Norwegian Embassy in Bangkok: New income documentation requirements

[Liverpool Lou]

8 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Regulation or Federal Law?  If it is Federal Law under what statue?

No statues [sic] are required.

[Liverpool Lou]

9 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

I was at one time a California Commissioned Notary so I know a little something about Notarizing documents.

But you don't know the difference between a "statue" and a "statute"!

[sqwakvfr]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

But you don't know the difference between a "statue" and a "statute"!

Ok.  You got me. Spelling error.  I did not realize you were the grammar and spelling enforcement officer on this forum?   

Edited September 3, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[BusyB]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:47 AM, BritScot said:

More fool the Norwegian embassy or maybe the numbers are small so easy to verify the documents provided or they are not bothering. It was not the embassies that caused this but the Thai government by wanting each embassy to check and verify each financial claim this would cost in time money and slow to a crawl every application for verification. 

At the German embassy you show your pension statement from the pensions authority, and they issue a nice looking certificate, stamped and signed by the consul, stating you get above 65000 a month income. What noone tells you until you submit it to immigration is that you need a 'verification' stamp on it from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Immigration will waive that for a (ridiculous and hefty) 'fee'.

 

Do the footwork instead guys. 

 

Why the Brits or anyone else can't do that is beyond me.

Edited September 3, 2023 by BusyB

[JimGant]

On 9/2/2023 at 3:44 PM, scubascuba3 said:

Isn't that the point of the original story, can no longer get a retirement extension using transfers of 65k+ a month? instead have to get income document 

The original story is, if you want an annual income letter from the Norwegian Embassy for your retirement extension in Thailand, you can no longer just provide a monthly income statement and have the Norwegian authorities multiply by 12 to arrive at an annual income statement.

 

But there's nothing requiring a Norwegian to get an annual income letter from the embassy to provide to Thai Immigration. Instead, especially if they can't prove an annual income of the amount required, they can go the 800/400k baht in the bank route -- or the 65k baht per month sent to Thailand -- just like the rest of us. In the latter case, Thai authorities have no way of knowing, under current policy, what kind of "income" this is. Instead, they're completely happy to know and see that it's a "positive cash flow." They don't care if it's earned income, unearned income, money from your savings account, or a gift from Aunt Matilda. In fact, they're probably happier seeing a positive cash flow into Thailand -- than seeing an income letter that shows gross income -- but doesn't show that it's negative cash flow, after taxes, mortgage, and alimony.

[sandyf]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:17 AM, OJAS said:

Well, at least the Norwegian Embassy are still providing an income confirmation service for their expats, in stark contrast to their American, Australian and British counterparts! Makes me seriously wonder why that particular trio of embassies were unable to come up with similar documentary requirements, instead of merely hoisting the white flag of surrender by throwing their arms up in the air and pulling the plug.

 

As far as the British Embassy was concerned I am fairly sure it was a convenient excuse to shed the workload with a chunk of the staff going to India, those left behind may have had to actually do something.

[statman78]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:17 AM, OJAS said:

Well, at least the Norwegian Embassy are still providing an income confirmation service for their expats, in stark contrast to their American, Australian and British counterparts! Makes me seriously wonder why that particular trio of embassies were unable to come up with similar documentary requirements, instead of merely hoisting the white flag of surrender by throwing their arms up in the air and pulling the plug.

 

Being a US citizen here in Thailand with a retirement extension I love the fact that I don’t need an income letter from my embassy.  I simply go to my bank, get a 12 month statement, highlight the monthly transfers and present it to immigration along with a bank letter and a copy of my bank book.  No issues and no need to travel to Bangkok or the consulate in Chiang Mai.  
 

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, statman78 said:

Being a US citizen here in Thailand with a retirement extension I love the fact that I don’t need an income letter from my embassy.  I simply go to my bank, get a 12 month statement, highlight the monthly transfers and present it to immigration along with a bank letter and a copy of my bank book.  No issues and no need to travel to Bangkok or the consulate in Chiang Mai.  
 

And do you pay tax to Thailand, or do you solely transfer founds more than one year old?

[Liverpool Lou]

17 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

22 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

But you don't know the difference between a "statue" and a "statute"!

Ok.  You got me. Spelling error.  I did not realize you were the grammar and spelling enforcement officer on this forum? 

I'm not, that's why I made no reference to spelling or grammar.  How was I to know that you, allegedly, made a "spelling error" as opposed to a completely wrong statement as a self-aggrandising ex-California Commissioned Notary?!

Edited September 4, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[OJAS]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:26 AM, foreverlomsak said:

The British Embassy used to ask the applicant for current documents to prove their income, then came the requirement for the Embassy to "guarantee the submitted documents", as the Embassy argued that they do not have the resources or data access to verify the submissions, this was what caused the withdrawal from issuing letters, and hence where we are today.

Looks like the Norwegians are prepared to go that extra step.

As I pointed out to the Embassy at the time, all that the "extra step" to which you refer should involve for them would be to enter our NI number into a secure online link which they had established with HMRC in order to check that whatever supporting docs we had provided for our income confirmation letters in the form of latest tax returns or P60's matched HMRC's latest records (although P60's are issued by our pension providers, they are required to notify these to HMRC as part of their payroll obligations). A task which should normally take 5 seconds max per income confirmation request to accomplish, plus a further couple of seconds to plonk a suitable stamp for Immigration purposes on our supporting docs, I would have thought.

 

Whilst it would not, of course, be possible for the Embassy to verify future (but only historical) income on this basis, the same is equally true in the case of their Norwegian counterpart according to the OP.

 

On 9/2/2023 at 2:47 PM, BritScot said:

More fool the Norwegian embassy or maybe the numbers are small so easy to verify the documents provided or they are not bothering. It was not the embassies that caused this but the Thai government by wanting each embassy to check and verify each financial claim this would cost in time money and slow to a crawl every application for verification. 

Can't speak for the American and Australian embassies, but, as far as their British counterpart is concerned, all that I can say is that, if they consider their officers to be incapable of conducting quick and simple verification checks taking a handful of seconds in each case, it isn't exactly complimentary about said officers' level of intelligence, is it?

 

[sqwakvfr]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I'm not, that's why I made no reference to spelling or grammar.  How was I to know that you, allegedly, made a "spelling error" as opposed to a completely wrong statement as a self-aggrandising ex-California Commissioned Notary?!

Wow, You know me so well,  I believe it is spelled "aggrandizing".  But you are the expert so I could be wrong.  Also why would a monument to a dead or living person be related to this subject matter.  I made a spelling error.  I should have typed statute versus statue.  For making this error I apologize to all who have been offended. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by sqwakvfr

[statman78]

8 hours ago, Hummin said:

And do you pay tax to Thailand, or do you solely transfer founds more than one year old?

I transfer funds that are more than 1 year old.  The money comes from my IRA

[ChicagoExpat]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:14 AM, sqwakvfr said:

So the Norwegian Embassy accepts Tax documents to prove income.   Last year a rep from the US Consulate in Chiang Mai was asked why the US Embassy will not provide income certificates the response was “there is no central database of incomes in the US like European countries”.  Even then I called “BS”.  The US Embassy/Consulate in Thailand is the most useless entity for Americans in Thailand.   The useless people at the US Embassy do not realize the $$ making of potential of verifying and certifying incomes for Americans who file tax returns.  Heck they could charge $100 for such a service.  The US State Department is.a Bureaucracy.  The only things that change in a bureaucracy are the names and faces.  When Clown Ambassador Gödel is gone a new talking head will be appointed.  As an American I can call any US government employee a Clown because I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights. 

So, your argument is you WANT to have to go to the Embassy and pay $50 for a worthless piece of paper?  You WANT them to scam the public by charging as much as they want so you can cough up a stamped letter?  What the Americans and Brits have done is called "BS" on Thai immigration insanity and said they won't play their game anymore, as they can't verify Joe Blow's income.  Good on them.

 

We're all a bunch of crabby old guys who hate everyone, but even we should be able to see that REDUCING Thai crap rather than ENCOURAGING it is a service to everyone.

[sqwakvfr]

19 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

So, your argument is you WANT to have to go to the Embassy and pay $50 for a worthless piece of paper?  You WANT them to scam the public by charging as much as they want so you can cough up a stamped letter?  What the Americans and Brits have done is called "BS" on Thai immigration insanity and said they won't play their game anymore, as they can't verify Joe Blow's income.  Good on them.

 

We're all a bunch of crabby old guys who hate everyone, but even we should be able to see that REDUCING Thai crap rather than ENCOURAGING it is a service to everyone.

Crap?  I said certain incomes are readily verifiable.  Government pension pay is probably the easiest income to verify. If this is crap then so be it.  If the Thai Government wants incomes verified by an Embassy/Consulate then it is now “BS

[ChicagoExpat]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:59 AM, sqwakvfr said:

Crap?  I said certain incomes are readily verifiable.  Government pension pay is probably the easiest income to verify. If this is crap then so be it.  If the Thai Government wants incomes verified by an Embassy/Consulate then it is now “BS

But you were told they weren't readily verifiable, so the premise of your argument falls apart.  Uncle Sam isn't going to create a system where the Embassy in Bangkok is going to be able to check into the 1000 different kinds of USG pensions just because the Thai government demands it.  I've lived in 6 different countries for the past 20 years and no one, not even Russia or Nigeria, had the garbage bureaucracy Thailand has.

 

And spurious insults toward the people who told you that aside (and everyone else in American Citizens Services), your argument is still that you want the Thai way (go to your Embassy for everything we demand, and pay $50 or more per you) over the Embassy way, which is "take the documents on their merits."  So, yes, the Thai way is crap and I appreciate the Embassy for saying no to it.

[sqwakvfr]

6 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

But you were told they weren't readily verifiable, so the premise of your argument falls apart.  Uncle Sam isn't going to create a system where the Embassy in Bangkok is going to be able to check into the 1000 different kinds of USG pensions just because the Thai government demands it.  I've lived in 6 different countries for the past 20 years and no one, not even Russia or Nigeria, had the garbage bureaucracy Thailand has.

 

And spurious insults toward the people who told you that aside (and everyone else in American Citizens Services), your argument is still that you want the Thai way (go to your Embassy for everything we demand, and pay $50 or more per you) over the Embassy way, which is "take the documents on their merits."  So, yes, the Thai way is crap and I appreciate the Embassy for saying no to it.

My specific income is verifiable.  If not then how does a bank verifiy my income so I can get a loan?  If a bank can verify   then the a US Governmental Agency can’t? Or won’t?  Verification of income is the “Thai Way”?  My point is and has been always been certain income is verifiable.  If I was a self-employed digital nomad in Chiang Mai with multiple sources of “gig” incomes then it would be a different story.  

[ChicagoExpat]

21 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

My specific income is verifiable.  If not then how does a bank verifiy my income so I can get a loan?  If a bank can verify   then the a US Governmental Agency can’t? Or won’t?  Verification of income is the “Thai Way”?  My point is and has been always been certain income is verifiable.  If I was a self-employed digital nomad in Chiang Mai with multiple sources of “gig” incomes then it would be a different story.  

Assuming we're talking about a US Government source of income and not private sources, the answer is that for better or for worse, it seems Uncle Sam hasn't seen fit to give the Bangkok consular officers alone (and ONLY this Embassy, as only Thailand has this stupid system, per my knowledge and experience) access to the hundreds of databases you'd need to be able to provide official income verification for any Joe Blow that walks in.  I don't see how this is hard to see -- the guy told you he didn't have access to all this.  Based on the stuff you said about them earlier, I guess you think they're lying.

 

Again -- the American Embassy has forced the Thais to move away from this worthless system and take financial documents at face value, saving you a trip to Bangkok from wherever you are and subject to getting an appointment, as well as $50 plus travel costs, and you're still complaining.  I. Just. Don't. Get. It.  You seem to want the other way just to get your way, in spite of yourself.

Edited September 12, 2023 by ChicagoExpat

[sqwakvfr]

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Assuming we're talking about a US Government source of income and not private sources, the answer is that for better or for worse, it seems Uncle Sam hasn't seen fit to give the Bangkok consular officers alone (and ONLY this Embassy, as only Thailand has this stupid system, per my knowledge and experience) access to the hundreds of databases you'd need to be able to provide official income verification for any Joe Blow that walks in.  I don't see how this is hard to see -- the guy told you he didn't have access to all this.  Based on the stuff you said about them earlier, I guess you think they're lying.

 

Again -- the American Embassy has forced the Thais to move away from this worthless system and take financial documents at face value, saving you a trip to Bangkok from wherever you are and subject to getting an appointment, as well as $50 plus travel costs, and you're still complaining.  I. Just. Don't. Get. It.  You seem to want the other way just to get your way, in spite of yourself.

An external inquiry to confirm an income does not need to access a secure database.  A confirmation letter or email is what most financial institutions use to confirm income.  “I guess you think they are lying”??? A guess is like assuming.  “I just don’t get it”?  I never asked you to get it”.  This is just my perspective.  

[ChicagoExpat]

14 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

An external inquiry to confirm an income does not need to access a secure database.  A confirmation letter or email is what most financial institutions use to confirm income.  “I guess you think they are lying”??? A guess is like assuming.  “I just don’t get it”?  I never asked you to get it”.  This is just my perspective.  

It DOES need a secure database.  You really think something that can confirm the financials of millions of people shouldn't be secure?  And again, you miss the point completely.  WHY DO YOU WANT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL THIS EXTRA WORK?  You're literally arguing that you want to pay more and work harder to achieve the same goal.

You are correct!  A guess IS like an assumption, only less confident.  Actually, let's upgrade "guess" in my previous comment -- I was trying to be polite -- to "assume."  You ARE saying the Chiang Mai officer is lying.

You never asked me to get it?  That's why you argue with me and the others in this thread?

So, your score for the day is 1 out of 2.  You kind of correctly defined "guess", while totally bombing out on "get it".  You can do better!  Keep trying!

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:17 AM, OJAS said:

Well, at least the Norwegian Embassy are still providing an income confirmation service for their expats, in stark contrast to their American, Australian and British counterparts! Makes me seriously wonder why that particular trio of embassies were unable to come up with similar documentary requirements, instead of merely hoisting the white flag of surrender by throwing their arms up in the air and pulling the plug.

 

Because they're lazy.

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:14 AM, sqwakvfr said:

So the Norwegian Embassy accepts Tax documents to prove income.   Last year a rep from the US Consulate in Chiang Mai was asked why the US Embassy will not provide income certificates the response was “there is no central database of incomes in the US like European countries”.  Even then I called “BS”.  The US Embassy/Consulate in Thailand is the most useless entity for Americans in Thailand.   The useless people at the US Embassy do not realize the $$ making of potential of verifying and certifying incomes for Americans who file tax returns.  Heck they could charge $100 for such a service.  The US State Department is.a Bureaucracy.  The only things that change in a bureaucracy are the names and faces.  When Clown Ambassador Gödel is gone a new talking head will be appointed.  As an American I can call any US government employee a Clown because I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights. 

AND ....

The present administration is a total Clown show!

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:47 PM, BritScot said:

More fool the Norwegian embassy or maybe the numbers are small so easy to verify the documents provided or they are not bothering. It was not the embassies that caused this but the Thai government by wanting each embassy to check and verify each financial claim this would cost in time money and slow to a crawl every application for verification. 

Hardly. I can log onto Social Security, access my "Benefit Letter", download and print to pdf file, in less than 3 minutes. The US State Department probably knows what I had for dinner last night.  They're just plan lazy.  I guess the fed now pays their "entertainment fund" now that they aren't charging $50 a pop to print and notarized a letter.

[sqwakvfr]

42 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

It DOES need a secure database.  You really think something that can confirm the financials of millions of people shouldn't be secure?  And again, you miss the point completely.  WHY DO YOU WANT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL THIS EXTRA WORK?  You're literally arguing that you want to pay more and work harder to achieve the same goal.

You are correct!  A guess IS like an assumption, only less confident.  Actually, let's upgrade "guess" in my previous comment -- I was trying to be polite -- to "assume."  You ARE saying the Chiang Mai officer is lying.

You never asked me to get it?  That's why you argue with me and the others in this thread?

So, your score for the day is 1 out of 2.  You kind of correctly defined "guess", while totally bombing out on "get it".  You can do better!  Keep trying!

I will KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid:  Of course I am not calling you or anyone on this forum stupid. My point has always been these points:

1. Confirming someone’s income from a governmental agency is a common practice. I worked for a governmental agency and had my income confirmed numerous times by external inquires.  Otherwise how could I have obtained a loan?

2.  As long as the applicant signs a waiver or authorization form the agency that runs the secure pension database can answer one simple questions:  “The person states he or she makes XXXX amount per year.  Can your agency confirm this?”.  That is pretty much it. 

3.  I have never said anyone is lying. You did. 

4. I breathe just fine, I have always done better and I always try. 

5. I am not arguing with you because i do not know who or what you are?  I am simply responding to your comments.  

6. I do not need to keep trying because my point has been information from any secure database can be confirmed as long as secure process is followed.  

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:52 PM, khunjeff said:

1) By regulation, the embassy can only provide notarial services that are equivalent to what a US notary public is authorized to provide. That does not include verifying or guaranteeing financial claims of private citizens. 

 

2) The embassy has no ability to implement a fee for any service. All fees are set by the Office of Management and Budget after being published in the Federal Register, and are the same worldwide.

 

3) Fees for notarial services are not retained by the consular section, the embassy, the Bureau of Consular Services, or even the State Department - they are turned over to the Treasury Department as part of general government funds. 

Yep, still pretty lame since ALL MY INCOME IS FROM THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.  YOU!

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:08 AM, statman78 said:

Being a US citizen here in Thailand with a retirement extension I love the fact that I don’t need an income letter from my embassy.  I simply go to my bank, get a 12 month statement, highlight the monthly transfers and present it to immigration along with a bank letter and a copy of my bank book.  No issues and no need to travel to Bangkok or the consulate in Chiang Mai.  
 

And if you have no heirs here, how hard is it for your family to get your $25K back? Seriously.

[ChicagoExpat]

9 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

Yep, still pretty lame since ALL MY INCOME IS FROM THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.  YOU!

Uh, not me.  I'm not the U.S. Government.  Again, still pretty lame because you're arguing for more work and expense... from you.

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/4/2023 at 2:19 PM, sqwakvfr said:

Wow, You know me so well,  I believe it is spelled "aggrandizing".  But you are the expert so I could be wrong.  Also why would a monument to a dead or living person be related to this subject matter.  I made a spelling error.  I should have typed statute versus statue.  For making this error I apologize to all who have been offended. 

No worries sqwak, crybabies just gonna cry.  ????

[Joebuzzz]

3 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Uh, not me.  I'm not the U.S. Government.  Again, still pretty lame because you're arguing for more work and expense... from you.

Fine. Use your taxes on illegal aliens.  Chicagostan loves them. The embassy doesn't do squat. Just the minimum to qualify for their tax paid paychecks.

[statman78]

15 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

And if you have no heirs here, how hard is it for your family to get your $25K back? Seriously.

I have a Thai wife so everything goes to her.  I decided on the retirement extension instead of the marriage extension.  Less work every year.  Also, there is very little money in my account.  Since I transfer the required amount every month we can spend it.  We’ve been buying rental properties and land so that when I pass away my wife will have a source of income.  No need to keep the 800k in the bank.

[Liquorice]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:34 PM, OJAS said:

Can't speak for the American and Australian embassies, but, as far as their British counterpart is concerned, all that I can say is that, if they consider their officers to be incapable of conducting quick and simple verification checks taking a handful of seconds in each case, it isn't exactly complimentary about said officers' level of intelligence, is it?

Firstly, most Government state pensions come nowhere near meeting the financial requirement of 65K per month.
The current UK state pension equates to the equivalent of 39,338 baht per month.
The shortfall comes from private or company pensions in order to meet the financial requirements.

 

'Verification' does not mean production of pension documents, but authenticating the information given on such documents.
Only your individual pension provider can verify your income, and that information is restricted due to Data Protection Acts.
Your pension provider will only deal with you as the recipient of the pension, after providing security details already on file to confirm your identity.
Only by providing a form of 'authorisation' to grant another 'named person' (not organisation), will your pension provider provide information or deal with that other named person.