France to ban female students from wearing abayas in state schools

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I believe it has already been done- no crucifixes allowed in public schools in France...

 

People are NOT being forced to be secular- they can be as religious as they like. But when getting educated at government funded schools, they must all equally conform to non religious standards. 

Not true. As I pointed out, Sikhs have been given an exception to wear turbans. Which are not exactly unnoticeable. And it's also permitted to wear small crosses and crucifixes.

[candide]

7 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Nope! What I'm saying is that France should back off with the needless Islam bashing! All they're doing is make more enemies and for what? What exactly is the point of banning that loose-fitting garment in schools? There's no reason for it. Its just a big fat middlefinger! 

 

Don't get me wrong,  I'm all for governments and judicial systems to be secular, but people don't have to be secular. I don't see them making a move on banning Christians from coming to school without their beloved cross pendant around the neck! In my opinion, if they wanna go down that road then it should apply to all religions and not just Islam! Hence, it's a big fat middlefinger! 

There's no Islam bashing. It's the same for other religions. No Kippa, no big cross weared above clothes, etc... As I explained in a previous post, it's an adaptation of a rule established long before Muslims settled in France.

Actually, the whole French secular doctrine has been established against the dominance of the Catholic Church.

[candide]

28 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not true. As I pointed out, Sikhs have been given an exception to wear turbans. Which are not exactly unnoticeable. And it's also permitted to wear small crosses and crucifixes.

The Sikh turban is certainly not allowed in public schools.

 

As to religions signs, the law only prohibits conspicuous (ostensible) signs.

So small jewel crosses are allowed, same as small Muslim or Jewish religious signs ( they are usually weared under garments).

Edited August 30, 2023 by candide

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, candide said:

The Sikh turban is certainly not allowed in public schools.

 

As to religions signs, the law only prohibits conspicuous (ostensible) signs.

So small jewel crosses are allowed, same as small Muslim or Jewish religious signs ( they are usually weared under garments).

Well, earlier I found this:

I tracked it down to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07393148.2014.995396?needAccess=true

Unfortunately, only an abstract is available.

""In addition, the law is seen by some as disproportionately affecting Muslims, arguing that Christians rarely wear oversized crosses, and Sikhs have successfully lobbied to be able to wear a simple under-turban, whereas Jews have greater opportunities to enroll children in private Jewish religious schools owing to their long presence in the country."

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools}

 

I tracked it down to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07393148.2014.995396?needAccess=true

Unfortunately, only an abstract is available.

 

Anyway, I've looked elsewhere and I see nothing to support her claims. So, it's clear I got it wrong. Thanks for the correction.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Are you doing the same in Thailand ?

   Have you forfeiting your own Western culture and fully immersed yourself in Thai Culture ?

  Speaking and reading fluent Thai and Wai ing at appropriate times , always smiling and driving like  lunatic ?

   Have you fully immersed yourself in Thai culture ?

 

LOL. A farang that has to front up every year and jump through ever more idiotic requirements just to remain in LOS can not be compared to immigrants to western countries that are allowed to remain as though they were born there. The only way a farang can get PR is to conform to strict criteria, which is hardly the case for someone that arrives on a leaky boat and claims to have been treated badly back home.

[candide]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, earlier I found this:

I tracked it down to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07393148.2014.995396?needAccess=true

Unfortunately, only an abstract is available.

""In addition, the law is seen by some as disproportionately affecting Muslims, arguing that Christians rarely wear oversized crosses, and Sikhs have successfully lobbied to be able to wear a simple under-turban, whereas Jews have greater opportunities to enroll children in private Jewish religious schools owing to their long presence in the country."

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools}

 

I tracked it down to here

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07393148.2014.995396?needAccess=true

Unfortunately, only an abstract is available.

 

Anyway, I've looked elsewhere and I see nothing to support her claims. So, it's clear I got it wrong. Thanks for the correction.

 

There has been a long debate about the Sikh turban and the "Conseil d'Etat" estimated that even the under-turban should be considered as conspicuous.

Practically, it's true that it mainly affects Muslims as they are the only ones imposing to wear conspicuous signs (on girls only, which is another issue).

The spirit of the law can be easily examplified: when you look at kids playing in the schoolyard, you cannot distinguish one religion from the others.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Don't get me wrong,  I'm all for governments and judicial systems to be secular, but people don't have to be secular. I don't see them making a move on banning Christians from coming to school without their beloved cross pendant around the neck! In my opinion, if they wanna go down that road then it should apply to all religions and not just Islam! Hence, it's a big fat middlefinger! 

Foot and mouth come to mind with that statement.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/29/france-abaya-ban-schools-secularism/

Secularism is a key concept in its constitution, and religious markers considered conspicuous or “ostentatious,” including Islamic headscarves, large Christian crosses and Jewish yarmulkes, have been banned from public schools since 2004 under French law.

[placeholder]

One of the problems with this strict enforcement is that it can drive students to religious schools. Even though France claims to be committed to laicism, it does subsidize religion-based  private schools which are free to dictate what students wear.

 

2022 Report on International Religious Freedom: France

"By law, the government subsidizes private schools, including those affiliated with religious organizations. In 98 percent of private schools, in accordance with the law, the government pays the teachers’ salaries, provided the school accepts all children regardless of their religious affiliation... T

Parents who wish their children to wear conspicuous religious symbols or to receive religious instruction may homeschool their children or send them to a private school."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/france/#:~:text=By law%2C the government subsidizes,regardless of their religious affiliation.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

There has been a long debate about the Sikh turban and the "Conseil d'Etat" estimated that even the under-turban should be considered as conspicuous.

Practically, it's true that it mainly affects Muslims as they are the only ones imposing to wear conspicuous signs (on girls only, which is another issue).

The spirit of the law can be easily examplified: when you look at kids playing in the schoolyard, you cannot distinguish one religion from the others.

Well, it mainly effects Muslims because there are a lot more of them. But in percentage terms, at least in public schools, it will effect Sikh boys just as much.

[youreavinalaff]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. A farang that has to front up every year and jump through ever more idiotic requirements just to remain in LOS can not be compared to immigrants to western countries that are allowed to remain as though they were born there. The only way a farang can get PR is to conform to strict criteria, which is hardly the case for someone that arrives on a leaky boat and claims to have been treated badly back home.

Really? Would you care to elaborate on your knowledge of the asylum system? No criteria?

[candide]

26 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, it mainly effects Muslims because there are a lot more of them. But in percentage terms, at least in public schools, it will effect Sikh boys just as much.

In particular as it is really a "sacred" issue for Sikhs. For Muslims, it's not absolutely mandatory. 

[candide]

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

One of the problems with this strict enforcement is that it can drive students to religious schools. Even though France claims to be committed to laicism, it does subsidize religion-based  private schools which are free to dictate what students wear.

 

2022 Report on International Religious Freedom: France

"By law, the government subsidizes private schools, including those affiliated with religious organizations. In 98 percent of private schools, in accordance with the law, the government pays the teachers’ salaries, provided the school accepts all children regardless of their religious affiliation... T

Parents who wish their children to wear conspicuous religious symbols or to receive religious instruction may homeschool their children or send them to a private school."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/france/#:~:text=By law%2C the government subsidizes,regardless of their religious affiliation.

Practically, it's the opposite happening. In districts with a significant number of families originating from immigration (mainly Muslims), parents tend to leave public schools because there are too many kids of foreign origin, and send their kids to private schools.

It's a big problem as it doesn't help integration.

[pacovl46]

7 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Not too different to the Taliban/Iran forcing girls to  wear the headscarf's .

   Its both telling girls what they have to wear .

The West is supposed to be tolerant 

And both are wrong to do so. But, if a female Muslim wants to wear a headscarf they should be able to do so.

Edited August 30, 2023 by pacovl46

[pacovl46]

4 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I believe it has already been done- no crucifixes allowed in public schools in France...

 

People are NOT being forced to be secular- they can be as religious as they like. But when getting educated at government funded schools, they must all equally conform to non religious standards. 

I'm not talking about the cross on the classroom wall. I'm alking about the cross around their necks. They're still allowed! 

[pacovl46]

2 hours ago, candide said:

There's no Islam bashing. It's the same for other religions. No Kippa, no big cross weared above clothes, etc... As I explained in a previous post, it's an adaptation of a rule established long before Muslims settled in France.

Actually, the whole French secular doctrine has been established against the dominance of the Catholic Church.

 

I'm a flaming atheist, but all this secular <deleted> does is pissing people off and there will be consequences. 

[pacovl46]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Foot and mouth come to mind with that statement.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/29/france-abaya-ban-schools-secularism/

Secularism is a key concept in its constitution, and religious markers considered conspicuous or “ostentatious,” including Islamic headscarves, large Christian crosses and Jewish yarmulkes, have been banned from public schools since 2004 under French law.

Oh, so small crosses around one's neck are still allowed then? The whole issue is just stupid All it does is creating animosity! 

Edited August 30, 2023 by pacovl46

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Oh, so small crosses around one's neck arw still allowed then? The whole issue is just stupid All it does is creating animosity! 

LOL. Try entering Saudi with Christian symbols in evidence and you might find that France's ban is moderate in comparison.

Can't wear such anywhere in public and women are forced to wear the abaya when in public.

Why do the woke liberals only criticize western countries?

[mikeymike100]

7 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Oh, so small crosses around one's neck are still allowed then? The whole issue is just stupid All it does is creating animosity! 

Small crosses are allowed but must be covered up, so they cannot be seen!

[mikeymike100]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Try entering Saudi with Christian symbols in evidence and you might find that France's ban is moderate in comparison.

Can't wear such anywhere in public and women are forced to wear the abaya when in public.

Why do the woke liberals only criticize western countries?

Yes indeed, in fact try taking a Bible into KSA, its going to ruin your entire day!

[Felton Jarvis]

Good move. Keep your religion out of my face.

[Felton Jarvis]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

One of the problems with this strict enforcement is that it can drive students to religious schools. Even though France claims to be committed to laicism, it does subsidize religion-based  private schools which are free to dictate what students wear.

 

2022 Report on International Religious Freedom: France

"By law, the government subsidizes private schools, including those affiliated with religious organizations. In 98 percent of private schools, in accordance with the law, the government pays the teachers’ salaries, provided the school accepts all children regardless of their religious affiliation... T

Parents who wish their children to wear conspicuous religious symbols or to receive religious instruction may homeschool their children or send them to a private school."

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/france/#:~:text=By law%2C the government subsidizes,regardless of their religious affiliation.

Religious schools are exactly where religion belongs. Muslims are not going to “assimilate” anyway, so they might as well be “driven” to religious schools. Not sure what to do about the Sikh thing.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Felton Jarvis

[placnx]

3 hours ago, candide said:

There's no Islam bashing. It's the same for other religions. No Kippa, no big cross weared above clothes, etc... As I explained in a previous post, it's an adaptation of a rule established long before Muslims settled in France.

Actually, the whole French secular doctrine has been established against the dominance of the Catholic Church.

It's true that after the Revolution religion, basically Catholicism, was relegated (hopefully) to obscurity. Church property was confiscated. There was even a new calendar.

 

What goes on today has nothing to do with that kind of secularism. Now it is for political reasons to grab votes from Marine Le Pen's followers.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Practically, it's the opposite happening. In districts with a significant number of families originating from immigration (mainly Muslims), parents tend to leave public schools because there are too many kids of foreign origin, and send their kids to private schools.

It's a big problem as it doesn't help integration.

Sounds like the southern US.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Try entering Saudi with Christian symbols in evidence and you might find that France's ban is moderate in comparison.

Can't wear such anywhere in public and women are forced to wear the abaya when in public.

Why do the woke liberals only criticize western countries?

It's about hypocrisy.

[placnx]

1 hour ago, mikeymike100 said:

Yes indeed, in fact try taking a Bible into KSA, its going to ruin your entire day!

Really? Last time I went there - no baggage inspection.

[mikeymike100]

13 minutes ago, placnx said:

Really? Last time I went there - no baggage inspection.

Yes, last time i was there, 2016,  all bags are checked by x ray machine, they don't open all the luggage like they used to years ago! They are really looking for booze, I suspect, but anything looking suspicious they will open your luggage.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. A farang that has to front up every year and jump through ever more idiotic requirements just to remain in LOS can not be compared to immigrants to western countries that are allowed to remain as though they were born there. 

The kids in question, the ones wearing the headscarf in France , those "immigrants" quite probably WERE born in France and there Parents  may have been born in France and even some of their Grand parents may have been born in France .

   Immigrants to Thailand  can indeed get Thai citizenship , although Thailand isn't a Country that has encouraged immigration from abroad, like Western Countries have dome 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 The only way a farang can get PR is to conform to strict criteria, which is hardly the case for someone that arrives on a leaky boat and claims to have been treated badly back home.

We are talking about France , those "leaky boats" depart from France , rather than arrive there , although considering the current state of the UK, I would be surprised if some start going in the other direction ????

[scottiejohn]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

The kids in question, the ones wearing the headscarf in France , those "immigrants" quite probably WERE born in France

I think you mean "may have been born in France"!

To emphasise "quite probably WERE born in France" is totally misleading!

You do not know if they were or were not! 

 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

We are talking about France , those "leaky boats" depart from France , rather than arrive there , although considering the current state of the UK, I would be surprised if some start going in the other direction ????

Day 7.........

How do you know the inflated rubber boats are leaky....?  ????

 

If they know "your" current state of the UK, why would they leave French shores in the first place...? ????