Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[DudleySquat]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:59 AM, impulse said:

If you didn't get mugged last night walking on the sidewalk, you're enjoying for free the benefits of tax money spent on police and sidewalks.

 

You can't say with a straight face that the police reduce crime here. 

[K2938]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Inheritance tax in Thailand is exempted between spouses and otherwise only payable over l million baht. 

If you allow me to correct your typo:  The inheritance tax threshold in Thailand is actually not 1, but 100 million baht.  And if the assets are not in Thailand and you are not a Thai national and you are only on a non-immigration visa such as Elite, retirement etc., there is no inheritance tax regardless of value.

[vukovar77]

4 hours ago, Somjot said:

 

 

Your post is a bit confusing. You write that you are on a retirement visa and later describe yourself as a permanent resident.

Residing in Thailand permanently does not make you a permanent resident.

Visa based on marriage / retirement, which has to be renewed every year where you have to show many different documents, retirement fees and/or bank statement about 800 K and so on and is a completely different thing than a permanent residency.

The latter is very difficult to get, takes many years where you and your background are checked and costs a lot of money until finally the minister for foreign affairs signs his is OK. Per year only 100 people from one nationality can apply.

 

I disagree with you. Besides the points you mentioned, not having to wire your money from your home country, if you want to buy a condo and easy coming and going you can also get the blue TABIEN BAAN and not only the yellow one.

 

You can stay as long as you want, no saying hello every 90 days and you only have to apply for a re-entry permit, if you intend to leave the country.

 

Retirement visa seems to be quite easy, but a friend of mine is here on marriage visa and he has always a bad mood weeks before he has to renew it, as they always find something new, some document, some proof, they will ask him for.

 

Basically, you have to ask every year for permission to stay for another year and you never know when that one law comes, may it be a minimum income higher than yours, may it be some health insurance, which you cannot get, because of your health status or only a little overweight and BOOM! Your life plan goes down the toilet.

 

Not with the permanent residency.

 

And by the way, when those repatriation flights to Thailand started somewhat in July 2020, after COVID had led to a complete shutdown all over the world, I could have easily been on the first flight.

 

As this did not match with my business plans, I took the second on the 20th of August 2020, while all those retirement and marriage visa guys had to stay in their countries not knowing when they could ever get back to their homes.

 

 

Although I have to admit those 15 days of quarantine locked in a room without a balcony and welded windows, which could not be opened were quite an ordeal.

 

After seven days I started talking to my suitcase.

 

On the tenth day, early afternoon, my suitcase answered.

 

But that is another story.

Well,yeah , permanent resident is not good term.You are right.I only reside here more than 180 days per year.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by vukovar77

[Dogmatix]

12 hours ago, vukovar77 said:

I have tax number as an expat here for about 8 years.Every year they ask to provide more and more documents and data.I am from EU.This year was pretty tough (for 2022)and RD check out all pension listings per month for 2022 to check out did I pay and how much taxes.They ask for yearly tax report in my home country.They ask me to show them my bank accounts in Thai banks as well.I am on retirement visa and I never had any bussiness here or rental income as well.I have Thai wife. Had to go to RD 3 times to provide all data and documents .We live simple life and abide Thai laws which demands for expats with permanent residence to have a tax number.From my experience and from my point of view it is not easy for expats do deal with this all even my income(state pension) is pretty low  comparing with most of expats live here (from my knowledge).If they do not change a new rules, next year will be very challenging for us permanents residents,from my point of view.

Your experience with the RD sounds horrific, particularly with a relatively small amount of tax at stake. I have been in the Thai tax net for years owing to locally sourced income but they have never been difficult over personal income tax, presumably because they are familiar with the standard Thai documents they request.

 

Did they make you get translations of your home country tax documents, which I guess were not in English, if you are from the EU, unless from Ireland? Also did they need copies of the originals certified by the tax authority.

Did the RD deduct the tax you paid overseas from your Thai tax obligation or did they make you pay the Thai tax and claim a tax refund from your home country?

 

[Dogmatix]

If they go ahead with demanding tax returns from foreigners without locally sourced income, they should at least produce tax return forms in English and add spaces for DTA tax credits with guideline notes explaining what is deductible under each of the 60+ DTAs and what supporting documents will be required. They publish English versions of the forms for guidance but don’t allow you to submit the English versions and there can be differences in the English versions too. I have seen cases where the Thai version had been updated but they had not bothered to update the English version, so that new clauses were missing and the numbers of clauses were wrong. 
 

With locally sourced income and no tax credits etc it is possible to file a PNG 90 tax return online, if you can read Thai well enough but otherwise virtually impossible as important messages keep popping up in tiny Thai script. If they are going to tax thousands of foreign retirees, perhaps they should recruit more staff capable of working in English, or perhaps improve the very expensive but poor quality public education system which teaches kids English from primary school to university but creates end products that are incapable of using English in a work situation or even having a basic conversation in the language.

[jonny on the spot]

28 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

If they go ahead with demanding tax returns from foreigners without locally sourced income, they should at least produce tax return forms in English and add spaces for DTA tax credits with guideline notes explaining what is deductible under each of the 60+ DTAs and what supporting documents will be required. They publish English versions of the forms for guidance but don’t allow you to submit the English versions and there can be differences in the English versions too. I have seen cases where the Thai version had been updated but they had not bothered to update the English version, so that new clauses were missing and the numbers of clauses were wrong. 
 

With locally sourced income and no tax credits etc it is possible to file a PNG 90 tax return online, if you can read Thai well enough but otherwise virtually impossible as important messages keep popping up in tiny Thai script. If they are going to tax thousands of foreign retirees, perhaps they should recruit more staff capable of working in English, or perhaps improve the very expensive but poor quality public education system which teaches kids English from primary school to university but creates end products that are incapable of using English in a work situation or even having a basic conversation in the language.

They wont recruit anyone they have google translate. No point changing something they see as working flawlessly ????

I suppose they will have to employ some more car park workers to blow whistles and wave flags. Give this <deleted> the right appearance, uniforms and medals.

You know what im talking about.

Probably roll out a couple of rice farmers earning 600 baht a day on the Breaking News 6 O'clock show to tell the world how well this initiative is working in Issan.

Edited September 24, 2023 by jonny on the spot

[Dogmatix]

7 hours ago, K2938 said:

If you allow me to correct your typo:  The inheritance tax threshold in Thailand is actually not 1, but 100 million baht.  And if the assets are not in Thailand and you are not a Thai national and you are only on a non-immigration visa such as Elite, retirement etc., there is no inheritance tax regardless of value.

Mea culpa. Yes 100 million not 1 million is the threshold for Thai inheritance tax but Settha has just ordered the RD come up with a plan to increase revenue from IHT and Land & Buildings tax. 

 

IHT is charged on Thai assets regardless of where the beneficiary resides. It is charged on foreign assets, if the heir is Thai or resides in Thailand according to Immigration laws, whatever that means.

 

There is obviously potential for overlapping jurisdictions on IHT with Thailand and other countries claiming global jurisdiction over inheritances by their citizens which might become more of an issue, if Thailand amends its inheritance tax with lower thresholds and higher rates. This is further complicated by different approaches to IHT, eg the UK taxes estates but Thailand and EU countries tax heirs. The UK Thai DTA specified inheritance as something that can be taxed in Thailand, even though Thailand had  no IHT at the time.

[jacko45k]

19 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

Anyone who know if the new tax regulations also will include inheritance from a Foreigner to Thai spouse and how shall it eventually be controlled if its savings and a gift / inheritance? ????

Felt 

Nobody knows yet.

Generally Thai laws and regulations have been geared towards and supportive of her getting her hands on all you are worth!

[Hummin]

To pay tax in Thailand and get the tax paid deducted from double taxation, most I know who do it, pay someone to do it. 

 

Scandinavian law take 25 000,- to do all necessary paperwork, including tax declaration in Norway.

 

 

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Your experience with the RD sounds horrific, particularly with a relatively small amount of tax at stake. I have been in the Thai tax net for years owing to locally sourced income but they have never been difficult over personal income tax, presumably because they are familiar with the standard Thai documents they request.

 

Did they make you get translations of your home country tax documents, which I guess were not in English, if you are from the EU, unless from Ireland? Also did they need copies of the originals certified by the tax authority.

Did the RD deduct the tax you paid overseas from your Thai tax obligation or did they make you pay the Thai tax and claim a tax refund from your home country?

 

Yep, fun and games galore could be in prospect for us Brits in receipt of that pittance called the UK State Pension - with both the RD here in Thailand and HMRC back home.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by OJAS

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

If they go ahead with demanding tax returns from foreigners without locally sourced income, they should at least produce tax return forms in English and add spaces for DTA tax credits with guideline notes explaining what is deductible under each of the 60+ DTAs and what supporting documents will be required. They publish English versions of the forms for guidance but don’t allow you to submit the English versions and there can be differences in the English versions too. I have seen cases where the Thai version had been updated but they had not bothered to update the English version, so that new clauses were missing and the numbers of clauses were wrong. 
 

With locally sourced income and no tax credits etc it is possible to file a PNG 90 tax return online, if you can read Thai well enough but otherwise virtually impossible as important messages keep popping up in tiny Thai script. If they are going to tax thousands of foreign retirees, perhaps they should recruit more staff capable of working in English, or perhaps improve the very expensive but poor quality public education system which teaches kids English from primary school to university but creates end products that are incapable of using English in a work situation or even having a basic conversation in the language.

More likely, I fear and suspect, that, if we were unable to file tax returns in the Thai language ourselves (with doubtless particular regard to specific requirements for all dates to be expressed strictly in the B.E. calendar format and all numerals in the Thai (rather than Western/Arabic) numbering format, the RD would be expecting us to line the pockets of accountants who were well versed in local linguistics at considerable expense to us in all certainty.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by OJAS

[Deserted]

I heard its going to change to everyone employed must spend 95% of their salary on alcohol.

[OJAS]

5 minutes ago, Deserted said:

I heard its going to change to everyone employed must spend 95% of their salary on alcohol.

Would not surprise me in the slightest if quite a few of us were driven to the bottle in any event by what might be in prospect!

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by OJAS

[jonny on the spot]

22 minutes ago, OJAS said:

More likely, I fear and suspect, that, if we were unable to file tax returns in the Thai language ourselves (with doubtless particular regard to specific requirements for all dates to be expressed strictly in the B.E. calendar format and all numerals in the Thai (rather than Western/Arabic) numbering format, the RD would be expecting us to line the pockets of accountants who were well versed in local linguistics at considerable expense to us in all certainty.

 

They will just make it so frustrating we end up paying just to end it.

[Hummin]

Christ sake, so much doom day negativity before anyone really knows how this is going to turn out. 

 

For most my best guess, it will continue as it have done, but for those who already have tax number, it will be easier to squise a few more baht from. 

 

The very same who claimed a tax number on long stay visa, have done it to save paying tax to their orign country. 

 

It is a very good reminder, that what we have today, might not continue the same way in future. 

 

 

[jonny on the spot]

12 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Christ sake, so much doom day negativity before anyone really knows how this is going to turn out. 

 

For most my best guess, it will continue as it have done, but for those who already have tax number, it will be easier to squise a few more baht from. 

 

The very same who claimed a tax number on long stay visa, have done it to save paying tax to their orign country. 

 

It is a very good reminder, that what we have today, might not continue the same way in future. 

 

 

I am negative because historically these peoples quaint customs and stupid ideas aint worked out very well for me, difference is i didnt care about anything before but i do care about this.

[Happy happy]

Currently as the law stands right now, does a retiree- who is tax resident in Thailand but covered by double taxation exemption-does he need to file a tax return in Thailand?

[Klonko]

Filing taxes in Thailand with offsetting income under DTA would be cumbersome and costly, but the press release may be intepreted that income in DTA countries is not subject to Thai taxes and filing  not necessary, and I hope RD is considering cumbersomeness on its side as well. Anyway, as long as Thai does not tax worldwide income regardless if transfered to Thailand, we will still be able to live ≥ 180 days in Thailand under an internationally favourable tax regime.

[Mike Teavee]

5 minutes ago, Happy happy said:

Currently as the law stands right now, does a retiree- who is tax resident in Thailand but covered by double taxation exemption-does he need to file a tax return in Thailand?

(Technically)... Yes if you have overseas income above 150,000 (+ allowances) THB that you bring into Thailand in the same Calendar/Tax year that it was earned. 

 

The DTA only comes into play when calculating how much Tax is due on the income. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Hummin]

36 minutes ago, jonny on the spot said:

I am negative because historically these peoples quaint customs and stupid ideas aint worked out very well for me, difference is i didnt care about anything before but i do care about this.

Even before all facts is on table? 

 

I have learned that the storm we see after press releases by thi government, useally is just stirring up alot feelings, page by page members arguing and making predictions, and i  the end nothing changes. 

 

Most here Im sure coming from countries who is  part of the tax deal? 

 

If not, wait and see what you actually have to deal with. 

 

The only thing I have said, Im not going to pay tax to Thailand if there is no benefits for me, just paperwork. 

[vukovar77]

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Your experience with the RD sounds horrific, particularly with a relatively small amount of tax at stake. I have been in the Thai tax net for years owing to locally sourced income but they have never been difficult over personal income tax, presumably because they are familiar with the standard Thai documents they request.

 

Did they make you get translations of your home country tax documents, which I guess were not in English, if you are from the EU, unless from Ireland? Also did they need copies of the originals certified by the tax authority.

Did the RD deduct the tax you paid overseas from your Thai tax obligation or did they make you pay the Thai tax and claim a tax refund from your home country?

 

They just concluded that after all that I do not need to pay additional tax in Thailand.I had electronic -documents signiture from my bank and my RD.They accepted that(we translated in Thai).No need to certified by the tax authority.They check my bank accounts here (take a copy).The procedure was longer and more complex for me and in Thai language mostly.Procedure was not "horrific ",only demanding and new for me.Next time I am prepared and I know what to do.

Edited September 25, 2023 by vukovar77

[redwood1]

 

This endless discussion here is kind of like this picture.....Every Country Every Goverment Every Company Every Person has a different tax, investment,retirement, and savings plan....

 

These knee jerk reaction,  non planning, back tracking, it was all a big missunderstanding Thai officals have a ZERO  chance to figure all this out and lay some kind of half baked claim with some some kind of half baked right to tax all these money flows...

 

Its just not going to happen..

 

Any Money made IN Thailand sure ok they can make claim to that money as they do....Fair enough....

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by redwood1

[jonny on the spot]

20 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Even before all facts is on table? 

 

I have learned that the storm we see after press releases by thi government, useally is just stirring up alot feelings, page by page members arguing and making predictions, and i  the end nothing changes. 

 

Most here Im sure coming from countries who is  part of the tax deal? 

 

If not, wait and see what you actually have to deal with. 

 

The only thing I have said, Im not going to pay tax to Thailand if there is no benefits for me, just paperwork. 

Wait and see is a plan i dont like subscribing too, by then its too late.

If i thought for 1 minute these people were capable of making a system that worked that didnt have mind blowing bureaucracy, i could probably get my head round paying a bit of tax

But they cant and they wont it will be the usual dogs dinner spilling over into an already dogs dinner immigration.

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, jonny on the spot said:

Wait and see is a plan i dont like subscribing too, by then its too late.

If i thought for 1 minute these people were capable of making a system that worked that didnt have mind blowing bureaucracy, i could probably get my head round paying a bit of tax

But they cant and they wont it will be the usual dogs dinner spilling over into an already dogs dinner immigration.

See the post before yours. It explains it very well.

 

We are back to the basics, to acknowledge we living in an unpredictable country, and never cut your ties with wherever you come from, or position yourself with no outs. Fits very well in my world.

 

For those who already jumped on the tax train, for the purpose of paying less tax total, might regret lærer, or maybe not. Wait and see.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Hummin

[impulse]

13 hours ago, DudleySquat said:

On 9/18/2023 at 11:59 AM, impulse said:

If you didn't get mugged last night walking on the sidewalk, you're enjoying for free the benefits of tax money spent on police and sidewalks.

You can't say with a straight face that the police reduce crime here. 

I guess a lot of guys didn't get the irony when I chose 2 of the most oft maligned uses of tax money...  Cops and sidewalks.

 

But to answer your question, if there were no cops, no justice system, no courts and no prisons, Thailand would be a quagmire and unlivable.  All of those require tax money.  And we live under their benefit, Thai or foreigner, whether we pay taxes or not.  And I'm not talking about VAT.

 

Even if we "don't get anything for free" (the claim I was responding to), we still get the benefits of a lot of tax spending, just in tolerable living conditions.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by impulse

[Felt 35]

I don't think we get any more detailed information from Rd, until we pay tax for 2024 otherwise that should be on their webpage by now. Hmm....part of the plan???? Below is googles translation of the new regulation.

Felt

 

Revenue Department orders
No. P.161/2023
Subject: Payment of income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code.
In order for revenue officials to consider this as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand.
which has assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code In the past tax year Due to work duties
or business conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41, paragraph two
of the Revenue Code The Revenue Department has ordered the following:
Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code.
who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because the property is in
Foreign countries according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income
Entering Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation.
To pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought in
in Thailand
Article 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters of response to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with
This order shall be cancelled.
Article 3 This order shall come into force for assessable income imported into Thailand from the date
1 January 2024 onwards
Ordered on 15 September 2023
  Lawan Saengsanit
(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit)
Director General of the Revenue Department

[Negita43]

2 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code.

Just for clarity does a non O visa extension mean I am a resident (I thought it meant just the opposite) - I think the concept of residency is (as in most countries) blurred and confusing.

Finally, there is an old saying "two things you can't escape - death and taxes" For me it's a matter of which comes first????!

[redwood1]

11 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

I don't think we get any more detailed information from Rd, until we pay tax for 2024 otherwise that should be on their webpage by now. Hmm....part of the plan???? Below is googles translation of the new regulation.

Felt

 

Revenue Department orders
No. P.161/2023
Subject: Payment of income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code.
In order for revenue officials to consider this as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand.
which has assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code In the past tax year Due to work duties
or business conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41, paragraph two
of the Revenue Code The Revenue Department has ordered the following:
Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code.
who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because the property is in
Foreign countries according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income
Entering Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation.
To pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought in
in Thailand
Article 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters of response to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with
This order shall be cancelled.
Article 3 This order shall come into force for assessable income imported into Thailand from the date
1 January 2024 onwards
Ordered on 15 September 2023
  Lawan Saengsanit
(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit)
Director General of the Revenue Department

Any one who pays with this pathetic info is nuts...

[transam]

1 minute ago, Negita43 said:

Just for clarity does a non O visa extension mean I am a resident (I thought it meant just the opposite) - I think the concept of residency is (as in most countries) blurred and confusing.

Finally, there is an old saying "two things you can't escape - death and taxes" For me it's a matter of which comes first????!

I maybe wrong but......????

 

An extension is just that, an extension of your visa. Very few of us are actual "resident's", we are non-immigrants being allowed to stay provided certain things to get over the hurdles, but they are saying if you have your feet in the country for 180+ days, you may be taxed on the cash you bring into the country and/or earnings whilst being in the country. 

[TravelerEastWest]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:13 AM, bob smith said:

talk about setting the bar low.

 

if you think Thailand is the be all and end all then you need to expand your horizons.

What do you mean?

 

Been here close to 20 years. Traveled and lived in overall other countries.

 

Low cost of living can easily hire a gardener, driver and housekeeper.

 

An easy, peaceful, safe life - only big problem bad air a few months of the year.