Outrage over Abbas's antisemitic speech on Jews and Holocaust

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

The answer starts with J and anyone denying that is full of it.

That explanation is obviously on the money in this case but it didn't occur to me. It's certainly not a reason I take an interest in middle east affairs. I'm singularly uninterested in religion until it's used as an excuse for social aberrations..

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

That explanation is obviously on the money in this case but it didn't occur to me. It's certainly not a reason I take an interest in middle east affairs. I'm singularly uninterested in religion until it's used as an excuse for social aberrations..

The Palestinians want a hard line Iranian style Islamic state with Sharia law Governing the land .

    Woman will have to wear Hijabs  , LGTB people will get thrown off buildings and all the other things that Sharia law Countries participate in 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

That explanation is obviously on the money in this case but it didn't occur to me. It's certainly not a reason I take an interest in middle east affairs. I'm singularly uninterested in religion until it's used as an excuse for social aberrations..

I call B.S.

Zionism originated as a political liberation movement for the Jewish PEOPLE, religious and not religious.

Persecution for thousands of years in the diaspora went after all Jewish PEOPLE, religious and not religious.

Israel demonizers often falsely claim Jewish is just another religion.

Nope. 

Jewish is an ETHNOreligious group. A very big difference.

Nazism of course was obsessed with seeing Jews as a RACE. 

It's common to this day to conflate race and ethnicity from all groups, fascists or not. 

 

 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

The Palestinians want a hard line Iranian style Islamic state with Sharia law Governing the land .

    Woman will have to wear Hijabs  , LGTB people will get thrown off buildings and all the other things that Sharia law Countries participate in 

Again you fail to provide a link to this obviously false and racist claim. Make no mistake, this post is as racist as they come.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

The Palestinians want a hard line Iranian style Islamic state with Sharia law Governing the land .

    Woman will have to wear Hijabs  , LGTB people will get thrown off buildings and all the other things that Sharia law Countries participate in 

Well, there are different factions of Palestinian Arabs and they are not a monolith.

You've got Palestinian Arabs who are Christian, Muslim, or nothing.

They live in Gaza, the West bank, Lebanon, Syria. and the global diaspora.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well, there are different factions of Palestinian Arabs and they are not a monolith.

You've got Palestinian Arabs who are Christian, Muslim, or nothing.

They live in Gaza, the West bank, Lebanon, Syria. and the global diaspora.

The solution is dead simple. Either one nation and an equal vote or two nations and separate votes.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Again you fail to provide a link to this obviously false and racist claim. Make no mistake, this post is as racist as they come.

It's wrong in general but correct about factions of Palestinian Arabs.  It's true that like almost all of the Arab world, it's very oppressive for gay people, they are murdered often by their own families.

Israel of course is the only place in the Middle East where gay people aren't persecuted.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

It's wrong in general but correct about factions of Palestinian Arabs.  It's true that like almost all of the Arab world, it's very oppressive for gay people, they are murdered often by their own families.

Israel of course is the only place in the Middle East where gay people aren't persecuted.

There's division in every diaspora.

[Jingthing]

Just now, ozimoron said:

The solution is dead simple. Either one nation and an equal vote or two nations and separate votes.

If it was so simple, it would have hapenned already.

I reckon you know perfectly well that a two state solution has become almost impossible because of all the Israeli settlements in the west bank, and one nation equal votes will never be accepted by Israel, as the foundation of Israel is indeed political Zionism, and that requires a majority Jewish nation state.

I have no simple solution to propose.

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Again you fail to provide a link to this obviously false and racist claim. Make no mistake, this post is as racist as they come.

Try reading the Palestinian Charter , the Palestinians  set out their plans for the future in their Charter and they want an Islamic state under Sharia law .

   See, this belongs in the Middle East for beginners category 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Try reading the Palestinian Charter , the Palestinians  set out their plans for the future in their Charter and they want an Islamic state under Sharia law .

   See, this belongs in the Middle East for beginners category 

Isn't that from Hamas (Gaza) specifically?

I do think most Palestinian Arabs favor the end of the state of Israel. Some are extreme in what to do about all the Jews there as most Israeli Jews were born in Israel, and some more moderate. But there is no way ANY Israeli government, liberal or conservative, is going to go for any of that and global people should not expect any nation to commit suicide.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If it was so simple, it would have hapenned already.

I reckon you know perfectly well that a two state solution has become almost impossible because of all the Israeli settlements in the west bank, and one nation equal votes will never be accepted by Israel, as the foundation of Israel is indeed political Zionism, and that requires a majority Jewish nation state.

I have no simple solution to propose.

Not when the Israelis hold all the aces and don't want either solution.

 

Admit it, there's no realistic alternative to one nation, one vote or two nations, is there?

Edited September 21, 2023 by ozimoron

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Not when the Israelis hold all the aces and don't want either solution.

 

Admit it, there's no realistic alternative to one nation, one vote or two nations, is there?

A resolution of the conflict is not any kind of priority for any recent Israeli government. 

As I said I think both two stqte and one state with voting equality are off the table. 

There is probably some kind of better than the status quo compromise scheme that is possible but I couldn't tell you the details. 

I understand why Palestinians are angry but as far as how things got to where they are now, it's objectively wrong that they didn't play an important role in that.

Starting with the Arab world attacking after 1948.

Imagine if the Arab world had accepted the reality of Israel in 1948 and decided to peacefully cooperate with Israel in the development of the region. Instead they screwed themselves.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A resolution of the conflict is not any kind of priority for any recent Israeli government. 

As I said I think both two stqte and one state with voting equality are off the table. 

There is probably some kind of better than the status quo compromise scheme that is possible but I couldn't tell you the details. 

I understand why Palestinians are angry but as far as how things got to where they are now. it's objectively wrong that they didn't play an important role in that.

Starting with the Arab world attacking after 1948.

Exactly as I said, Israel doesn't want a solution because the only two possible outcomes which could lead to peace are unacceptable to the Israeli right wing who currently run the country. There's plenty of opposition among Israelis who want a resolution. They remember the last one who got shot.

 

That Palestinians committed atrocities is not an excuse for not seeking a resolution.

Edited September 21, 2023 by ozimoron

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Isn't that from Hamas (Gaza) specifically?

It was written by the P.L.O in 1964 and it was for all Palestinians and it considerers the state of Israel to be completely illegal and for Israel to be wholly replaced by an Islamic state   

   Yasser Arafat claimed to have amended the Palestinian Charter , Israel says he didn't and also Palestinians now say it wasn't amended 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Exactly as I said, Israel doesn't want a solution because the only two possible outcomes which could lead to peace are unacceptable to the Israeli right wing who currently run the country. There's plenty of opposition among Israelis who want a resolution. They remember the last one who got shot.

 

That Palestinians committed atrocities is not an excuse for seeking a resolution.

You're being very naive.

Previous peace activists were dealing with a different west bank.

It's too late to dismantle all the west bank settlements.

The majority on both sides know two state is over.

It's a nice thing to talk about but it's too late.

Of course there are liberal factions among Israeli Jews, but fewer and fewer numbers and you'll never see a majority of Israeli Jews voting for national suicide (one nation equal votes).

If I had the answers that would be politically acceptable for both sides, I would say, but this situation is the opposite of simple.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

It was written by the P.L.O in 1964 and it was for all Palestinians and it considerers the state of Israel to be completely illegal and for Israel to be wholly replaced by an Islamic state   

   Yasser Arafat claimed to have amended the Palestinian Charter , Israel says he didn't and also Palestinians now say it wasn't amended 

OK.

As I said before it's obvious that the majority of Palestinians don't want Israel to exist.

Israel naturally has a problem with that.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

You're being very naive.

Previous peace activists were dealing with a different west bank.

It's too late to dismantle all the west bank settlements.

The majority on both sides know two state is over.

It's a nice thing to talk about but it's too late.

Of course there are liberal factions among Israeli Jews, but lesser and lesser numbers and you'll never see a majority of Israeli Jews voting for national suicide (one nation equal votes).

If the 2 state solution is over then one man one vote is the alternative. Everything else is apartheid and doomed to never ending disadvantage and war..

[Nick Carter icp]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If it was so simple, it would have hapenned already.

I reckon you know perfectly well that a two state solution has become almost impossible because of all the Israeli settlements in the west bank, and one nation equal votes will never be accepted by Israel, as the foundation of Israel is indeed political Zionism, and that requires a majority Jewish nation state.

 

They can have a Palestinian state in the West bank with the Jewish settlers living there as Palestinian citizens .

   Israel accepts Palestinian Muslims  as its citizens , why cant a Palestine accept Jews as its citizens ?

[ozimoron]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

They can have a Palestinian state in the West bank with the Jewish settlers living there as Palestinian citizens .

   Israel accepts Palestinian Muslims  as its citizens , why cant a Palestine accept Jews as its citizens ?

Agree!

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

If the 2 state solution is over then one man one vote is the alternative. Everything else is apartheid and doomed to never ending disadvantage and war..

I get what you're saying. One state without equal voting power could be a possibility. If both sides find that at least OK, I doubt Israelis are going to lose much sleep being labelled an apartheid state. They are already labeled that.

 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

They can have a Palestinian state in the West bank with the Jewish settlers living there as Palestinian citizens .

   Israel accepts Palestinian Muslims  as its citizens , why cant a Palestine accept Jews as its citizens ?

Because they never will!

Also to be fair the settlers tend to be very right wing Israelis. They wouldn't accept living under a Palestinian government even if the Palestinians allowed that. 

Yes it's a mess. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I get what you're saying. One state without equal voting power could be a possibility. If both sides find that at least OK, I doubt Israelis are going to lose much sleep being labelled an apartheid state. They are already labeled that.

 

Why would the Palestinians think unequal voting would be acceptable? Would the Israelis?

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I get what you're saying. One state without equal voting power could be a possibility. If both sides find that at least OK, I doubt Israelis are going to lose much sleep being labelled an apartheid state. They are already labeled that.

 

Expanding on that maybe something like Hong Kong used to, one country two systems.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Because they never will!

Ah, the ugly head of racism arises. The evidence is more that the Israelis won't accept the Palestinians as equals. Otherwise there'd be an equal vote.

 

I

[Jingthing]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Why would the Palestinians think unequal voting would be acceptable? Would the Israelis?

They wouldn't think it's acceptable.

I'm not saying that will happen but I do think two states, and one state with an Arab majority vote are off the table.

I haven't pretended to be able to solve this conflict.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Expanding on that maybe something like Hong Kong used to, one country two systems.

There was no racial division in Hong Kong. False equivalence, There wasn't any kind of significant division among HK population.

[Jingthing]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Ah, the ugly head of racism arises. The evidence is more that the Israelis won't accept the Palestinians as equals. Otherwise there'd be an equal vote.

 

I

Now you're really full of it if you're suggesting there isn't anti Jewish racism in Gaza and the west bank. Total B.S.!

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

There was no racial division in Hong Kong. False equivalence, There wasn't any kind of significant division among HK population.

I wasn't suggesting an equivalence. 

It was a rough example of what might potentially be possible.

Of course things ended tragically for Hong Kong.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I wasn't suggesting an equivalence. 

It was a rough example of what might potentially be possible.

Of course things ended tragically for Hong Kong.

It's not a valid example because there is no racial division to speak of in HK.