Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:

To be honest, I think the big money is either moving soon or being taken care of by lawyers and bankers who know how to prove these things later.

Grandfathering pre-2024 income was not part of the original Order or plan. It was announced later when they understood how complicated everything would otherwise become. Perhaps some influential people also mentioned that they will need at least one more year to repatriate their funds.

If you have the money and want to buy a condo, I would not wait until 2028.

I agree - the announcement 162/2023 was released probably to ensure that those who had investments that earned interest in 2023 would not have to pay taxes when the money was remitted in 2024. I hope it applies for all money before 2024, but maybe not.

 

The Condo purchase was an example to show how uncertain the current situation is and unless that is corrected and clarified, what Expat would risk bringing in money after 1 Jan 2024 to make a large purchase.  Yes - if I wanted to do it I would do it now and not later - but doing it in 2024 or any future year under the current uncertainty is unwise. And IMO not planning to be able to leave Thailand if/when it all goes to khrapp when they completely stuff thisd all up is also unwise. 

 

The Philippines Retired Expat Program guarantees that they will not tax any money you bring into the country - and you dont have to report to the Police every 3 months etc etc. Malaysia and Indonesia also have reasonable Retired Expat programs, but they aint for those living only on a Pension. Being close enough to be able to visit, but not long enough (<180 days) to have to pay income taxes on money remitted into Thailand, is definitely an option. The Philipppines also has very good air quality compared to other SEAsian countries. Bali in Indonesia and Penang in Malaysia are OK too.  Cambodia has some Expat Visas now, and given how cheap that place is, spending 180+ days there and under 180 in Thailand in any calendar year, is an option for many of those on a Pension. 

 

Surely the Thai Govt will realise they risk losing a lot of money from Expats, both those here now and those not coming, unless they address this matter positively.  Surely they see that it is stupid to offer Expat Visas to come live in Thailand, but then to tax the money that they bring into Thailand.  But as the great man said - 'I have no idea, and dont call me Shirley'.  A bloke in Aust said on one of the Aussie forums, that he asked the Embassy if the 800K he had to place in Thailand bank account would be taxed by the Thai RD in 2024 - he was advised they did not know and that he would have to ask the Thai RD.   Surely or Shirley - no one knows what they will be doing. 

[jerrymahoney]

My financial plan -- 

 

01DEC2023: deposit via SWIFT FTT 65K+ baht for extension of stay via retirement

02JAN2024: deposit via SWIFT FTT 65K+ baht for extension of stay via retirement

 

Deploy DTA when and if necessary if possible

 

Feliz año nuevo to y'all

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[jacko45k]

21 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

As I mentioned, I plan to only transfer my US Social Security income. At year end, I will have a simple statement showing my Social Security annual income.

I bet you will be able to get such a statement procured by an agent..... hell I might as well go the whole hog, spend my 800,000 and let the agent do it all!

[anrcaccount]

A frustrating thread to read. 
 

Fact - thousands of those residing here have (for many years) been bringing foreign sourced income into Thailand, in the same year that it was earned. The vast majority of them, don't pay tax to the Thailand RD.

 

In theory, these people could have tried to rely on the "income was earned the year before" exemption. In reality, this isn't tested, as tax returns are not filed at all. In reality, many inbound remittances have been earned the same year. 
 

The "income that was earned the year before" exemption is the only things that's changing. 

 

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 
 

 

[jerrymahoney]

19 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 

If the revenue folks really wanted a tax filing every year for the past 10 years they could have stationed an RD investigator at every decent size immigration office to buttonhole farangs as to whether they have submitted their annual tax form.

 

And then they could have modified their system to identify those with extensions of stay but are 'excused' from ever showing up at immigration offices.

Edited December 28, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[daveAustin]

I think I will just wait and see now as have already brought in a fair amount this year. Still reckon it’s not for us even though it would catch many out. Why would they be trying to tempt the monied in with this or that visa only to shaft them on tax later? Ok, the left doesn’t know what the right is doing and policies are often chucked up but not acted on or rescinded. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by daveAustin

[DonniePeverley]

9 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree - the announcement 162/2023 was released probably to ensure that those who had investments that earned interest in 2023 would not have to pay taxes when the money was remitted in 2024. I hope it applies for all money before 2024, but maybe not.

 

The Condo purchase was an example to show how uncertain the current situation is and unless that is corrected and clarified, what Expat would risk bringing in money after 1 Jan 2024 to make a large purchase.  Yes - if I wanted to do it I would do it now and not later - but doing it in 2024 or any future year under the current uncertainty is unwise. And IMO not planning to be able to leave Thailand if/when it all goes to khrapp when they completely stuff thisd all up is also unwise. 

 

The Philippines Retired Expat Program guarantees that they will not tax any money you bring into the country - and you dont have to report to the Police every 3 months etc etc. Malaysia and Indonesia also have reasonable Retired Expat programs, but they aint for those living only on a Pension. Being close enough to be able to visit, but not long enough (<180 days) to have to pay income taxes on money remitted into Thailand, is definitely an option. The Philipppines also has very good air quality compared to other SEAsian countries. Bali in Indonesia and Penang in Malaysia are OK too.  Cambodia has some Expat Visas now, and given how cheap that place is, spending 180+ days there and under 180 in Thailand in any calendar year, is an option for many of those on a Pension. 

 

Surely the Thai Govt will realise they risk losing a lot of money from Expats, both those here now and those not coming, unless they address this matter positively.  Surely they see that it is stupid to offer Expat Visas to come live in Thailand, but then to tax the money that they bring into Thailand.  But as the great man said - 'I have no idea, and dont call me Shirley'.  A bloke in Aust said on one of the Aussie forums, that he asked the Embassy if the 800K he had to place in Thailand bank account would be taxed by the Thai RD in 2024 - he was advised they did not know and that he would have to ask the Thai RD.   Surely or Shirley - no one knows what they will be doing. 

 

It will only be time before Phillipines and Malaysia go down this route too. India did this a few years ago. 

[K2938]

9 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Indonesia also have reasonable Retired Expat programs

But Indonesia has worldwide taxation and high tax rates unless you know something I don't

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Fact - thousands of those residing here have (for many years) been bringing foreign sourced income into Thailand, in the same year that it was earned. The vast majority of them, don't pay tax to the Thailand RD.

 

That will not be true or a fact for those that were not tax residents, or  those that remitted income that was covered by a DTA.

 

Plenty of O&G workers ( to name but one ) will have remitted plenty of big bucks whilst never being a tax resident.

 

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 

 

Why ?

 

The new interpretation is effective from 01 Jan 2024, it is not being applied retrospectively.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Fact - thousands of those residing here have (for many years) been bringing foreign sourced income into Thailand, in the same year that it was earned. The vast majority of them, don't pay tax to the Thailand RD.

 

In theory, these people could have tried to rely on the "income was earned the year before" exemption. In reality, this isn't tested, as tax returns are not filed at all. In reality, many inbound remittances have been earned the same year. 
 

The "income that was earned the year before" exemption is the only things that's changing. 

 

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 

That is so true.

The most relevant thing that should be addressed in this thread is speculating about law enforcement.

 

Tax laws have not been enforced since decades, and as long as you can hire an "agent" or pay a couple of thousand baht to bypass any rules in this country, why would one rationally think that it will be the case starting from 2024?

 

Did Thai government announce anything related to strict law enforcement and the methods they would apply in order to achieve it?

No, because they realistically know they can't.

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

A frustrating thread to read. 
 

Fact - thousands of those residing here have (for many years) been bringing foreign sourced income into Thailand, in the same year that it was earned. The vast majority of them, don't pay tax to the Thailand RD.

 

In theory, these people could have tried to rely on the "income was earned the year before" exemption. In reality, this isn't tested, as tax returns are not filed at all. In reality, many inbound remittances have been earned the same year. 
 

The "income that was earned the year before" exemption is the only things that's changing. 

 

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 

 

Finally, someone who sees things as they are.

 

I have been here 8 years as a non resident (so that makes me a tax resident of Thailand), however, I don't earn an income as far as anyone is concerned.

 

I remit at least a million baht a year for living expenses.

 

My money is in my overseas bank account (savings account), which of course is linked to my share portfolio account, any shares that pay dividends are fully franked i.e. (tax is already paid at 30%) and taken out when I am paid the dividend, besides my country has a DTA with Thailand.

 

The only thing is when I buy and sell shares (often), I don't pay any capital gains tax, now if the Thai government wants to chase me up on that, they are welcome, fat chance though.

 

Too many people here worrying about nothing, the government saying tax residents is to cast out a large net to scare most about the remittance of money, in my opinion, it won't effect expats in the slightest, so just go on about enjoying your life here and don't change anything until the fat lady sings, that or keep worrying about nothing, "up to you".

 

Now back to where I was enjoying my life 

Edited December 28, 2023 by 4MyEgo

[Danderman123]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

That is so true.

The most relevant thing that should be addressed in this thread is speculating about law enforcement.

 

Tax laws have not been enforced since decades, and as long as you can hire an "agent" or pay a couple of thousand baht to bypass any rules in this country, why would one rationally think that it will be the case starting from 2024?

 

Did Thai government announce anything related to strict law enforcement and the methods they would apply in order to achieve it?

No, because they realistically know they can't.

 

 

 

They can't even enforce motorcycle helmet laws, except for sporadically nabbing a Farang to collect some tea money.

 

How hard would it be to save lives by enforcing helmet laws? You know, stationing a few police on the streets to stop moto drivers not wearing helmets. The problem is that the average Thai moto driver doesn't carry enough cash to make it worthwhile.

[jerrymahoney]

What is oft posted on here is that the agent set-up with Immigration allowing expats to bypass IMM 's own Police Orders -- that specifically require a Thai bank account -- involves just too much money to ever go the wayside.

 

Except for one thing: The Revenue Department may soon have a dog in this hunt, as the Texans say, and right now, Revenue is not getting any of the money that could be taxed against those bank accounts, tangible or otherwise.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, DonniePeverley said:

 

It will only be time before Phillipines and Malaysia go down this route too. India did this a few years ago. 

Malaysia did it a few years ago - they delayed implementation for a few years for personal income taxes (not businesses) and they made an exemption for many people, including retired Expats living in the country.  I previously posted in this thread all about that a long time ago (last month?) - sorry aint going on another hunt to find all that again (should have kept links I know).  

[DonniePeverley]

36 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Malaysia did it a few years ago - they delayed implementation for a few years for personal income taxes (not businesses) and they made an exemption for many people, including retired Expats living in the country.  I previously posted in this thread all about that a long time ago (last month?) - sorry aint going on another hunt to find all that again (should have kept links I know).  

 

They will go further and incorporate everyone soon enough. 

 

Furthermore who the hell would want to retire in Malaysia. It's dull. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, K2938 said:

But Indonesia has worldwide taxation and high tax rates unless you know something I don't

Indonesia has been making changes recently and they dont tax the 'imported' income of retirees - as it stands they dont require retired expats to lodge a tax return and although they technically could impose taxes on Retired Expats - they do not. 

Indonesia plans sweeping tax reforms for 'expatriate' income, dividends, penalties - Business - The Jakarta Post

Income Tax For Foreign Retirees ? - Living In Indonesia Expat Forum (livinginindonesiaforum.org)

 

One thing to keep in mind when researching all this stuff is that a search for Expats Tax - even Retired Expats Tax - will give most responses targetted at Working Expats (either employed or in a business) because those companies pay Google.  Retired Expats are a completely different kettle of fish - their Visa prohibits working or running a business so they dont earn money in any country and are therefore 'excluded' from having to lodge a tax return.  But most websites offering advice and services refer to 'Expats' when in fact they are only talking about those who work or have a business - who do obviously have to pay income taxes. 

[DrPhibes]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:44 AM, lordgrinz said:

In the USA we are tax residents of the USA no matter where we live, thankfully there is a tax treaty between the USA and Thailand.

You need to read and understand the treaty.  Some things are taxed at the US side, some types of income are taxed at the Thai side.  The question is the things taxed on the Thai side, will they allow a credit for what you paid in the US.

[DrPhibes]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Malaysia did it a few years ago - they delayed implementation for a few years for personal income taxes (not businesses) and they made an exemption for many people, including retired Expats living in the country.  I previously posted in this thread all about that a long time ago (last month?) - sorry aint going on another hunt to find all that again (should have kept links I know).  

But then they revamped the law to make people who got visas based on wealth and buying property have to be worth like 2x what they had to have for the original Visa for their renewal, crushing many who had bought houses and such but could not make the new requirements. This kind of thing is always the fear of those overseas.

[Jingthing]

Blimey, at this point I'm wondering what's it going to cost to pay a tax return preparer in Thailand that actually understands both the U.S. and Thai rules to (or whatever country you're from) if and when they ever clarify this stuff in the first place. I imagine not cheap. 

[DrPhibes]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Blimey, at this point I'm wondering what's it going to cost to pay a tax return preparer in Thailand that actually understands both the U.S. and Thai rules to (or whatever country you're from) if and when they ever clarify this stuff in the first place. I imagine not cheap. 

Yup, Enrolled Agent with the IRS but heading back to the US for a couple of years this summer while the smoke clears on several fronts here in Thailand.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

A frustrating thread to read. 
Fact - thousands of those residing here have (for many years) been bringing foreign sourced income into Thailand, in the same year that it was earned. The vast majority of them, don't pay tax to the Thailand RD.

In theory, these people could have tried to rely on the "income was earned the year before" exemption. In reality, this isn't tested, as tax returns are not filed at all. In reality, many inbound remittances have been earned the same year. 
The "income that was earned the year before" exemption is the only things that's changing. 

If you're worried about this new interpretation, you should have been worried every year for the past 10! 

If you are not worried about this new rule, then perhaps you should be.

 

The reality is that for many years the Thai RD did not want Expats to lodge tax returns because under the previous rules they were probably tax exempt and they (like all Thai bureacrats) did not want all the extra work.  However, there has been a few (very few) retired/married Expats lodging tax returns -= if you believe their posts in this thread. However even with all that, the new rules, and current lack of clarification regarding where long-term retired Expats stand, means that all Expats who bring money into Thailand will be required to either pay income taxes, or prove that the money was earned before 1 Jan 2024.  Not lodging a tax return in the past was OK, because that was the Thai RD decision, but under this new rule that may not be the case after 1 Jan 2024 - we do not know. 

 

But I do know this, you do not screw with the Tax Dept in any country.  If all Expats are supposed to lodge a tax return if we remit money into Thailand and we dont, that in itself is finable offence. Then there is the 2% interrest per month on any money we should have paid in income taxes, plus whatever other penalties the Thai RD may throw at us. And the Tax Dept could go back in time many years (to 1 Jan 2024) if they wanted to - so in 2030 will we be 'caught' and nailed to the cross? Who knows what will happen, because the Thai RD has not yet stated whether retired/married Expats are required to pay income taxes on the money they remiot into Thailand (or do we have to prove it is not taxable). 

 

Not saying it will definitely be a problem - but as it stands today - it very well could be and remaining across the issue would be wise.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

But then they revamped the law to make people who got visas based on wealth and buying property have to be worth like 2x what they had to have for the original Visa for their renewal, crushing many who had bought houses and such but could not make the new requirements. This kind of thing is always the fear of those overseas.

They did tighten things up - not quite as much as that, but definitely tighter.  However, you are right - this is the 'danger' of living overseas in another country - and ait is lso why it is wise not to buy a property but to rent.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Finally, someone who sees things as they are.

I have been here 8 years as a non resident (so that makes me a tax resident of Thailand), however, I don't earn an income as far as anyone is concerned.

I remit at least a million baht a year for living expenses.

My money is in my overseas bank account (savings account), which of course is linked to my share portfolio account, any shares that pay dividends are fully franked i.e. (tax is already paid at 30%) and taken out when I am paid the dividend, besides my country has a DTA with Thailand.

The only thing is when I buy and sell shares (often), I don't pay any capital gains tax, now if the Thai government wants to chase me up on that, they are welcome, fat chance though.

Too many people here worrying about nothing, the government saying tax residents is to cast out a large net to scare most about the remittance of money, in my opinion, it won't effect expats in the slightest, so just go on about enjoying your life here and don't change anything until the fat lady sings, that or keep worrying about nothing, "up to you".

Now back to where I was enjoying my life 

So you think that when someone agrees with you they are 'right' and that is the way things really are?  Interesting.

Yes - go back to doing things like riding a bike without a helmet, and not thinking or planning ahead.

No - because other people take things seriously and plan ahead just in case everything is not fine, does not mean they are wrong.

Enjoy your life - but please leave me and the others here out of it.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Blimey, at this point I'm wondering what's it going to cost to pay a tax return preparer in Thailand that actually understands both the U.S. and Thai rules to (or whatever country you're from) if and when they ever clarify this stuff in the first place. I imagine not cheap. 

Yes that is a serious problem as far as I see it - the costsd and problems of lodging a tax return to prove that the money I remit into Thailand is not taxable - and then WTF do I do if the Thai RD decides I do have to pay iincome taxes.  And therein lies the 'rub' - as things stand right now (no clarifications or execemptions) until I lodge a tax return and get the Thai RD decision, I dont know if I will have to pay income taxes on the money I remitted into Thailand during the previous Thai tax year.  Only after March 2025 I will know if the money I brought into Thailand in 2024 will be taxed.  Uncertainty at its extreme - hope at its utmost.    Plus of course - if I do pay income taxes - what do/will I get for that?? Answer = ZERO. 

[beammeup]

I think this whole thing is the New governments half harted effort to show the UN and other institutions that they are willing to go along with their global sustainability development goals. Perhaps to drum up new global investment to Thailand, or to borrow large sums from the IMF or world bank. Whether they follow through on enforcing strict taxation or not is yet to be seen. I suspect by their non reaction that they are not going to be very pro-active on this at first. Might take a few years before they really get moving on this. By then a lot can change.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So you think that when someone agrees with you they are 'right' and that is the way things really are?  Interesting.

 

Interesting comment

 

You are the person that stick others on ' Blocked ' when they do not agree with you, or the doom & gloom that you have posted on the thread

 

 

As a retiree in Thailand who is now a tax resident. Here is the only 3 facts that I am absolutely certain of on the 28 Dec 2013.

 

Fact 1 - Something is changing on the 01 Jan 2024.

 

Fact 2 - No idea ( as yet ) how it is going to affect me.

 

Fact 3 - On 01 Jan I will have a hangover from hell.

 

Other than that. I will carry on normal jogging until the Thai Gov / RD make a concrete announcement on how their ' Changes ' are going to be implemented and what I am required to do to comply with their ' Changes '

[Steve2UK]

6 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

If the revenue folks really wanted a tax filing every year for the past 10 years they could have stationed an RD investigator at every decent size immigration office to buttonhole farangs as to whether they have submitted their annual tax form.

I've been here (retirement visa) since 2006, consider myself fairly well-informed (since before arriving) on Thai bureaucracy and the first I knew anything of farang being (much) the same as Thai citizens taxwise was when this latest Paw161/Paw162 hoo-ha started......

At very least RD could have provided immigration offices with leaflets stating that retiree farang 'tax residents' are obliged to file a tax return (including a link to RD's website?) - ready for the officer (or even just an intern?) dealing with the annual visa extension to slip into the returned passport (it's not like immigration are paper-averse ). Too logical/joined-up? Does make one wonder how readily immigration would cooperate with a new "No tax return = no visa extension" policy.......

 

[jerrymahoney]

12 minutes ago, Steve2UK said:

Too logical/joined-up? Does make one wonder how readily immigration would cooperate with a new "No tax return = no visa extension" policy.......

Do you think Revenue would just be saying to Immigration: Please?

[Guderian]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Blimey, at this point I'm wondering what's it going to cost to pay a tax return preparer in Thailand that actually understands both the U.S. and Thai rules to (or whatever country you're from) if and when they ever clarify this stuff in the first place. I imagine not cheap. 

 

Yeah, but what's the chance that the underpaid minions in the TRD will understand multiple foreign tax jurisdictions? Maybe in 5 or 10 years time when AI is doing their work for them, but not in the near future.

[Steve2UK]

16 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Do you think Revenue would just be saying to Immigration: Please?

Nope - if it came to the point, laws etc would be passed. OTOH Immigration are a division of RTP who are a potent force with a variety of levers to pull and pressure points to apply - not all of them in the open.....

Given the notorious widespread Thai inter-departmental rivalries/turf wars - maybe not so hard to foresee ('your issue, not ours') resistance..... at least until they 'got something out of it'.