the future path of Thailand for a generation. Much has changed,  over the last ten years. Younger people are more connected, organised and vocal using the medium of their choice,( social media) which is neither controlled nor understood by the "establishment" - nor, dare I say it, by many of us! The single most unifying force in this society, the one which virtually all had in common, most respected, and which was arguably cynically manipulated by "the establishment" has quite simply gone, and has not been replaced.

 

Two very big differences this time round.

 

The "Hun Lakhon Lek puppet theatre" beloved of @zzaa09 may continue to play, but increasingly to empty houses.

 

 

 

Pheu Thai aren't progressive.

Nothing close to that.

 

 

....yet, many are buying it - hook, line and sinker.

[herfiehandbag]

5 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Pheu Thai aren't progressive.

Nothing close to that.

 

 

....yet, many are buying it - hook, line and sinker.

I didn't say they were progressive. I talked of the likelihood of Pheu Thai and the progressive movement winning a convincing majority.

 

It remains to be seen of course whether they will work together, formally or informally.

[quake]

I think they are sill breading dinosaurs.

A few new species, but still dinosaurs at heart,  in the end.

 

 

 

[sidneybear]

28 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

There is nothing wrong with holding a conservative opinion, be you Thai or foreigner. I myself am probably (in terms of the UK political spectrum) regarded as fairly conservative ( Tory?); although I understand that my views probably do not fit other, particularly American definitions of "conservative". I certainly wouldn't regard "Move Forward" as socialist.

 

What is wrong is believing that conservatism is somehow justified in retaining power even if they lose the election; and using that belief to justify all the cheating, faux use of constitutional "agencies" and powers, and ultimately the threat of armed intervention to achieve retaining power.

 

I expect the combination of Pheu Thai and the progressive movement to win a convincing majority. I expect that win to be overturned by the "establishment".

What then happens will direct the future path of Thailand for a generation. Much has changed,  over the last ten years. Younger people are more connected, organised and vocal using the medium of their choice,( social media) which is neither controlled nor understood by the "establishment" - nor, dare I say it, by many of us! The single most unifying force in this society, the one which virtually all had in common, most respected, and which was arguably cynically manipulated by "the establishment" has quite simply gone, and has not been replaced.

 

Two very big differences this time round.

 

The "Hun Lakhon Lek puppet theatre" beloved of @zzaa09 may continue to play, but increasingly to empty houses.

All good points you eloquently make, although I'd differ on a couple.

 

Firstly, saying that you're aligned with the UK conservative party doesn't really reveal much, because the UK conservative party these days is merely a marketing machine that has no politics or ideology of its own whatsoever. It merely morphs parasitically onto whatever fads or band wagons it thinks will get it short term support, and I'd challenge you to name a single conservative thing that it's done in recent years, decades even.

 

Secondly, I do understand that liberal minded westerners are affronted by the way Thailand goes about its politics and its methods of ejecting bad actors from its political system. Many will cry foul and point to their own countries as role models, although they're not really role models at all, given that parties that call themselves conservative (see above) have themselves been usurped by the Left and are no longer conservative at all. What kind of democracies are these really? In Thailand's case, the end justifies the meas: yes, it's messy, but the outcome is a well ordered and safe society that we all enjoy living in, along with its charmingly preserved culture and traditions. 

 

Thirdly, we shouldn't underestimate the power of Thailand's institutions. There have been changes at the top, but Thais are fiercely loyal to the uniform and the sovereign, regardless of the humans who occupy these positions. Any dissent against this is rightly struck down, along with any politicians who tries to exploit such dissent and incite division for political gain.

[sidneybear]

1 hour ago, quake said:

Been here 23 years. 

Unlike yourself.

Good luck with the English teaching job.

Just remember,  nothing last forever. 

Good luck.

 

 

Eeeew, someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. I'm not an English teacher, although I do have a great amount of respect for the teaching profession. 

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, sidneybear said:

All true, but I do wonder why anyone would live in a country,  in old age, where they can't afford medical treatment. It's only a matter of time before we blow a gasket, after all.

Yes, it has me concerned too. Self insurance is perhaps an option... but there are hospitals, that may be good, but focus on profits, and doctors who, I suspect, think more about a new Porsche or Merc, than patients. I have been disappointed by medical insurance that I find available here.

[sidneybear]

14 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes, it has me concerned too. Self insurance is perhaps an option... but there are hospitals, that may be good, but focus on profits, and doctors who, I suspect, think more about a new Porsche or Merc, than patients. I have been disappointed by medical insurance that I find available here.

A friend of mine was fired by BUPA when he turned 70. They also had the cheek to offer his younger wife a renewal. Self insurance is the only sure fire way. Glitzy hospitals are worth avoiding for the reason you mentioned, and make sure you get second opinions and quotes on anything substantial. 

[zzaa09]

11 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Fair enough, But at the moment this is a rather xenophobic society, and I am not sure that situation will improve. A few badly behaved foreigners might prove to be the straw to break that back. And foreigners lacking medical cover, (not exactly borderline in my estimate), could be forced out by a relatively easy , often rumoured, rule change.

More astute observations will strongly suggest that it's not society that propels a sense of this imagined xenophobia, but some circles of officialdom and authority. Thais, largely, have never been of this nature. 

 

Yet, their counterparts of political and authoritarian circles have subliminally displayed such a manner for ages. 

All which doesn't reflect the nature of the everyday Thai population. 

[NanLaew]

19 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

21 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I can't speak for Bangkok but the provincial capital of Udon Thani has developed and expanded more in the past five or six years on Prayuth's watch than it ever did under the original TRT and subsequent Thaksin-led administrations.

What an extraordinary achievement, especially given the fact that two of the six years you mention were pandemic years. Prayuth must be a genius. I am curious though, given Prayuth’s outstanding success in developing Udon Thani, why is he so unpopular? I mean, you’ve made it clear that Thaksin’s meagre efforts merit no adulation yet here we are 20 years later and vast numbers of Thais worship the man as a god primarily for being the first PM to invest in rural development on a meaningful scale. Quite the quandary. Perhaps the answer lies in the lack of accuracy of your assessment of the comparative success achieved by each side of Thai politics.

AFAIK, the pandemic affected ALL parts of the nation so why do you suggest its impact on rural poverty is more significant?

 

Maybe it's the 'provincial capital' bit that you can't get your head around? They don't grow rice and tapioca in Bangkok and they don't do it in Meuang Udon Thani either. I was (and still am) talking about the cities, not the villages.

 

You don't need me to educate you on why Prayuth holds no sway in northernmost Isaan where a vote, any vote, still comes from incentives. However, one of the notable, Thaksin-related non-events in the big city was a large, premium housing development, largely funded by SC Asset that, having already commenced construction and sales, was found to be illegal and being built on land NOT allocated for housing. It was stopped and it's been shuttered for over 10 years now. Prior to that, the 168 Platinum Mall was going to be the mega mall to end all mega malls but alas the coup (and a reality check) put an end to that grand scheme. There's no denying that Thaksin invested in the heartland of his support. However, it has recently been eclipsed by the outgoing ragbag of scoundrels. despite the pandemic. No fancy housing estates for the burgeoining middle class (on credit) but notable improvments in power, utlities and other infrastructure including social for the benefit of everyone.

 

The rebound from Covid has witnessed markedly faster city and rural infrastructure development than in the years preceding it and that, as stated, was far more than anything seen in the glorious 'Thaksin years'. The po' folks got their handouts and freebies and outside of droughts (where Prayuth implored farmers NOT to plant unsustaninable second rice crops), production still went up. In the 'Thaksin years', the traders and middle-men at the rice mills got filthy rich but the farmers less so. Why do you think Yingluck's Ponzi rice price fixing scheme isn't talked about much by those of a red persuasion? The farmers also got easy credit and spent it without recourse to repaying debts incurred but that's an educational issue more than anything. Thaksin and his ilk weren't big on that either.

[NanLaew]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:27 PM, MrMojoRisin said:

Vietnam PPP household income went from US$894 in 2010 to US$2178 in 2021.

That, my friend, is a 243% increase in the same time it took Thailand to achieve 48.7%

In an apples with apples comparison, between 2010 and 2021, the median household income (PPP) in Thailand rose from $15,523 to $23,076.

 

Vietnam started from the 'back of the grid'* in 2010. So your stats are more like proof, if ever proof was needed, that socialism with a dash of populism goes a very, very long way.

 

* That means they're playing catch-up. That's how countries tend to develop.

[NanLaew]

18 hours ago, sidneybear said:

Thailand has pathways to PR and citizenship, which is something that many other countries don't offer. Those on temporary visas must show that they can support themselves, and those that can never seem to have any problems staying on. Only the borderline cases, those with just enough money to qualify for visas, are at risk from rule changes. 

Thailand has limited and pedantic pathways to PR and citizenship that still don't confer 'birthright' priveleges. Some other countries offer an easier, more inclusive route.

 

So, if you've got a wedge, you're good to go.

 

Got it.

[candide]

16 hours ago, sidneybear said:

All good points you eloquently make, although I'd differ on a couple.

 

Firstly, saying that you're aligned with the UK conservative party doesn't really reveal much, because the UK conservative party these days is merely a marketing machine that has no politics or ideology of its own whatsoever. It merely morphs parasitically onto whatever fads or band wagons it thinks will get it short term support, and I'd challenge you to name a single conservative thing that it's done in recent years, decades even.

 

Secondly, I do understand that liberal minded westerners are affronted by the way Thailand goes about its politics and its methods of ejecting bad actors from its political system. Many will cry foul and point to their own countries as role models, although they're not really role models at all, given that parties that call themselves conservative (see above) have themselves been usurped by the Left and are no longer conservative at all. What kind of democracies are these really? In Thailand's case, the end justifies the meas: yes, it's messy, but the outcome is a well ordered and safe society that we all enjoy living in, along with its charmingly preserved culture and traditions. 

 

Thirdly, we shouldn't underestimate the power of Thailand's institutions. There have been changes at the top, but Thais are fiercely loyal to the uniform and the sovereign, regardless of the humans who occupy these positions. Any dissent against this is rightly struck down, along with any politicians who tries to exploit such dissent and incite division for political gain.

About your "thirdly", It's likely not true any more. There has been a significant change of attitude since a few years and Thais are talking rather freely about it (Not publicly of course). They perfectly know the military are a bunch of crooks and are quite aware about other things I will not address here.

 

Thaksin, despite his flaws, opened Pandora's box and it will never be like before. The recent changes just amplified this phenomena.

 

Of course, appointed people still hold a significant power (possibly still more than elected people), and are still able to prevent an elected government they don't like from governing, in one way or another. However, it is unlikely they may be able to do that with a large approval from the Thai people.

[sidneybear]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Thailand has limited and pedantic pathways to PR and citizenship that still don't confer 'birthright' priveleges. Some other countries offer an easier, more inclusive route.

 

So, if you've got a wedge, you're good to go.

 

Got it.

It all comes down to either: skills, which get you a work permit and a path to PR and citizenship, or wedge, which gets you visa renewals for marriage, family or retirement. Lots of wedge gets you an elite visa for very long stays.

[sidneybear]

1 hour ago, candide said:

About your "thirdly", It's likely not true any more. There has been a significant change of attitude since a few years and Thais are talking rather freely about it (Not publicly of course). They perfectly know the military are a bunch of crooks and are quite aware about other things I will not address here.

 

Thaksin, despite his flaws, opened Pandora's box and it will never be like before. The recent changes just amplified this phenomena.

 

Of course, appointed people still hold a significant power (possibly still more than elected people), and are still able to prevent an elected government they don't like from governing, in one way or another. However, it is unlikely they may be able to do that with a large approval from the Thai people.

People (myself included) have been saying through the years that governments will never be ejected again, and it's different this time, so I wouldn't bet on that. Already, there has been a complaint raised against Thaksin's lot in the constitutional court, so as I've said elsewhere, stock up on popcorn. This movie does have rather a predictable happy ending though.

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by sidneybear

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

All which doesn't reflect the nature of the everyday Thai population. 

I say it depends where you are. People are simpler and friendlier out in the countryside, but you will never be treated as an equal. And in touristy places like say Pattaya, you would have to be dense not to notice the negative sentiment. The worst of it is, politicians utilize it. Who can believe some of the comments that come from so called educated mouths. 

[MrMojoRisin]

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

In an apples with apples comparison, between 2010 and 2021, the median household income (PPP) in Thailand rose from $15,523 to $23,076.

 

Vietnam started from the 'back of the grid'* in 2010. So your stats are more like proof, if ever proof was needed, that socialism with a dash of populism goes a very, very long way.

 

* That means they're playing catch-up. That's how countries tend to develop.

The point in using Vietnam’s figures was to illustrate that Thailand’s “growth” over the same period was underwhelming - 48% sounds significant,  but really it isn’t because as you have just stated, starting from the back end of the grid warps the statistics (Thailand in 2010 was not as far back as Vietnam, but it was still far, far from the front end).

[NanLaew]

15 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

The point in using Vietnam’s figures was to illustrate that Thailand’s “growth” over the same period was underwhelming - 48% sounds significant,  but really it isn’t because as you have just stated, starting from the back end of the grid warps the statistics (Thailand in 2010 was not as far back as Vietnam, but it was still far, far from the front end).

You chose to compare a large %age increase with a cash number. I simply chose to make the cash-with-cash comparison to take your growth "OMG! Thailand's crap under Prayuth!" conjecture out of the narrative.

 

I worked in Vietnam regularly, say 4-5 months of the year between 2005 to 2018, while living in Thailand. Excluding a lot of the northern part of the country, Vietnam's catch-up has been very real and a lot faster than Thailand's which I started visiting in 1978 and living in from 1980.