In reality, Thailand is not the LGBTQ+ paradise like it pretends to be

[save the frogs]

7 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

The idea that a sex change will provide an identity ignores the fact that they already have an identity.  The logic is thoroughly mutilated.  And the solution using this mutilated logic is to mutilate the human body.  The question is never asked why they reject their natural identity.  Why?

 

It's no doubt a boon for the medical complex.  Life long care will most likely be required.

Good post. I agree. 

 

I have nothing against gay people, but mutilating your body is a different matter. It's much more complex than sexual preferences.

[Pink Mist]

An off-topic post dragging California into the OP and a reply have been removed.  Stay on topic and stay civil 

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Not lies at all.  It's all well documented.  Your comment is strictly ad hominem.  Which is to say you can't argue on the merits of your POV.

Your comment was ad hominem.

[save the frogs]

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

The idea that a sex change will provide an identity ignores the fact that they already have an identity. 

Yes but in their minds, this identity is too common / normal.

They are seeking an identity that separates them from the average person.

They want to be unique. 

Like for instance, most people want to be famous ... because it separates you from the average person. 

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Good post. I agree. 

 

I have nothing against gay people, but mutilating your body is a different matter. It's much more complex than sexual preferences.

Obviously sexual orientation and gender identity are very different things.

Mutilation is deliberately a LOADED term.

Do you call it mutilation when a lady gets a breast enlargement?

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Yes but in their minds, this identity is too common / normal.

They are seeking an identity that separates them from the average person.

They want to be unique. 

Like for instance, most people want to be famous ... because it separates you from the average person. 

 

Interesting.

So you're an expert on the internal motivations of all trans people seeking gender affirming surgery?

 

Color me skeptical. Very.

[Jingthing]

31 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

I once read a magazine for teens and they were trying to convince the teens that a sex change will give them an identity.

Teens are being manipulated, in my opinion.

Also, surgeons are making a ton of money on these surgeries.

So yeah, I basically agree with you. 

 

I am assuming that if that article existed you probably have left out all of the context.

It's completely unbelievable that there was such an article in a teen magazine presented as you assert.

[save the frogs]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I am assuming that if that article existed you probably have left out all of the context.

It's completely unbelievable that there was such an article in a teen magazine presented as you assert.

I'll try to find the article. I don't remember the name of the magazine. 

[Jingthing]

Just now, save the frogs said:

I'll try to find the article. I don't remember the name of the magazine. 

Good luck with that.

[save the frogs]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Interesting.

So you're an expert on the internal motivations of all trans people seeking gender affirming surgery?

 

Color me skeptical. Very.

No, but my psychological assumptions are based on the psychology of that article I read. 

Or my interpretation of it.

 

Maybe it doesn't apply to all trans people. Maybe different trans people have different reasons. 

 

[Tippaporn]

8 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Good post. I agree. 

 

I have nothing against gay people, but mutilating your body is a different matter. It's much more complex than sexual preferences.

I don't think there is anything unnatural about homosexuality.  It's been with us throughout our history.  I've never had issues with gays.  As long as they didn't try to force themselves on me.  Again, live and let live.  But mutilating one's body to become trans has nothing to do with homosexuality.  It's due to an identity crisis.  I've heard some homosexuals are angry because they feel that the LGBQT+ movement has co-opted their movement and tied it in with theirs.  Some are not happy about it.

[save the frogs]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Obviously sexual orientation and gender identity are very different things.

Mutilation is deliberately a LOADED term.

Do you call it mutilation when a lady gets a breast enlargement?

Breast implants ... well mutilation implies complete removal. 

But ok, maybe mutilation is over the top. 

I'm not a huge fan of breast implants either, by the way. 

[Tippaporn]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Obviously sexual orientation and gender identity are very different things.

Mutilation is deliberately a LOADED term.

Do you call it mutilation when a lady gets a breast enlargement?

I would.

[save the frogs]

5 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

It's due to an identity crisis. 

Yeah, thats my theory too.

And the folks marketing this to teens are preying on this vulnerable period in their lives where they are going through an identity crisis. 

And ch-ching ch-ching ... the surgeons are raking it in. 

I'll try to find some articles to support this. 

 

[onthedarkside]

Before this topic again gets derailed, please discuss the topic OP which is:

 

In reality, Thailand is not the LGBTQ+ paradise like it pretends to be

 

It is not about Breast augmentation a common type of cosmetic surgery or anything outside the above

 

Your posts will be removed without further notice is you fail to pay attention to this post

[Jingthing]

This link appears to be a treasure trove of very on topic information strongly confirming the assertion that Thailand is NOT a paradise for LGBT Thais.

 

Interestingly it also appears to confirm contrary to a few responses here that there IS a Thai Buddhist belief that homosexuality is a negative karmic consequence. 

 

Buddhism matters as Thailand is one of the most religious nations on earth. Maybe the most!

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3039042/The-religious-countries-Earth-Thailand-place-56-U-S-saying-faith.html

 

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/museum/TAIWAN/md/md08-52.htm

 

Male Homosexuality and Transgenderism
in the Thai Buddhist Tradition

by Peter A. Jackson

 

In my 1995 book Dear Uncle Go: Male Homosexuality in Thailand I argued that popular Western perceptions of a general tolerance of homosexuality in Thailand are to an extent inaccurate. While there are no legal or formal sanctions against homosexuality in Thailand, a wide range of cultural sanctions operate to stigmatise Thai homosexual men and women. These anti-homosexual sanctions are diffused throughout Thai Society rather than being focussed in any clearly definable institution or set of homophobic practices, as has historically been the case in most Western societies.

[watthong]

Thank you, for getting back to the subject at hand:  for a gay man such as yours truly, who needs "LGBTQ+ paradise" when a typically hard-working (pre-covid) BKK gay bath-house, which is rather like a modern version of "Arabian Nights" aka "One thousand and One nights" - or shall I say, "afternoons" - any day of the week, is more than one can "handle..." That's what I love about the Thais, they go about everyday business without much fanfare. In short, they "deliver" without the fuss.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, watthong said:

Thank you, for getting back to the subject at hand:  for a gay man such as yours truly, who needs "LGBTQ+ paradise" when a typically hard-working (pre-covid) BKK gay bath-house, which is rather like a modern version of "Arabian Nights" aka "One thousand and One nights" - or shall I say, "afternoons" - any day of the week, is more than one can "handle..." That's what I love about the Thais, they go about everyday business without much fanfare. In short, they "deliver" without the fuss.

OK Thailand might have been or still is a "paradise" for gay EXPATS and TOURISTS but that's kind of side topic to what it's like for Thais.

[Tippaporn]

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This link appears to be a treasure trove of very on topic information strongly confirming the assertion that Thailand is NOT a paradise for LGBT Thais.

 

Interestingly it also appears to confirm contrary to a few responses here that there IS a Thai Buddhist belief that homosexuality is a negative karmic consequence. 

 

Buddhism matters as Thailand is one of the most religious nations on earth.

 

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/museum/TAIWAN/md/md08-52.htm

"This link appears to be a treasure trove of very on topic information strongly confirming the assertion that Thailand is NOT a paradise for LGBT Thais."

 

Well, cheers for that.

[Jingthing]

There is a clue in the quote before that might point to why so many f-rangs think life for Thai LGBTS is better than it actually is.

That is that westerners LGBT or straight know very well what homophobia is and we don't see very much overt Thai to Thai western style homophobia.

But as suggested the negative aspects for LGBT Thais manifest themselves in Thai ways that f-rangs may be blind to picking up.

Well it's a theory anyway!

[Jingthing]

About f-rangs perceiving western style homophobia in Buddhist Thailand, I neglected to consider that there are other religions here.

Dare I say that I've personally experienced some very obvious homophobia in Thailand, but it was in the south from Thai Muslims. Pretty much the same (bad) feeling as western homophobia.

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Interestingly it also appears to confirm contrary to a few responses here that there IS a Thai Buddhist belief that homosexuality is a negative karmic consequence. 

according to this, buddhism is not anti-gay. 

 

https://buddhaweekly.com/tibetan-buddhist-views-lgbtq-buddhism-accepting-neutral-supportive-alienating-lesbians-gay-men-trans-gendered-persons-sex-marriage/

 

The main reference in Sutra to sex is “sexual misconduct” which has nothing to do with sexual preference — only the way we treat our partner. 

 

[Jingthing]

52 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

according to this, buddhism is not anti-gay. 

 

https://buddhaweekly.com/tibetan-buddhist-views-lgbtq-buddhism-accepting-neutral-supportive-alienating-lesbians-gay-men-trans-gendered-persons-sex-marriage/

 

The main reference in Sutra to sex is “sexual misconduct” which has nothing to do with sexual preference — only the way we treat our partner. 

 

That's about TIBETAN Buddhism which is Mahāyāna Buddhism.

Thai Buddhism is Theravada.

Are Catholics the same as Mormons or Unitarians?

 

In any case if it is true that this is about karmic consequences in Thai Buddhism, that's not the same kind of "anti-gay" dogma that we see in the west.

 

Thailand really is a very different place for westerners.

 

Getting deeper than the superficial in Thailand is arguably a rare thing for westerners.

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Are Catholics the same as Mormons or Unitarians?

in some ways, but not all

[djayz]

What else do you want? 

[kwilco]

It doesn't pretend to be - it is Westerners who assume this just because they've seen a ladyboy. 

Westerners have a never-ending ability not to know what they are looking at.

[onthedarkside]

A post with an off topic photo of a pride parade in another country removed

[Jingthing]

TNT gets it!

 

Start at 13:40.

 

He correctly disses reactionary critics of the Pride parades as the Pride parades are a key vehicle to promote the civil rights that Thai LBGTQ people are lacking.

 

 

[Jingthing]

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I don't think there is anything unnatural about homosexuality.  It's been with us throughout our history.  I've never had issues with gays.  As long as they didn't try to force themselves on me.  Again, live and let live.  But mutilating one's body to become trans has nothing to do with homosexuality.  It's due to an identity crisis.  I've heard some homosexuals are angry because they feel that the LGBQT+ movement has co-opted their movement and tied it in with theirs.  Some are not happy about it.

No groups are monoliths!

None!

Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

There are always debates and disagreements wherever there are people of any kind involved.

As I was around during the early stages of the post Stonewall Gay Liberation movement I remember years of controversy about exactly how to include lesbians in the movement. Many lesbians wanted to be totally separate and no doubt many still do.

So this coalition grew organically over many years and controversy never goes away and never will.

LGBTQ don't have a democratic government on whether to include this group or that group.

I suppose there is a sort of consensus that a coalition of sexual orientation and or gender identity related minority groups is better just because of greater numbers so politicians might pay more attention because more votes are at stake. 

 

My personal opinion is that it would be very crappy to drop this or that specific group just because they are being more scapegoated than the other groups in some countries. 

 

Transgender people and drag queens even more so considering the origin story of the Stonewall Riots.

 

They won't be dropped unless they overwhelmingly choose to be dropped which they won't.

 

There is one exception that I'm aware of.

 

In the early years  of the movement a pro pedo group was allowed to participate in parades. There really weren't any filters. Any group could march. Obviously they should never have been allowed.

 

They were kicked out and I'm sure that there was overwhelming support for that!

 

[sharksy]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:30 AM, n00dle said:

see, 50 bargirls is my idea of hell. 

 

Go to a Gay venue then.  That would be my idea of hell