American man faces dilemma as Thai girlfriend’s parents demand 1 million baht dowry

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, Walker88 said:

The cost of an average American wedding does not include a purchase price for the bride, it's just a party.

No, payment is deferred until the divorce.

[dunroaming]

On 9/13/2023 at 1:16 PM, BritManToo said:

Easy answer is just live together, no marriage.

I lived together with my Thai wife for nearly two years before we got married.  Then we went to the local government office in Hang Dong on a Monday morning, joined the queue, signed the relevant paperwork and then went food shopping at Tesco Lotus.  No fuss and no temple ceremony.  That was all suggested by my wife.  No sinsod asked for or paid.  My wife's family are comfortably off  and respected their daughters decision to do it that way.

 

It was explained to me at the time that if I had been Thai then it would have been much more of an event and sinsod would have been paid (which would have been immediately returned after the ceremony).  And the sinsod is shown on the day.  That is what happened with both of my wife's sisters.  This was twenty four years ago now but by some miracle she still puts up with me  even today

[cncltd1973]

12 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

The average American wedding, including all expenses such as the rings, ceremony and reception, comes in at a whopping $33,900! 

 

Same human trafficking???

is that the same to you, really? same effect on the bank account, if that's what you are looking at, but in your example the man is buying things, in my example the man is buying a daughter

[d4dang]

Is this an AI generated story? 

[Reginald Prewster]

14 hours ago, quake said:

Was that you,  I was talking to in pattaya last week

at that gogo bar on beach road.

I was living 2002 - 2020 in Pattaya but in the beach road gogo bars and walking street I must have been less than 20 times. 

Only when I had to bring out a customer for a job interview or if friends came for vacation. 

I used to have my beers in Pattaya Darkside... until I moved to Isaan

[GinBoy2]

Another tale of the sinsod.

 

My sister in law now in her 40's, has at this point been married three times.

 

Every time she has tried to 'upgrade' and married pretty well off spouses and families.

 

Now my wife, as the de facto matriarch of the family since the parents are dead, should in theory have received the sinsod.

 

Not a satang, and all three marriages failed, I think the longest lasted 3 years.

 

The whole sinsod thing is overblown in farang minds. Yeah maybe it's a thing with backofbeyond poorer than dirt family with the hooker daughter finding her farang prince.

 

But for regular folks it's just a piece of marriage theater like a wedding cake 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, cncltd1973 said:

is that the same to you, really? same effect on the bank account, if that's what you are looking at, but in your example the man is buying things, in my example the man is buying a daughter

I thought the bride's parents paid for the wedding.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Money does not negate customs.

 

You can’t have a typical Thai wedding and pick and choose which customs you will observe.

 

The bride’s parents lose face if no sinsod.  They would probably rather borrow the money to show the guests (telling them you paid) rather than suffer the ignominy of admitting you paid no sinsod.

 

A lot of parents will give it to the bride after the wedding.

 

Another cultural point to bear in mind “YOU” pay for the wedding.

LOL, LOL, LOL.

It's nowhere REQUIRED to have a typical Thai wedding, I didn't. We went to the amphur signed the paper, got a copy each and went back home.

Didn't even have a village ceremony when we went to live there.

 

Try again.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Straight8 said:

I agree, but a bit too late for this chaps, it's basically set. It's all on their terms now, especially since the bride agrees the 1 million baht Sinsod is reasonable.

Sounds like the American guy won't marry her if it's a sticking point. Obviously has doubts if he's asking on a forum about it.

 

I'm very happy I didn't buy my wife. The family not so much.

[BritManToo]

32 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sounds like the American guy won't marry her if it's a sticking point. Obviously has doubts if he's asking on a forum about it.

 

I'm very happy I didn't buy my wife. The family not so much.

I believe he asked on Reddit, and this forum copied it.

 

From the OP ...........

The American shared his story on the social media platform Reddit yesterday, September 12.

Edited September 15, 2023 by BritManToo

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL, LOL, LOL.

It's nowhere REQUIRED to have a typical Thai wedding, I didn't. We went to the amphur signed the paper, got a copy each and went back home.

Didn't even have a village ceremony when we went to live there.

 

Try again.

Again, I guess there is a difference from a girl who worked in the "turist industry" meeting foreigners, and a young daughter with Uni education with no previous history. Meaning not married, no kids, and no other known luggage from past.

 

I would personal never married a Hi so out of many reasons, but that's not the point here.

 

The point is, sin sod or dowry as it is called, is a cultural phenomen in Thailand, so, either you accept it or not!

 

Simple as that

 

I guess wedding is off for now when this reached the social media and world news, and can hope for next generation it will create an healthy debate about sin sod, and why it should end. For many young thais it is a disaster unfortunate, and also for couples from mixed cultures obviously.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Hummin

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I thought the bride's parents paid for the wedding.

Not in Thailand, you don’t know much about the customs here do you.

 

Try again!

Edited September 16, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Not in Thailand, you don’t know much about the customs here do you.

 

Try 

Sin sod is ment to be the pay for the party, food, drinks, dresses, music, dancers and other costs involved, and the envelope money from the guests is for the couple. 

 

And from there, there is a variety of customs giving the left overs back to the couple, keeping it for safety, donation to temple for good luck, and more.

 

Others often make foreigner pay sin sod, party, and everything else that could come to mind, but that's a scam.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

37 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Sin sod is ment to be the pay for the party, food, drinks, dresses, music, dancers and other costs involved, and the envelope money from the guests is for the couple. 

 

And from there, there is a variety of customs giving the left overs back to the couple, keeping it for safety, donation to temple for good luck, and more.

 

Others often make foreigner pay sin sod, party, and everything else that could come to mind, but that's a scam.

 

 

Not true.

 

“Sin Sod”, or Thai dowry, is supposed to be given by the groom to the bride’s family so as to be repaid for the loss of their daughter. This assures the Sin Sod family that the groom is financially able to support and care for their daughter and is expected in the Thai culture. Thai dowry, ‘Sin Sod’ is a long upheld tradition in Thailand and is considered completely likely and very common. The Thai dowry is extremely symbolic, although treated lightly by Westerners.

It is important for a Thai family to have an interest in financial security, and it is expected from the groom to prove such a thing before marriage for his family. As a Thai man, you are generally expected to move into, as well as maintain, the in-laws family home. This includes any business or financial problem, as well as taking care of any relatives. This provides a support system and overall closeness in a Thai family.

In the case of inheritance, the family’s home and any land are normally passed on to the children who are female, meaning the husband of a daughter would be expected to maintain these benefits. That amount of Thai dowry depends on the social status of the bride’s family as well as her education level and is at oftentimes disagreed upon by Westerners, if not refused altogether. On average, a Thai wife can be worth about 100,000 Baht at least.

However, if the bride is “spoiled or ruined” (Mia Maiy), no Thai dowry will be required, as well as if she comes along with her children of a former marriage. To negotiate Sin Sod, the groom is to approach the Thai parents with Tong Mun, literally translating into “gold engagement” which is 24-karat jewelry for the bride, similar to an engagement ring, but anything with value. “Sin,” meaning riches, and “Sod,” the act of holding on to something, is the dowry itself.

During a ceremony, the bride will receive this “Tong Mun” at her family’s own home. This ceremony is referred to in Thailand as “Phitee Mun,” in which accepting family members will attend. Once this occurs you will become an official couple. When you become a couple you will be called Koo Mun, meaning, “joined couple.”

Another part of the Thai tradition is an engagement ceremony. At the end of this ceremony, each attendant will tie a string around the bride and the groom’s hand, further showing their acceptance and giving their blessings. This is called “Bai Sri Soon Kwan” which comes before the Koo Mun, the actual wedding. The Koo Mun will occur several weeks after the Bai Sri Son Kwan and also after the dowry is received, although unimportant toward the actual wedding registration. This is because, legally, dowry in Thailand is not mandatory; it is simply a common tradition amongst the Thai families. A law firm may be trusted in helping you process and translate your marriage registration and may be able to provide you with guidance with regards to the Thai dowry system.

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/dowry-in-thailand

Additionally, the groom and his family are expected to pay for the wedding expenses (contrary to Western tradition).

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

N

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/dowry-in-thailand

Additionally, the groom and his family are expected to pay for the wedding expenses (contrary to Western tradition).

As one is more than right than the other, it still the bride family who organize and pay for the party! And every wedding I have been to, and those I first hand know (not only Isaan) Have practiced the brides family, organize and pay for everything.

 

Of those who did not have sin sod, the man paid for everything, still organized by the bride family or the wife. 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

As one is more than right than the other, it still the bride family who organize and pay for the party! And every wedding I have been to, and those I first hand know (not only Isaan) Have practiced the brides family, organize and pay for everything.

 

Of those who did not have sin sod, the man paid for everything, still organized by the bride family or the wife. 

 

 

As a father of 2 Thai adopted daughters, I have researched this greatly, the groom and his family pay for the wedding expenses in Thai culture.

[actonion]

If she's  a non virgin deduct 25%, .....if she has a  fake, or non education, deduct 25%...if she's a divorcee  deduct 25%,..... in my experience most are, ....so you are left with a reasonable 250,000b  and the parents   must pay for  the wedding party  which will cost a tidy sum with all the extended family being invited,     dont forget  she will want a chunk of gold  bought for her to wear at the wedding.......been there, done that..

[Hummin]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

As a father of 2 Thai adopted daughters, I have researched this greatly, the groom and his family pay for the wedding expenses in Thai culture.

Again, as you should know, this custom is what it is, and practiced one way or the other. There is not one understanding of it, but as said practiced widely open with many variations. 

 

I guess you find your view of it quite reasonable for your family sake? Little colored by your position ????

 

Even we know the facts, sin sod is for girls with no previous history and well rised by their family, still all kinds of women, no matter age, family (or bride) requests sin sod, and get it against all odds. 

 

Even when the mother and father have deceased, some claim sin sod on behalf of the family. 

 

Single moms as well, get sin sod, so go figure. And this is not only the case for western men marry Thai women, but as much for Thai men who fall in love with an woman with a great history of past

Edited September 16, 2023 by Hummin

[JBChiangRai]

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Again, as you should know, this custom is what it is, and practiced one way or the other. There is not one understanding of it, but as said practiced widely open with many variations. 

 

I guess you find your view of it quite reasonable for your family sake? Little colored by your position ????

 

Even we know the facts, sin sod is for girls with no previous history and well rised by their family, still all kinds of women, no matter age, family (or bride) requests sin sod, and get it against all odds. 

 

Even when the mother and father have deceased, some claim sin sod on behalf of the family. 

 

Single moms as well, get sin sod, so go figure. And this is not only the case for western men marry Thai women, but as much for Thai men who fall in love with an woman with a great history of past

Ruined girls as you describe don’t warrant sinsod. It’s only stupid westerners who pay it. A girl working in a bar would be considered ruined, but maybe her parents don’t know that she works in the bar, she probably told them she works in a restaurant and I can see an issue then.

 

You are right, I do prefer the Thai system of grooms paying for the wedding.

 

My 2 daughters are privately educated and go to university, I told the eldest one’s boyfriend that I wanted 10M baht sinsod, I was joking and surprised a few months later when he said it might take a few years of him saving up. My daughter that it was funny and put him straight.

 

Her sinsod is agreed at 1M baht and the married couple will be given it after the wedding, but that won’t be happening any time soon.

[Hummin]

33 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Ruined girls as you describe don’t warrant sinsod. It’s only stupid westerners who pay it. A girl working in a bar would be considered ruined, but maybe her parents don’t know that she works in the bar, she probably told them she works in a restaurant and I can see an issue then.

 

You are right, I do prefer the Thai system of grooms paying for the wedding.

 

My 2 daughters are privately educated and go to university, I told the eldest one’s boyfriend that I wanted 10M baht sinsod, I was joking and surprised a few months later when he said it might take a few years of him saving up. My daughter that it was funny and put him straight.

 

Her sinsod is agreed at 1M baht and the married couple will be given it after the wedding, but that won’t be happening any time soon.

You would be surprised how many Thai men also get stung by the poison of love.

 

Last year, a woman past 40, with kids from two different men, previously local married several times, and registered at Ampur one time, got 750K.

 

To her defense, she is a smart woman, who own several  businesses, and seen as rich in the village. Meaning she brings wealth to the table, and also of course for her face and her family sake. 

 

Sin sod is also an insurance in some cases when there is something to loose. And for her to get married again, it is a risk if they get divorced. Of course if they are legally married, he also have rights to what she buy and make after they got married. 

 

Not to forget your responsibility if your better half do something stupid legally or financially. 

 

I believe many here really do not know what comes with a marriage in Thailand if something happens, and the responsibility they have.

 

If you running a business with your wife, and she do not pay taxes, cheat on government and other legal matters, you are as deep in it as she is, even you had no clue, and even you have nothing to do with the business at all.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Hummin

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You would be surprised how many Thai men also get stung by the poison of love.

 

Last year, a woman past 40, with kids from two different men, previously local married several times, and registered at Ampur one time, got 750K.

 

To her defense, she is a smart woman, who own several  businesses, and seen as rich in the village. Meaning she brings wealth to the table, and also of course for her face and her family sake. 

 

Sin sod is also an insurance in some cases when there is something to loose. And for her to get married again, it is a risk if they get divorced. Of course if they are legally married, he also have rights to what she buy and make after they got married. 

 

Not to forget your responsibility if your better half do something stupid legally or financially. 

 

I believe many here really do not know what comes with a marriage in Thailand if something happens, and the responsibility they have.

 

If you running a business with your wife, and she do not pay taxes, cheat on government and other legal matters, you are as deep in it as she is, even you had no clue, and even you have nothing to do with the business at all.

I was married once in the UK, didn’t end well.

 

I am reminded of the definition of stupidity “Doing the same thing over & expecting a different result”.

 

I have been single ever since, so I won’t ever be marrying again and paying sinsod. 

[Misty]

On 9/15/2023 at 10:46 AM, Skipalongcassidy said:

You did not read or comprehend the article... "The parents asked the foreign man to give them 1 million baht as a dowry, half of which would go to his fiancée after the wedding ceremony and the other half would be kept by the parents for safekeeping"

Yes, as I said, it is wrong use of the word dowry.  If the foreign man is giving money to the bride and her family, it is called a bride price.  If the bride and her family are paying the foreign man, it is called a dowry.

[Jackbenimble]

On 9/14/2023 at 1:27 PM, ChrisKC said:

If I "pay" B1,000,000, half each to the girl and the parents and I don't get that money back (call it a free gift then), I have bought her and what's more, when the relationship fails I lose her as well! I can't claim on the guarantee either!

 

I stand buy what I said which wasn't a gambit!

..........only if you completely ignore Thai tradition. And if that's your solution then it isn't even a solution. And dont be alarmed by the Thais slowly decreasing tolerance of farangs either if that's your stance. 

[ChrisKC]

2 hours ago, Jackbenimble said:

..........only if you completely ignore Thai tradition. And if that's your solution then it isn't even a solution. And dont be alarmed by the Thais slowly decreasing tolerance of farangs either if that's your stance. 

No special comment to this silly remark! And I stand by that as well!

[Jaggg88]

The bride must be a virgin to demand a large dowry. If she has been married before then maybe a small one but if she has children then the family should pay you. That's how a lawyer explained it to me some 20 years ago. I think the same advice is on Siam Legal's website.

[MPoll]

 Sin sod is a part of Thai marriage tradition. Archaic? Sure. A tradition observed in many ways from show to serious. Other countries observe a bride price or dowry too. Western countries have all sorts of archaic traditions. In the US the bride’s family is supposed to pay for the wedding which could be a very expensive obligation. The brides father “gives” her away as if she is property. What actually happens is all a negotiation about traditions and who can afford what and what it all means for all involved. 

 

Is it all about money? If you are going to marry into a Thai family and live in Thailand then get used to money being a part of the vast complications that go along with the concept of “Face”. In any case, when have western marriages not been about money? You won’t even get a date with her if you make less money than her much less get married. Money figures into the high divorce rate in the US and the divorce settlement. 

 

I paid a sin sod of 100k and 100k for the Thai wedding. The village wedding was fascinating, moving, and beautiful and well worth 200k. I don’t care what the sin sod is for or what it means and I can’t imagine what a similar wedding in the US would cost. My first wedding in the US in 1980 probably cost more. For that wedding my fiancé and I paid for it ourselves so our parents wouldn’t be involved with the wedding plans. My parents paid for my sister’s wedding but my sister and mother nearly came to blows during the planning. In some ways wedding joy and conflicts are similar worldwide.

 

My wife’s cousin got married two years later in the same house with a similar ceremony. . He paid a sin sod of 50k. They were young Thai factory workers so that 50k was probably a much bigger deal. No, the family did not return his or my sin sod. The family is a poor farming family. Nobody is getting rich with sin sods in this family. 

 

I am simultaneously sad and amused to read westerner write comments as if their traditions and moral standing are superior. Get married or not . . . up to you. Just don’t be so high and mighty about. It is no better or worse in your home country if you bothered to look at it.

Edited September 16, 2023 by MPoll

[Callmeishmael]

Here's my two bahts worth:

I got married in Thailand 20 years ago.  I had never married before, though I had a number of long-term relationships and was over 40.  She was divorced and had an 8 year old son.  Her parents were both already dead.

 

I paid no sinsot, but I did pay for the wedding.  Fortunately the exchange rate then was 42 Baht to the Dollar!

[cedel]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:17 AM, Walker88 said:

Perhaps my logic is different, but I see a difference.

 

An engagement ring is direct to the bride (and admittedly is often wildly overdone). A sinsod is buying the woman. To me---no doubt culturally insensitive---it's no different than barfining a woman from an agogo, except it's a payment for many schtuppings, rather than just one.

 

As I noted in my earlier post, Tevye can sing TRADITION! until the sick buffaloes cows come home, but a sinsod is an admission that a woman is a commodity and you're paying for her companionship/sex. It's also a one-way street of cultural acceptance, demanding the groom see both the tradition of sinsod and the cultural peculiarity of 'face'.

I would prefer investing in a "security" or securities than in a comodity ????

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Not in Thailand, you don’t know much about the customs here do you.

 

Try again!

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

The post I quoted was referring to weddings in the USA.

If you keep on being insulting it'll be off to the ignore list with you.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, MPoll said:

I am simultaneously sad and amused to read westerner write comments as if their traditions and moral standing are superior.

I don't think my country's traditions and moral standing are superior. I do think that they don't have to be observed, and for most people they are not, other than lip service. What woman actually means it when she promises to obey her husband in western marriages these days?

Live together till death do us part- LOL.

Likewise, when in Thailand I chose which traditions to uphold and which to only give lip service to, and which to ignore. Therefore I only gave sinsod I got back, the wai I gave her mother was the last one I ever gave in LOS, and I refused to uphold the tradition of farangs handing over lotasacash to Thai families just because I married one of them.

That my marriage ended was nothing to do with failing to uphold traditions, and all to do with her becoming an unpleasant person to live with.