Englishman fights for his life after motorbike crash in Phuket, Thailand

[The Fugitive]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

so what do you suggest? - leave him to die?

The same thing will happen to him that normally happens if unable to pay (or keep up with) costs of treatment. Care continues but treatment is discontinued. The patient dies from his injuries and immobility. Thailand isn't the UK. 

[Goat]

I will donate $500 again. We got the last kid home last month finally.

 

Is it just me or is it always Brits that crash their bikes badly in thailand and have poor families who cant help them financially so set up a Go Fund Me?  

 

They will never be the same.

I hope the shop front he destoyed was insured otherwise they will have to wear the loss.

[Goat]

42 minutes ago, transam said:

Nope, if the bike rental shop let him loose on a bike with no licence, then they are responsible.

No bike, no accident.....

 

 

Yeah nah.

Myself and nearly all my friends here rented motorbikes here in our twenties. It was a convenient cheap way to get around. 

Yes we sometimes rode home drunk/drugged but you just be more careful.

 

It is good for the shops who rent them out making an income and it is good for the tourists who end up having a much funner holiday and can see a lot more. A win win. Especially the younger backpacker type crowd who cant really afford expensive tours and taxis.

 

Banning them because of a few reckless kids isnt a good solution. He was probably drunk? You dont want to ban beer do you?

Nobody made this kid rent a bike. 

But he needs help now so we foreigners should band together and help him.

[The Fugitive]

26 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This problem will occur over and over again – it is inevitable and Thailand needs to address it – just stating the “bleedin’ obvious” achieves nothing. Thailand gets up to 20% of GDP from tourism and they have a duty to their customers….both to inform and care for them. The Thai health service is nowhere near as good as people think and ethically it is highly questionable. They need to take a leaf out of western healthcare in these circumstances…

 

If an uninsured foreigner has serious injuries from a motorcycle crash in the UK, they will still receive medical treatment regardless of their insurance status. The UK National Health Service (NHS), will provide free healthcare to anyone who needs it, including visitors to the country.

 

Subsequently, the injured person can be liable for the cost of the medical treatment they received. If they cannot afford to pay for their treatment, they may be asked to sign a form agreeing to pay the cost of the treatment at a later date or the hospital may try to recover the cost from their travel insurance if they have one.

 

In addition to medical costs, the foreigner may face legal consequences for driving without insurance. As in Thailand, in the UK, it is illegal to drive a vehicle without insurance, and if caught, the person may face penalties such as fines, points on their driving license, or even a driving ban. They may also be liable for any damage caused to other vehicles or property as a result of the accident. The difference is that the UK is capable of chasing up and enforcing these things – it seems in Thailand the solution is to moan at the victim and family and then let them die from sub-par treatment

What you are suggesting is giving uninsured foreign visitors/tourists in UK and also in Thailand preferential treatment to Nationals/residents. Where injuries result from a road traffic accident the patient receives a bill from the National Health Service. This applies both in UK and Thailand.

[IvorBiggun2]

30 minutes ago, Goat said:

I hope the shop front he destoyed was insured otherwise they will have to wear the loss.

Not necessarily. When there's an accident here where insurance isn't held then the police will decide as to who pays what. In this case I doubt either parties have insurance. So the likelihood is that the motorcyclist with be told to pay for the shop damage as well as the uninsured motorcycle. Thereby increasing the family's GoFundMe. 

[The Fugitive]

11 minutes ago, Goat said:

Yeah nah.

Myself and nearly all my friends here rented motorbikes here in our twenties. It was a convenient cheap way to get around. 

Yes we sometimes rode home drunk/drugged but you just be more careful.

 

It is good for the shops who rent them out making an income and it is good for the tourists who end up having a much funner holiday and can see a lot more. A win win. Especially the younger backpacker type crowd who cant really afford expensive tours and taxis.

 

Banning them because of a few reckless kids isnt a good solution. He was probably drunk? You dont want to ban beer do you?

Nobody made this kid rent a bike. 

But he needs help now so we foreigners should band together and help him.

Very true practical points made. I can't honestly see how these situations will ever end. It is most compassionate of you to contribute $500 USD.

[kwilco]

36 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

What you are suggesting is giving uninsured foreign visitors/tourists in UK and also in Thailand preferential treatment to Nationals/residents. Where injuries result from a road traffic accident the patient receives a bill from the National Health Service. This applies both in UK and Thailand.

What a facile comment - do you really have tat limited an understanding? the amount of treatment (and the standard) received in Thai hospitals is not uniform or even complete, it is down to the hospital to decode how much to spend. Much treatment therapy is withheld due to concerns of cost.

What is your solution?

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, BritScot said:

just like the poor Steve with the stingray.

If he had stopped provoking all kinds of wild life, it wouldn't have happened. poor steve my ass

[racket]

Absolutely horrible! I feel so sorry for this guy. I really hope he makes it ????

[The Fugitive]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

What a facile comment - do you really have tat limited an understanding?

What is your solution?

My Thai family have been billed by their National Health Service several times for treatment of various family members injured in road traffic accidents. Treatment was not provided under their 30 baht schemes because that's what motor insurance is for. That's something that Brits abroad seem to have difficulty understanding. As I see it, the only solution is compulsory travel insurance to include personal accident cover whilst riding/driving. Unfortunately, as we all know, very few Brits hold motorcycle licences so that would preclude most tourists. 

[1FinickyOne]

I have not read the entire thread but did anyone know how fast he was going? 

 

Had to be way way fast. 

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, 1FinickyOne said:

I have not read the entire thread but did anyone know how fast he was going? 

 

Had to be way way fast. 

Not really... If you run into a window here it’ll smash...  (it clearly wasn’t tempered / safety glass).

 

Thus, it could have been anything that caused a ‘wobble’ off path and thats it..  even at just 30 kmh.

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

46 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

My Thai family have been billed by their National Health Service several times for treatment of various family members injured in road traffic accidents. Treatment was not provided under their 30 baht schemes because that's what motor insurance is for. That's something that Brits abroad seem to have difficulty understanding. As I see it, the only solution is compulsory travel insurance to include personal accident cover whilst riding/driving. Unfortunately, as we all know, very few Brits hold motorcycle licences so that would preclude most tourists. 

So... perhaps they should have a law in place which prevents these motorcycle rental shops from renting out Motorcycles to those without licences....  erm..  

 

 

But... the discussion above turned to ‘cost’ for treatment... so there is this: The medical cost burden of foreign tourists in Thailand is less than 0.04% of income from overseas tourists.

(info: Tourism income: 883 Billion / medical burden from tourists 380 Million)

 

 

It's not really harming Thailand at all to treat injured tourists with full care and respect without greed. 

In fact, doing so would bring more tourists. 

 

There is also the ‘responsibility’ side of the argument, Thailand (officialdom) is responsible for the lackadaisical levels of enforcement - could an unlicensed rider have caused the accident, the glass itself was not safety glass (any regulations there?) etc etc...

 

There is of course the counter argument that tourists are also responsible for themselves and thats true. 

 

BUT...  from the facet of ‘care’ the official line is negative one, particularly when Thailand profits so much from tourist....  It like complaining the ‘golden goose’ left a scratch on your floor... 

 

 

 

 

[it is what it is]

 

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

So... perhaps they should have a law in place which prevents these motorcycle rental shops from renting out Motorcycles to those without licences....  erm..  

 

 

But... the discussion above turned to ‘cost’ for treatment... so there is this: The medical cost burden of foreign tourists in Thailand is less than 0.04% of income from overseas tourists.

(info: Tourism income: 883 Billion / medical burden from tourists 380 Million)

 

 

It's not really harming Thailand at all to treat injured tourists with full care and respect without greed. 

In fact, doing so would bring more tourists. 

 

There is also the ‘responsibility’ side of the argument, Thailand (officialdom) is responsible for the lackadaisical levels of enforcement - could an unlicensed rider have caused the accident, the glass itself was not safety glass (any regulations there?) etc etc...

 

There is of course the counter argument that tourists are also responsible for themselves and thats true. 

 

BUT...  from the facet of ‘care’ the official line is negative one, particularly when Thailand profits so much from tourist....  It like complaining the ‘golden goose’ left a scratch on your floor... 

 

 

 

 

totally agree with you regarding the cost of uninsured tourist medical care, unfortunately this is a topic thais have a real bee in their bonnet about, partly xenophobic and partly because they have pay for half decent medical care - they hate to see a 'foreigner' getting something for free.

 

 

[Petethefeet]

11 hours ago, sikishrory said:

A "system" like police doing their job enforcing road law would really help.

It's a strange concept but whenever I've rented vehicles in Australia they ask for a licence.

Years ago I rented a car on line for collection at Perpignan airport in France. I got to the rental office and realised I had forgotten my driving licence. They wouldn't allow me to rent. The companies who rent the motorbikes in Thailand have to swallow the cost of the damaged or written off bikes I guess. Probably deposits don't cover it. 

[torturedsole]

I've not much experience riding motorbikes and unlicenced in UK and LoS so don't bother but I could pick up my wife's Honda Dream keys right this second and go for a joyride round the streets of PHS.

 

My travel insurance covers me to ride pillion (subject to conditions), but I'm not insured to operate a motorbike. If I crash and have to go to a Thai hospital, then I'm liable to cover the cost of treatment and this is fair as it's entirely my own responsibility not to get on the bike in the first place.

 

I wouldn't be happy to support an endless pot of money model to bail foreigners out of their own stupidity.

[The Fugitive]

29 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

So... perhaps they should have a law in place which prevents these motorcycle rental shops from renting out Motorcycles to those without licences....  erm..  

 

 

But... the discussion above turned to ‘cost’ for treatment... so there is this: The medical cost burden of foreign tourists in Thailand is less than 0.04% of income from overseas tourists.

(info: Tourism income: 883 Billion / medical burden from tourists 380 Million)

 

 

It's not really harming Thailand at all to treat injured tourists with full care and respect without greed. 

In fact, doing so would bring more tourists. 

 

There is also the ‘responsibility’ side of the argument, Thailand (officialdom) is responsible for the lackadaisical levels of enforcement - could an unlicensed rider have caused the accident, the glass itself was not safety glass (any regulations there?) etc etc...

 

There is of course the counter argument that tourists are also responsible for themselves and thats true. 

 

BUT...  from the facet of ‘care’ the official line is negative one, particularly when Thailand profits so much from tourist....  It like complaining the ‘golden goose’ left a scratch on your floor... 

Putting the onus on a lady who rents out motos to insist upon seeing valid riding licences is really asking a lot. We rented one from a massage shop whilst in Phuket hence that wasn't even her core business. Tourists are going to claim they do, of course, have a licence but forgot to bring it with them on this occasion, offering a little extra cash. What's the shopkeeper going to do?

[The Fugitive]

7 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

I've not much experience riding motorbikes and unlicenced in UK and LoS so don't bother but I could pick up my wife's Honda Dream keys right this second and go for a joyride round the streets of PHS.

 

My travel insurance covers me to ride pillion (subject to conditions), but I'm not insured to operate a motorbike. If I crash and have to go to a Thai hospital, then I'm liable to cover the cost of treatment and this is fair as it's entirely my own responsibility not to get on the bike in the first place.

 

I wouldn't be happy to support an endless pot of money model to bail foreigners out of their own stupidity.

Others seem to be suggesting that it makes financial sense and it's also more humane to cover tourists under Thai National Health Service. To do that it would only be fair to include Thai's injured in road traffic accidents also. I very much doubt that the Thai Government would do either.   

[torturedsole]

1 minute ago, The Fugitive said:

Others seem to be suggesting that it makes financial sense and it's also more humane to cover tourists under Thai National Health Service. To do that it would only be fair to include Thai's injured in road traffic accidents also. I very much doubt that the Thai Government would do either.   

Nobody would ever purchase travel insurance again for LoS if that were the case.

 

It's the same for dangerous sports, either you've got the correct insurance coverage, or you haven't, and just coming to Thailand is a dangerous enough sport for me. It's unworkable and rum logic.

 

My travel insurance is solid as long as I'm not an idiot and stick to the terms of the contract. 

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Putting the onus on a lady who rents out motos to insist upon seeing valid riding licences is really asking a lot. We rented one from a massage shop whilst in Phuket hence that wasn't even her core business. Tourists are going to claim they do, of course, have a licence but forgot to bring it with them on this occasion, offering a little extra cash. What's the shopkeeper going to do?

It works in many other places, rather works in other countries, why wouldn’t that work in Thailand ? because of slack law enforcement. 

 

There’s nothing stopping you from borrowing my rental car in the UK, but IF you are in an accident I am liable for the costs of the damage because you are not insured. IF you are not licensed you are in for a hefty fine. 

 

Here in Thailand... there is no accountability whatsoever....     AND, there already are laws in place which are supposed to stop people renting out vehicles (bikes and cars) to people without licences. 

 

Just as with many other failed facets of Thailand, the laws are perfectly reasonable, the lack of enforcement just means there may as we not be any laws. 

 

 

Of course, tourists are also responsible for themselves...  BUT, Thailand still allows a lot of this to happen. 

Why is it third world and developing nations where these things occur ???....    the answer is obvious, because they have not yet developed and there is no model of accountability which prevents these issues. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Nobody would ever purchase travel insurance again for LoS if that were the case.

 

It's the same for dangerous sports, either you've got the correct insurance coverage, or you haven't, and just coming to Thailand is a dangerous enough sport for me. It's unworkable and rum logic.

 

My travel insurance is solid as long as I'm not an idiot and stick to the terms of the contract. 

There doesn’t have to be ‘one or the other’ there could be an ‘intelligent approach’... 

 

i.e. Tourist Visa must show travel insurance (medical) up to xxx cover for submission. 

Resident visas (i.e. Non-Imm O) could either show private insurance or pay into a national scheme to ensure cover. 

Short term Tourists (visa exempt arrivals) are automatically covered on Thai Healthy care (why not - remember so much more money is brought in by tourism (I’ll repeat - the medical cost burden of tourism in Thailand is 0.04% of the income from tourism). 

 

I don’t think its hard - it just needs an approach that isn’t greedy and looks at what Thailand gains from doing the right thing. 

 

 

There will still always be those who fall through the cracks etc...  there always is, but putting clear, concise and manageable systems in place ensures people are take care of. 

 

 

 

 

 

[sikishrory]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It works in many other places, rather works in other countries, why wouldn’t that work in Thailand ? because of slack law enforcement. 

 

There’s nothing stopping you from borrowing my rental car in the UK, but IF you are in an accident I am liable for the costs of the damage because you are not insured. IF you are not licensed you are in for a hefty fine. 

 

Here in Thailand... there is no accountability whatsoever....     AND, there already are laws in place which are supposed to stop people renting out vehicles (bikes and cars) to people without licences. 

 

Just as with many other failed facets of Thailand, the laws are perfectly reasonable, the lack of enforcement just means there may as we not be any laws. 

 

 

Of course, tourists are also responsible for themselves...  BUT, Thailand still allows a lot of this to happen. 

Why is it third world and developing nations where these things occur ???....    the answer is obvious, because they have not yet developed and there is no model of accountability which prevents these issues. 

 

 

Totally agree. It's pretty simple. "Oh the poor motorbike rental lady" tough s**t. Sell pad thai or something.

Realistically the motorbike rental market would shrink by about 80% if they only rented to tourists with motorbike licenses.

The taxis would have a field day.

Another thing is the condition of the bikes being rented. Often bald tyres or dodgy engine or brakes.

Really though as someone else said people need to take responsibility for themselves.

 

[torturedsole]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

There doesn’t have to be ‘one or the other’ there could be an ‘intelligent approach’... 

 

i.e. Tourist Visa must show travel insurance (medical) up to xxx cover for submission. 

Resident visas (i.e. Non-Imm O) could either show private insurance or pay into a national scheme to ensure cover. 

Short term Tourists (visa exempt arrivals) are automatically covered on Thai Healthy care (why not - remember so much more money is brought in by tourism (I’ll repeat - the medical cost burden of tourism in Thailand is 0.04% of the income from tourism). 

 

I don’t think its hard - it just needs an approach that isn’t greedy and looks at what Thailand gains from doing the right thing.

My wife and I regularly visit Europe for short breaks but there has never been a requirement to evidence adequate travel insurance coverage for each and every eventuality.

 

It's the same the world over, the onus of responsibility is on the traveller to have a backup plan(s), otherwise we're on our own. 

 

If people want to take unnecessary risks, so be it, although Go Fund Me make a lot of money from irresponsible travellers. 

 

[MUSTYJACK]

12 hours ago, kwilco said:

How many more this year before people realise there is a serious problem.

It's no good for the "told-you-so" brigade bemoaning a lack of insurance.

Thailand has a responsibility for the safety of visitors and there needs to be a system in place to deal with people with no i=or insufficient insurance - this WILL happen again and again.

Hospitals need to know they will get paid and then either the victims, their families or a fund needs to be brought in to finance this. The first thing is to sae lives - not keep people in stasis until the money turns up.

The responsibility of dealing with uninsured tourists lies firmly with the uninsured themselves and with nobody else. 

 

Then the families of these people are spared both the financial pain of the hospital bills, and the embarrassment of handing round the begging bowl.

 

Brits especially seem to belong to a victim culture that believes that responsibility  lies not with themselves but with "the government", "the council" or "the pothole". If a motorcyclists eyesight is so poor that he cant see a pothole in the road, then he is either going too fast or he needs glasses and therefore should not be on a motorbike in the first place.

 

I dont know if this chap had insurance or not, but the fact that there is a gofundme page begging for handouts suggests he is uninsured. Actions as well as inactions have consequences.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

With all of the criticisms and they only have themselves to blame comments from so many posters it seems we have forgotten our humanity....

 

What is wrong with just guaranteeing medical care for anyone in any country, visitor or otherwise ????

The ‘bottom line Americanisation’ approach has diluted our moral integrity to offer the most basic care and people are agreeing with this policy...... 

 

 

It really isn’t that hard for all countries to simply provide emergency medical care for everyone, locals and visitors - all they have to do is say they’ll do it and put something in place. 

 

It becomes more complex with private hospitals....  but really, that shouldn’t matter either. 

 

Emergency medical care should come first, foremost and above everything else and it should be free until the patent is safe enough to be moved home or another facility. 

 

 

 

I don't know how we got here...  its not as if people are travelling to other countries as tourist for ‘free emergency treatment’ (of course elective treatment is something quite different). 

 

This is not a criticism of Thailand, it's a criticism of any country which does not provide people with free emergency care. 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

My wife and I regularly visit Europe for short breaks but there has never been a requirement to evidence adequate travel insurance coverage for each and every eventuality.

 

It's the same the world over, the onus of responsibility is on the traveller to have a backup plan(s), otherwise we're on our own. 

 

If people want to take unnecessary risks, so be it, although Go Fund Me make a lot of money from irresponsible travellers. 

 

Your Wife is Thai ? does she not need to provide proof of insurance for her Schengen Visa ???

 

(each and every time my Wife (Thai) has applied for a Schengen visa, she has to purchase Travel Insurance... (even though she has better health / medical insurance cover). 

 

--------

 

I do agree with an element of the ‘onus of responsibility is on the traveller’.... Yet 'some' countries do so much to try and attract tourists, yet s£it on them from a great height when things go wrong...  IMO, this itself is wrong... IF countries want tourist, help protect them and look after them too.

 

 

 

 

[IvorBiggun2]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Emergency medical care should come first, foremost and above everything else and it should be free until the patent is safe enough to be moved home or another facility. 

This is Thailand Doh.

[torturedsole]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your Wife is Thai ? does she not need to provide proof of insurance for her Schengen Visa ???

 

(each and every time my Wife (Thai) has applied for a Schengen visa, she has to purchase Travel Insurance... (even though she has better health / medical insurance cover). 

 

--------

 

I do agree with an element of the ‘onus of responsibility is on the traveller’.... Yet 'some' countries do so much to try and attract tourists, yet s£it on them from a great height when things go wrong...  IMO, this itself is wrong... IF countries want tourist, help protect them and look after them too.

 

 

 

 

My wife travels on her British passport.

[IvorBiggun2]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

(each and every time my Wife (Thai) has applied for a Schengen visa, she has to purchase Travel Insurance... (even though she has better health / medical insurance cover). 

 

You can get travel insurance to come to Thailand but if you don't follow the rules everything is negated and this is why we're reading about these idiots now.

[Yellowtail]

How is a small rental operator in a tourist supposed to know if the license they are shown is even real? You can show the most anything. I gave a "license" I got from the Autopia ride at Disneyland to a police officer and he took it. 

 

If it's up the operator to check licenses or insurance, they'll be someone down the street selling licenses and insurance. 

 

Compelling the rental operators to carry insurance to cover medical would be a better strategy. Let the people renting motorcycles pay for it.