Lawyer says farang can own one property

[Duke007]

I just met with a local isaan lawyer and was told the law had changed and now a foreigner can own one property in Thailand. I have never heard this before. She also said I did not need a usufruct document because my thai girlfriend can simply leave the house to me in her Will. Should I be looking for a new lawyer?

[richard_smith237]

Has your lawyer also offered to consummate the relationship first... 

 

....  I've no idea what you look like... but, there is a saying... 'you can see 'em coming'...  I think they may have quoted the Thai equivalent....

 

Obvious scam... play them along and have some fun with it.

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by richard_smith237

[flyingtlger]

What's your lawyers name? 

Saul Goodman?

 

[scubascuba3]

Some lawyers will just guess if they don't know. I often hear stories from my lawyer friend which proves be very careful who you choose

[sanmyintmaung]

 

[gargamon]

Select foreigners? I wonder what that means?

 

I bet it means not you(or me)!

[lopburi3]

From my non lawyer understanding:

 

1.  You can own property - you can not own land (except in special investment case mentioned in thread).

2.  You can inherit land and property but it must be sold to a Thai within a year.

[proton]

6 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

From my non lawyer understanding:

 

1.  You can own property - you can not own land (except in special investment case mentioned in thread).

2.  You can inherit land and property but it must be sold to a Thai within a year.

I wonder what happens to it if it does not sell within a year?

[Callmeishmael]

I don't recall the details, but many years ago I heard that foreigners can own up to 1 Rai of land if they invest 40 million baht in an approved state enterprise or government bonds. 

[jvs]

3 minutes ago, Callmeishmael said:

I don't recall the details, but many years ago I heard that foreigners can own up to 1 Rai of land if they invest 40 million baht in an approved state enterprise or government bonds. 

Yes i believe that is true.

I also believe if i had that kind of money lying around i would by myself

a nice island some where.

 

[connda]

9 hours ago, Duke007 said:

I just met with a local isaan lawyer and was told the law had changed and now a foreigner can own one property in Thailand. I have never heard this before. She also said I did not need a usufruct document because my thai girlfriend can simply leave the house to me in her Will. Should I be looking for a new lawyer?

 

7 hours ago, flyingtlger said:

What's your lawyers name? 

Saul Goodman?

 

It's s'all good man!

[stratocaster]

When I used to do visa runs to Laos my hobby was letting the Russian estate agents in the van try to sell me property. One of the best spiels was how I can buy with a 90 year lease which was transferable to a family member who would get a new 90 year lease. Another one was that lots of Moo Bhans are registered as condos so 49% of the houses can be purchased in the foreigners quota.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Wow, so many wrong answers. Let me explain you few exceptions to land ownership and a new law since 2019.

 

1) there are exceptions to be able to own LAND in Thailand. For example, the BOI (board of investment in Thailand) can allow that. Another example is a decree that says 1 rai can be own with an investment of 40 million baht. That’s an old decree, but still valid and there are conditions. There are others laws and exceptions. I know one case where a foreigner got ownership or a land given by the king. Also, according to the land code, foreigners can inherit land but you need the permission of the authorities.p and they never give it, you have 180 days to 1 year to sell or transfer the property. Other exceptions about ownership of the land by foreigners are inside some laws (petroleum act, etc. But it is rare).

 

2) the lawyer was probably talking about rights of Sap Ing Sith. That was introduced in 2019. The owner of a property can provide rights of Sap Ing Sith to a foreigner for a maximum period of 30 years. The foreigner becomes a real owner. He can manage his property, even sublease without the right of the owner, and can even sell the balance of his right of Sap Ing .Sith. I wrote an article about it.

 

i do think it is a good alternative to a 30 years lease, for a foreigner that is 60 yo and older, and does not care who will inherit the property. It gives him peace of mind for 30 years. It cost 20,000 baht to register rights of Sap Ing Sith at the land department.

 

Most foreigners do not know about it because it was passed in 2019, before COVID and not many people talks about it.

 

Every foreigner has a different situation depending of his age, his investment, if he has a Thai partner, if he is legally married or not, if he wants his heirs foreign or Thai to enjoy the property and others. Some will decide to do a usufruct, some a lease, some rights of Sap Ing Sith (I guess this will be more and more popular and I can tell you that nobody was doing usufruct before 2008 when I wrote an extensive article about it). Other clients prefer to make a mortgage, which protects more the money. And others setup a company. Yes, I know about nominees and there are ways with joint venture and others. But companies are more expensive because of accounting and many factors. Rights of superficies are very interesting and rarely used. I normally include them in a lease lease when a property already have a ta bian baan but I would rather have superficies than a usufruct if the land is not developed, as a foreigner in Thailand. Except if it is for speculation or to sell in a short period of time.

[Isaan lawyers]

1 hour ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Wow, so many wrong answers. Let me explain you few exceptions to land ownership and a new law since 2019.

 

1) there are exceptions to be able to own LAND in Thailand. For example, the BOI (board of investment in Thailand) can allow that. Another example is a decree that says 1 rai can be own with an investment of 40 million baht. That’s an old decree, but still valid and there are conditions. There are others laws and exceptions. I know one case where a foreigner got ownership or a land given by the king. Also, according to the land code, foreigners can inherit land but you need the permission of the authorities.p and they never give it, you have 180 days to 1 year to sell or transfer the property. Other exceptions about ownership of the land by foreigners are inside some laws (petroleum act, etc. But it is rare).

 

2) the lawyer was probably talking about rights of Sap Ing Sith. That was introduced in 2019. The owner of a property can provide rights of Sap Ing Sith to a foreigner for a maximum period of 30 years. The foreigner becomes a real owner. He can manage his property, even sublease without the right of the owner, and can even sell the balance of his right of Sap Ing .Sith. I wrote an article about it.

 

i do think it is a good alternative to a 30 years lease, for a foreigner that is 60 yo and older, and does not care who will inherit the property. It gives him peace of mind for 30 years. It cost 20,000 baht to register rights of Sap Ing Sith at the land department.

 

Most foreigners do not know about it because it was passed in 2019, before COVID and not many people talks about it.

 

Every foreigner has a different situation depending of his age, his investment, if he has a Thai partner, if he is legally married or not, if he wants his heirs foreign or Thai to enjoy the property and others. Some will decide to do a usufruct, some a lease, some rights of Sap Ing Sith (I guess this will be more and more popular and I can tell you that nobody was doing usufruct before 2008 when I wrote an extensive article about it). Other clients prefer to make a mortgage, which protects more the money. And others setup a company. Yes, I know about nominees and there are ways with joint venture and others. But companies are more expensive because of accounting and many factors. Rights of superficies are very interesting and rarely used. I normally include them in a lease lease when a property already have a ta bian baan but I would rather have superficies than a usufruct if the land is not developed, as a foreigner in Thailand. Except if it is for speculation or to sell in a short period of time.

 

 

Thailawonline is correct  with their advice. I am the foreign affairs client manager for Isaan Lawyers (not the lawyers mentioned within the chain) We have registered Sap Ing Sith rights for clients, these rights afford more protections and have more advantages than usufruct or a standard lease, yes the right is only for 30 years but it is renewable and the client gains his own sap ing sith certificate together with their names on the title deed, thus it is a good option for some.

please see some information below and you can also read more here. https://isaanlawyers.com/usufruct-agreement-thailand

How can foreigners benefit from this right?

It can offer several benefits for foreigners who want to use land in Thailand . For example:

It can provide more security and flexibility than a leasehold right, as it can be transferred, mortgaged, and inherited without restrictions.

It can allow foreigners to use land for commercial or industrial purposes, which may not be possible under a leasehold right.

It can enable foreigners to enjoy the benefits of property ownership without having to set up a Thai company or rely on a Thai partner.

 It can reduce the legal risks and costs associated with other legal structures such as leasehold, usufruct, or ownership by a Thai company.

I hope this helps, for more visit www.isaanlawyers.com

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Wow, so many wrong answers. Let me explain you few exceptions to land ownership and a new law since 2019.

 

In this wall of text I did not see where is this exception that foreigner can own land. 30 year lease is not ownership no matter how you spin it.

[itsari]

32 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

In this wall of text I did not see where is this exception that foreigner can own land. 30 year lease is not ownership no matter how you spin it.

As the lawyer said , if you are 60 years or more 30 years is most probably adequate and it is renewable .

Long as you are not too concerned who the property will be left to on your death .

[ThaiLawOnline]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

In this wall of text I did not see where is this exception that foreigner can own land. 30 year lease is not ownership no matter how you spin it.

Sap Ing Sith is not a lease. It is ownership for 30 years. Limited but ownership.

 

Thailand is a mixed law country. Parts were based on civil law and parts on common, and on top, some customs like measures or land in rai.

 

i come from Quebec, another mixed law place which is kind of rare in the world. In Civil Law, property is divided in 3 parts. We call them in Latin “usus”, “fructus” and “abusus”. You understand that usufruct is the first two parts. So foreigners are allowed to have usufruct because it is not a full ownership and not forbidden by law. We call if a « démembrement » of property rights. That world would be translated like a « dismemberment »?

 

The “abusus” part is the right to sell, destroy, abuse. And Sap Ing Sith gives the right to sell. So it is full ownership but for a limited time and I imagine that depending on contract, you might have to give back the property in a certain way like you got it. But it is way better than a lease of 30 years.

 

When I read that foreigners can not own land in Thailand, I always think that :

- they can if allowed by the BOI.

- they can allowed by a decree if they invest 40 million baht

(these two are the most common, below is less common but do exist)

- they can in a majority foreign own Thai company in industrial estate by the state owned industrial estate Authority of Thailand 

- they can have the permission to own land granted by the petroleum concessionaires under the petroleum act

- they can of bank of financial institution that have become owned with the bank of Thailand consent, with some rules 

- some property funds licensed by the sec of Thailand can also have all their units owned by foreigner under some conditions.

- the land code allows foreigners to inherit if they get the permission. We know they don’t in reality, but it could.

- and I do not mention that it could be done by treaty but they don’t do it anymore even if the law allows it.

 

But instead, on forum, it is so easy to propagate the illusion that it is impossible and nothing change in Thailand…. Well it does change. Who could imagine 10 years ago that marijuana would be legal here? 
 

What is important for people investing in real estate in Thailand is to know what can be done, what are the benefits and disadvantages, and make a decision based on your situation. The OP was talking about a right to own land : Sap Ing Sith is one. Whatever you say, it exist. Just like buying a condominium is owning some real estate for foreigners and allowed to some conditions.

 

[TimeMachine]

Im feeling anxious about owning condo here in thailand now.  Future uncertain.  Anybody interested 850000 baht? Pattaya plaza condotel.  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

55 minutes ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Sap Ing Sith is one.

 

Can the two legal posters here clarify a few things on this method:

 

--Can Sap Ing Sith status be inherited prior to the expiration of the holder's original 30-year term, if the original holder passes away?

 

--Can Sap In Sith status be renewed for a 2nd 30 year term if the original acquirer was young enough at the outset, and the conveyor is willing?

 

--How, in practice, is this method typically being used in the RE market here?  Just by mixed families with a farang spouse?  Or are individual Thai property holders willing to "sell" this way?  Or are any housing developers "selling" their properties in this manner?

 

--How are the various Thai province Land Departments treating this method?  As a clearly established and allowed right, or one subject to their discretionary, and sometimes arbitrary, whims?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

i come from Quebec, another mixed law place which is kind of rare in the world

Funny thing. I landed in Montreal as a fresh new immigrant and from day 1 I could buy my own place even tho I could not speak a word of French. Four years later I sold it using a notary because as you know lawyers in Quebec do not handle real estate. The process was so easy and straightforward compated to even Ontario that to this day I regret selling that small condo in Plateau. 

 

No 30 year leases, no scummy company requiremements, no nothing. Just cash in hand from a dirty new immigrant. Yes, even Quebec which is considered a somewhat unfriendly place for immigrants due to language laws had the laws that firmly protected me.

 

The laws in Thailand only change for the worse. The marihuana law will soon be one of those laws too.

[Dickie Dee]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:10 AM, Duke007 said:

I just met with a local isaan lawyer and was told the law had changed and now a foreigner can own one property in Thailand. I have never heard this before. She also said I did not need a usufruct document because my thai girlfriend can simply leave the house to me in her Will. Should I be looking for a new lawyer?

As long as it floats. 

[ThaiLawOnline]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said::

 

--Can Sap Ing Sith status be inherited prior to the expiration of the holder's original 30-year term, if the original holder passes away?

 

--Can Sap In Sith status be renewed for a 2nd 30 year term if the original acquirer was young enough at the outset, and the conveyor is willing?

 

--How, in practice, is this method typically being used in the RE market here?  Just by mixed families with a farang spouse?  Or are individual Thai property holders willing to "sell" this way?  Or are any housing developers "selling" their properties in this manner?

 

--How are the various Thai province Land Departments treating this method?  As a clearly established and allowed right, or one subject to their discretionary, and sometimes arbitrary, whims?

 

Thanks!

 

I am not always here and busy tonight.  I will try to answer you quickly but not sure if I can check back the answer before few days.

1) inheritance: Yes. Same as a lease. Not a usufruct.

2) renewal : John Spooner says yes. I read the law and it is not clear compare to clause 540 CCCT which allows one renewal. But my personal opinion is yes. The way I would do it is to sign a declaration of intention under 168 of the civil code (if I remember correctly) that agrees to renew at the same conditions of for 50% of the full price already paid. So renewal is prepaid. The declaration of intention has a retroactive effect by law and binds the heirs. That’s how I would do it but I need to search more on the Sap Ing Sith. I know John Spooner registered the first in Nakhon Ratchasima province and I might register one in Kanchanaburi soon. It is not confirmed. Any contract unless clearly specifies and against public order can be renewed in civil law. We say the contract is the law between the parties. And for me, the declaration of intention would solidify that renewal. I also do it for leases. The Thai lawyers that John worked with made a search about it. I personally made my own search but did not double check with land departments. The declaration of intention to renew is never shown to the land department and I use an addendum to the lease for the renewal for also some personal reasons. You want to avoid the land department to refuse your contracts.

3) I think this is kind of new. When I started to make usufructs in 2006, nobody was doing usufruct. There was an English lawyer name William on teskdoor that wrote about a little. I read the civil code entirely, maybe 2-3 times in 2006-2008. I asked a Thai lawyer working with us what he thought about usufruct. He never did one, we registered the first in about 30-50 land department and it was hard at the beginning. We had to show the land department how to do it. One of our lawyer has a copy of the land department books about how to do contracts there. So we explained them. It became easier and easier especially after 2010. My guess, this will be the same for that. I doubt Thai people will use it between them. It will be more useful for foreigners.

4) if you know Thailand, there is always discretionary rights. You have to be nice, smile, ask to help, etc. If they refuse and you know the judicial system, think « the administrative court ». They are over all government agencies and quite powerful. It is over the land departments, labour departments, immigration or police. Discretion and arbitrary are different.
 

i sued twice immigration at the administrative court and I won twice. I was the plaintiff and one was under an emergency request that was granted 

 

Unless they can prove that someone is illegal, or not provided as requested by the law, my opinion that they can not refuse. In the first years I was doing usufruct, I was preparing the Thai owner to understand what was a usufruct. The directors of land department were often trying to make her change her mind as they thought it was giving too much rights to the foreigner…. This is not a joke. I saw it at least 10 times in land departments.

 

 

Sebastien.