American and British music

[UKok]

I saw this on twitter this morning. I am a Brit and I feel this is unfair. 

[Purdey]

Well, did the British copy blues and rock from America or not? 

[Woof999]

Now the Yanks know how we feel about them ripping off and bastardising our language.

[Baht Simpson]

In fact it was the blues performers themselves who brought their influence to Europe starting in 1962 with the American Folk Blues Festival. The promise of work and good money lured them away from the U.S where they had been marginalized.  

 

Performers included

 

 Muddy Waters, Sonny Boy Williamson, John Lee Hooker, Sippie Wallace, T-Bone Walker, Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee, Memphis Slim, Otis Rush, Lonnie Johnson, Eddie Boyd, Big Walter Horton, Junior Wells, Big Joe Williams, Mississippi Fred McDowell, Willie Dixon, Otis Spann, Big Mama Thornton, Bukka White, Jimmy Reed, Howlin' Wolf (with a band made up of Sunnyland Slim, Hubert Sumlin, Willie Dixon and drummer Clifton James), Champion Jack Dupree, Son House, Armand "Jump" Jackson, Skip James, Sleepy John Estes, Little Brother Montgomery, Victoria Spivey, J. B. Lenoir, Little Walter, Carey Bell, Louisiana Red, Lightnin' Hopkins, Joe Turner, Buddy Guy, Magic Sam, Lee Jackson, Matt "Guitar" Murphy, Roosevelt Sykes, Doctor Ross, Koko Taylor, Hound Dog Taylor, Archie Edwards,[3] Helen Humes and Sugar Pie DeSanto.

- Source Wikipedia

 

Many local performers like Jimmy Page, Stevie Winwood, Clapton and Peter Green got to perform in backing bands for them and developed a love for the blues which they took into their own work. It was just a progression.

 

 

 

 

[Baht Simpson]

This sort of thing only happens in Rock and Blues. No one says Walton copied classical music from Mozart.   ???? 

[Trippy]

Nothing wrong with copying a style of music, and making it their own.

Most of the great rock bands were British. Beatles, Who, Stones, Led Zep, etc.

 

[Baht Simpson]

For reference on how the blues artists felt about it there's a story about Bobby Womack. He was asked permission for a new British group to cover his "It's All Over Now."  

 

Initially he refused saying that he didn't think some British band would do it justice. Then they told him this band were the hottest new thing and sold singles by the million and he stood to make a fortune in royalties and he shouted "Give it to them!!"

 

So the performers themselves profited both in cash and fame from the Brits involvement.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Baht Simpson

[Trippy]

13 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Now the Yanks know how we feel about them ripping off and bastardising our language.

How did we rip off a language? We needed to read and speak english to understand and pay the tax bill coming from the UK.

You want to talk about rip offs, Pattaya was popularised by the Yanks, but now it's like little Britain. 

[hotandsticky]

29 minutes ago, Trippy said:

Pattaya was popularised by the Yanks, but now it's like little Britain. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

A definite improvement.

Edited July 2, 2023 by hotandsticky

[spidermike007]

Everyone is inspired by something or someone. There is no such thing as an original idea. All ideas emanate from somewhere. Everything has been thought before. We simply don't know it. 

[Stocky]

It's a two way street.

[Kenny202]

I think Kieth Richards would be the first to admit they were totally influenced by American blues. I wouldn't say ripped off though as their end product is much different. The Stones in particularly did a lot for the old school  black blues guys and brought their music to a wider audience, not to mention a much better pay packet. Much of what is written in that article total rubbish. Rock and roll definitely originated in the US but only became mainstream when the white Americans also copied from Afro.Americans lol. A softened down white version. So for white Americans or Brits claiming one stole the others music is ludicrous. Thank god all.artists are influenced by those who came before and create something completely fresh ????

[worgeordie]

Yes  the British groups copied rhythm and blues from Black American  musicians ,

made it their own , and made it more acceptable for Americans with them been

white ,  

glad to be alive and around music in the 60 's ,early 70's , some great sounds ,

today's music does not appeal to me at all .

 

regards Worgeordie

 

 

[Baht Simpson]

21 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Everyone is inspired by something or someone. There is no such thing as an original idea. All ideas emanate from somewhere. Everything has been thought before. We simply don't know it. 

Indeed, in folk music doing your own version of a traditional tune is seen as a rite of passage. There are hundreds of versions of  Matty Groves and Tam Lin in a myriad of styles. As Martin Carty said, once people stop copying that's when the music dies.

[ChipButty]

I was around them days in the early 60's soul and Motown I would say they was more popular in the UK than they ever were in America, one of the main venues for them was in Manchester at the Twisted Wheel, 

1964 i saw Stevie Wonder playing in Manchester then known as "Little Stevie Wonder" 

Marvin Gaye we all remember him "Heard it through the Grapevine" that first got played on a demo disc in a night club in Coventry by a DJ i used to know, true story that demo disc could have ended up in the bin, 

[bignok]

1 hour ago, UKok said:

am a Brit and I feel this is unfair. 

Nothinh to do with you.

[ChipButty]

1 hour ago, Baht Simpson said:

For reference on how the blues artists felt about it there's a story about Bobby Womack. He was asked permission for a new British group to cover his "It's All Over Now."  

 

 

The Valentinos was an American family R&B group from Cleveland, Ohio, best known for launching the careers of brothers Bobby Womack and Cecil Womack. Bobby went on to find greater fame as a solo artist while Cecil became successful as a member of the husband and wife duo of Womack & Womack with Linda Cooke. The group was well known for R&B hits such as the original versions of "Lookin' for a Love", notably covered by the J. Geils Band and later a solo hit for Bobby Womack, and "It's All Over Now", covered by the Rolling Stones.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

Americans are a bit like the Chinese? They invented everything.????

[ChipButty]

19 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Americans are a bit like the Chinese? They invented everything.????

And Twice as BIG 

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, Purdey said:

Well, did the British copy blues and rock from America or not? 

Yep. Same way white Americans copied it from black Americans. 

[ThailandTimeZone]

Nice seeing that old picture of the Grateful Dead ???? in the post image. 

 

 

[Plern]

3 hours ago, Purdey said:

Well, did the British copy blues and rock from America or not? 

555 yeah, Led Zeppelin literally did just that

[xtrnuno41]

Well for that mater about copying.

johann pachelbel's canon in d major, man lived 1653-1706

 

There are soooooooooo many guitar players, bands, orchestra's copied and made their own version.

 

See this amazing woman doing Beethoven, well at least she copied and made own version. It puts Beethoven in another way.

 

[Plern]

As a murkan I must say I love each nation for the artists it's given me over my lifetime. Probably my most favorite artists of all time were actually UK but the larger number of bands that I liked in general are American.

 

 

Everybody in music gonna borrow and sample.

[KhunLA]

I don't know about the others, but for Cream & Clapton, surely royalties were paid.

 

For Robert Johnson, don't know if it trickled down to him, as he doesn't even own the rights to his songs, for what ever reason:   "Robert Johnson's material, recordings and songwriting, are owned by King of Spades Music USA"

 

He possibly signed over his music rights for promotional support, as so many artists do in their early career.

 

Johnson career was very short, and only recorded 29 songs in 2 sessions.  Obviously not all penned by him.

 

Not until after his death were they even released, I think, and he like so many, became the myth, not the legend since an early death.

 

Recording companies dealt the recording rights and royalties, not the artist, or not until the artist takes control of their career: ... "Music royalties from Cream's recordings would have been administered by ASCAP or BMI, through the accounting of the Atlantic Records group."

 

Clapton still doesn't produce and never did, I think.  Closely overseas it of course, trusting a few long time associates/producers.  But in his autobiography, he says he sucks at producing, and leaves it to the pros ????

 

EC did a whole album of Johnson's music, so I'm pretty sure he'd make sure royalties trickled down to the Johnson Estate.

 

Same with his friendship and sharing music of JJ Cale.

 

Can't ask for anything better than an artist making a hit with you song, and now you're a household name.  That's priceless by itself.

 

So man writers didn't become music artist, until the music was covered by others.   Many making more money on royalties than their own career I would think.

Edited July 2, 2023 by KhunLA

[ThailandTimeZone]

"white people ought to understand their job is to give people the blues, not to get them... and certainly not to sing or play them"

- George Carlin

 

[Baht Simpson]

If the blues artists started out today singing about their hard lives and how their baby done them wrong they'd be called snowflakes and told to grow a pair.

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

If the blues artists started out today singing about their hard lives and how their baby done them wrong they'd be called snowflakes and told to grow a pair.

or cancelled for being sexist 

[jvs]

Yes some one said once"It is had to write the blues in the back of a limo"

Also without classical music there would be no modern music,so many licks

i hear i can find also in a classical piece.

Not much new music,just well found and well disguised.

 

[Purdey]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Well for that mater about copying.

johann pachelbel's canon in d major, man lived 1653-1706

 

There are soooooooooo many guitar players, bands, orchestra's copied and made their own version.

 

See this amazing woman doing Beethoven, well at least she copied and made own version. It puts Beethoven in another way.

 

Saw an interview where Ritchie Blackmore joked he took Beethoven's 5th and played it backwards.