Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

I disagree that the thread should be closed.  If people find it no longer useful or interesting, they will stop using it and it will die of natural causes. The same thing has been said about the PR and citizenship threads on occasion but both are now nearly 20 years old and still going strong. Members who are interested in the tax guide thread will find their own way there.

The thread was never closed. It was locked for a couple of days in order for the more focused thread on tax to achieve traction, the thread was subsequently unlocked and has been for some time.

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

I disagree that the thread should be closed.  If people find it no longer useful or interesting, they will stop using it and it will die of natural causes. The same thing has been said about the PR and citizenship threads on occasion but both are now nearly 20 years old and still going strong. Members who are interested in the tax guide thread will find their own way there.

I agree with you 100%.

 

Speaking softly, politely, and gently I think a Tax Guide thread could perhaps give people a false sense of security in following its words - as it seems to be written by nontax professionals who are not native speakers of Thai (or near-native speakers). It also could open the forum up to legal issues if someone follows it and has problems...

 

Then again many people may prefer a tax guide thread as it is... and I am all for freedom of speech.

 

I love the Voltaire quote:

 

"I may detest what you have to say but I will die for your right to say it..."

 

 

Edited January 15 by TravelerEastWest

[UKresonant]

On 1/14/2024 at 3:21 AM, Mike Lister said:

I read that as being from the date stamp on departure to the date stamp on arrival, which is manageable to some degree since you would need to go airside before midnight for most long hauls. The problem is that the same day could count as being resident in two different countries, which can add up over the year.

Some trivia.....

 

Just checked the five next trips someone has booked ( of which two of the the outbound flights are the same as ours were, about 6 months ago, and we ended up a few minutes past midnight, on checking the departure stamps, even though we were hurrying as that channel was perhaps closing at midnight).

So with Thailand counting any part of the day as a full day for Tax Purposes, and UK using midnight to count the day.

 

Most probably, even 

1. O/B Thailand = Yes   UK=Yes (Same Calendar Day)

Counted both places on 1 day

2. I/B Dep UK=No 1Day, Next Day Arrival Thailand = Yes

Not counted 1 day + counted 1 Day

3. O/B Thailand = Yes, Next Day Arrival UK =Yes

1 Day + 1 Day

4. I/B Dep UK=No 1Day, Next Day Arrival Thailand = Yes

Not counted 1 day + counted 1 Day

5. O/B Thailand = Yes   UK=Yes (Same Calendar Day)

Counted both places on 1 day.

 

So on the two counting conventions; of 8 dates, Thailand 5 days,  UK 3 days, Nowhere 2 days (UK departures), counted for Tax presence. 5 / 3 to Thailand. (if that elite  article is correct https://www.siam-legal.com/thai-elite-visa/legal-applications-on-the-new-thai-tax-law-and-thailand-elite-visa-holders/ )

Random chance of bookings could catch someone out, if pushing the 179 days tax non-residence to the edge 

 

[I remember Going through DMK about twenty years ago, and one of our family group got a little stamp in their passport, presumably overstay of 20mins, at the other desk. No one else got one we were all trying to get to the gate for the departure. But not knowing we had taken the 29 and a half days in time to be under 30 Days! oops, but only one jobsworth on duty]

[stat]

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

I disagree that the thread should be closed.  If people find it no longer useful or interesting, they will stop using it and it will die of natural causes. The same thing has been said about the PR and citizenship threads on occasion but both are now nearly 20 years old and still going strong. Members who are interested in the tax guide thread will find their own way there.

I fully agree with Dogmatix! Why not make the tax guide a sticky item for quick reference (if possible). The guys who want the deep dive need the thread. This taxation issue is a complicated topic so there are no quick answers and a lot of fears and misconceptions which should be adressed in this specifc thread. Thanks to George that he has reopened the thread!

[UKresonant]

11 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I agree with you 100%.

 

Speaking softly, politely, and gently I think a Tax Guide thread could perhaps give people a false sense of security in following its words - as it seems to be written by nontax professionals who are not native speakers of Thai (or near-native speakers). It also could open the forum up to legal issues if someone follows it and has problems...

 

Then again many people may prefer a tax guide thread as it is... and I am all for freedom of speech.

 

I love the Voltaire quote:

 

"I may detest what you have to say but I will die for your right to say it..."

 

 

I think the tax guide is a very good overview at a snapshot in time, and for example I have become aware of the over 65 and the 50% of pension up to a 100k deduction possibility as they are now within the edge of my radar range. They may of not even registered when I read up on tax 5 years ago as, 65 seemed so far off then.  It gives a great check-off list for each individual to consider and reconfirm their own personal situation when considering to file (or Not). 

I'm watching, probably as a non-resident, for experience reports, this period, and then early 2025

[Mike Lister]

Everyone needs to move on, this thread was never closed but it was locked for a period of time, it has also been open for a few days also yet the same old conversation persists.

 

The reason it was locked was because it is over 6,300 posts long and newcomers to the thread were unable to find useful information easily. The simple tax guide has been produced and was pinned some time ago, it is being updated as new information comes to light. This thread exists for people to continue their discussions as they see fit.

 

Lastly there is a large disclaimer on the top of the first page of the tax guide so that everyone who reads it, understands it was created by members for members and not by certified Thai legal or tax advocates.

 

My I respectfully suggest that if you want to debate, that you debate and not consume more pages discussing yet again, past events that have been addressed.

[bdenner]

Thank you Mike,

I have many friends, living in the Issan rice paddies, but work within the off shore oil industry as I did. In the early 2000's I (no, they) payed Thai tax under a dodgy arrangement as a requirement for the work permit.

Most of em do not follow this forum but hearing the rumors and getting distressed.

Looking forward to reading your reports as they become available and passing them on.

 

Edited January 15 by bdenner
Clarification

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I agree with you 100%.

 

Speaking softly, politely, and gently I think a Tax Guide thread could perhaps give people a false sense of security in following its words - as it seems to be written by nontax professionals who are not native speakers of Thai (or near-native speakers). It also could open the forum up to legal issues if someone follows it and has problems...

 

Then again many people may prefer a tax guide thread as it is... and I am all for freedom of speech.

 

I love the Voltaire quote:

 

"I may detest what you have to say but I will die for your right to say it..."

 

 

I think there is room for both types of thread.  This issue is going to evolve over the next couple of years and it will be good to maintain a "go to" thread to check in with every now and again to see, if anything new has happened. You can just go back a few pages to see, if guys are discussing anything new.  Of course, these these lengthy threads contain a lot of information but not indexed or easily retrievable. So a tax guide thread is useful as a sort of summary too.  Legal liability?  A disclaimer helps, although there are many legal cases, where disclaimers and even signed waivers of rights are deemed unenforceable by courts. However, I expect the risk is minimal in this case. 

[Danderman123]

I have sad news: I just found out one of my aerospace companies is going public in 2024. Which means money is coming.

 

Terrible timing for me (in the context of this topic).

[Danderman123]

So, I am lounging in Copacabana, Brazil, part of 6 months outside of Thailand, wondering if there is an update on whether I will be required to file Thai income tax next year.

[Danderman123]

So, I am lounging in Copacabana, Brazil, part of 6 months outside of Thailand, wondering if there is an update on whether I will be required to file Thai income tax next year.

[Danderman123]

I received my US Social Security payment for January in my US bank, and duly used WISE to transfer the exact amount to my Thai bank.

 

And I am setting up month long stays in the Maldives and Turkey for May and June.

 

I am hoping that none of this is necessary, and this tax scheme will go the way of the digital wallet, the 300 baht tourist tax, closing the ganja shops, and other schemes that disappear.

[Mike Teavee]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:34 PM, Danderman123 said:

So, I am lounging in Copacabana, Brazil, part of 6 months outside of Thailand, wondering if there is an update on whether I will be required to file Thai income tax next year.

If you spend < 180 days in Thailand & earn less than 60K THB income from work/assets in Thailand then there is no need to file a Tax Return.

 

Edited January 18 by Mike Teavee

[sezze]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

If you spend < 180 days in Thailand & earn less than 60K THB income from work/assets in Thailand then there is no need to file a Tax Return.

 

I still think if your country is in the DTA (double tax agreement) then you should be ok . How they gonna check on all of this is a different matter ( what kind of papers are needed and when?).

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, sezze said:

I still think if your country is in the DTA (double tax agreement) then you should be ok . How they gonna check on all of this is a different matter ( what kind of papers are needed and when?).

It depends on you filing a tax return and declaring your income. The following will explain:

 

 

[Badrabbit]

Regarding my 3 pensions from the UK, I pay tax on all 3 in the UK, will I be required to now pay tax again on my Pensions here, I have not paid tax here in the 16 years of being here, a simple answer would be appreciated if anyone knows the answer, I am Completely confused with this thread.

[yozah]

GG I'm out of Thailand because of the new rule. What if I bring money to my thai bank account this year but I'm not tax resident. Next year I can come back to thailand and spend them tax free again?

[Danderman123]

11 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

If you spend < 180 days in Thailand & earn less than 60K THB income from work/assets in Thailand then there is no need to file a Tax Return.

 

I am vaccilating between 2 different strategies:

 

1) spend less than 180 days in Thailand

 

2) not transmit so much cash into Thailand that I am liable for filing a tax return. This entails me wiring a boatload of money to Thailand in 2023, and then only sending my US Social Security pension in 2024. And, using my US bank account to make major payments in Thailand.

 

I am hoping that the entire tax scheme goes away, however. I just can't see the hordes of retirees in Thailand filing tax returns in 2025.

[El Matador]

Haven't checked those threads in weeks.

Seems Thailand is lots of headaches now.

Tax reform, passport check at airports (although not a big deal), ban of cannabis, massive opening for China, India and Russia but still nothing better for European visa exemptions. This new government put good effort to make its country unattractive.

 

Malaysia and Philippines are the best for a base in South East Asia for visa and taxes. Visiting Thailand with a METV during the dry season seems the least bureaucratic and painful option those days by far.

[UKresonant]

9 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

Regarding my 3 pensions from the UK, I pay tax on all 3 in the UK, will I be required to now pay tax again on my Pensions here, I have not paid tax here in the 16 years of being here, a simple answer would be appreciated if anyone knows the answer, I am Completely confused with this thread.

 

Private and non-Government  UK pensions (Random Number Example)

Gross Pension 1 £15k - UK Tax £1k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

Gross Pension 2 £10k - UK Tax  £2k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

Gross Pension 3 £5k   - UK Tax £1k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

 

Gross Pension 1 £15k - Thai Tax £1.6k

Gross Pension 2 £10k - Thai Tax £1.8k

Gross Pension 3 £5k   - Thai Tax  £1.2k

 

Thai Tax £4.6k - UK Actual tax paid £4k applied as a tax credit. Circa £600 (if DTA article 23 3) applies) Thai  tax to Pay.

(Updated form from RD anticipated)

If your pensions were remitted to Thailand in past years the year after they were paid, no worries.

Should work something like that, but the practicalities, and what documents they would require is still mysterious to me

I'm not currently Tax Resident in Thailand, and will always have Ties to the UK. If your no longer Tied to the UK, and are out there all the time, maybe could get a NT tax code, and not have tax in the UK deducted?? (but not .Gov Pensions). 

 

Government pensions are only Taxed in the UK 
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

 

Whole variety of different factors, exchange rates timing, documentation, mood of the Tax assessor, any other income perhaps only allows a close approximation what it maybe.

 

I'm worried about getting caught between the two Tax Systems, as probably like your self, Tax is deducted automatically at source in the UK. 

Should I have to do a Thai Tax Return in The future, will the dream up documents I don't have, require them to be stamped by an entity that knows nothing about them before acceptance, might not be in Thailand  at time of filing. More worried about the practicalities of doing it now, rather than the structure which I know a little more of now.

[Mike Teavee]

22 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I am vaccilating between 2 different strategies:

 

1) spend less than 180 days in Thailand

 

2) not transmit so much cash into Thailand that I am liable for filing a tax return. This entails me wiring a boatload of money to Thailand in 2023, and then only sending my US Social Security pension in 2024. And, using my US bank account to make major payments in Thailand.

 

I am hoping that the entire tax scheme goes away, however. I just can't see the hordes of retirees in Thailand filing tax returns in 2025.

(Technically) if you spend > 179 days in Thailand and remit > 60K THB then you're liable to file a Tax return. Doesn't matter that this income is covered by a DTA, that will just mean that there is no tax to pay on it & it will be a "Nil Return".   

 

The reality thus far is they've let people decided for themselves whether any of the money they've remitted is taxable & whether they need to file a Tax Return, I don't see this changing anytime soon for somebody who's just bringing over US SS, but somebody who plans on transferring a large sum of money whilst being Tax Resident should probably file a return even if they know there's no Tax due at the end of it. 

 

FWIW I have the same plan, I'll live on the money I already have over her until either the situation becomes clearer & I feel safe bringing in my UK Rental/Dividend income (I'm 2 years away from getting the 1st of my pensions so this is the only income I get) OR spend 2026 non Tax resident during which I'll transfer over the 25% Tax Free lump sum I'll be taking when I get my pension*. 

 

*This 25% will be used to meet the $250,000 investment I need to make to get the Wealthy Pensioner Long Term Residency Visa (LTR), unless things change between now & then, this will mean that I don't have to pay Tax on income remitted in the same year it was earned once I have the Visa

 

If your income is >$80K pa OR is >$40K pa & you're willing to invest $250K (NB Existing Investments in Thailand count, so if you already had a Condo over her in your name that would count towards the $250K)  then it might be worth looking at getting an LTR.

Edited January 20 by Mike Teavee

[Danderman123]

The problem comes when someone is legally required to file a Thai tax return, but the process for including legal deductions (such as sums deducted due to DTA) are not yet resolved.

 

That's why I plan to stay in Thailand less than 180 days this year, and then monitor the outcome of the poor bastards who have to file tax returns in 2025.

 

It's probable that the handful of ex-pats in Thailand who are working, and who file tax returns already, will do just fine. The problem comes with 86 year old Edgar from Scotland who got their Non-O retirement visa extention denied because of lack of a 2025 Thai tax return.

[Badrabbit]

If I'm forced to pay tax on my UK pensions which I already pay tax on in the UK will I get a Social Security card giving me access to free Healthcare here?

Have I got untill Jan to March of 2025 to file a tax return once I get a Tax Identification number?

Has this come out yet or is it all hearsay at the moment?

[Danderman123]

48 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

If I'm forced to pay tax on my UK pensions which I already pay tax on in the UK will I get a Social Security card giving me access to free Healthcare here?

Have I got untill Jan to March of 2025 to file a tax return once I get a Tax Identification number?

Has this come out yet or is it all hearsay at the moment?

Which begs the question: who here has obtained a Thai tax identification number as a result of the new tax regulations?

[topt]

1 hour ago, Badrabbit said:

will I get a Social Security card giving me access to free Healthcare here?

No - not sure if you were being sarcastic.........

 

1 hour ago, Badrabbit said:

Has this come out yet or is it all hearsay at the moment?

Personally if I was you I would hold off until it is made clearer which may be many months.........

[topt]

37 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Which begs the question: who here has obtained a Thai tax identification number as a result of the new tax regulations?

KannikaP for one - as he keeps banging on about it.........

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Badrabbit said:

If I'm forced to pay tax on my UK pensions which I already pay tax on in the UK will I get a Social Security card giving me access to free Healthcare here?

Have I got untill Jan to March of 2025 to file a tax return once I get a Tax Identification number?

Has this come out yet or is it all hearsay at the moment?

No, non of those things

[Danderman123]

16 minutes ago, topt said:

 

 

Personally if I was you I would hold off until it is made clearer which may be many months.........

How can Thailand tax ex-pats for 2024 income if they don't make the rules clear in 2024?

[quake]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

Which begs the question: who here has obtained a Thai tax identification number as a result of the new tax regulations?

 

Not yet.

won't need one until 2025 or 2026

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

47 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

How can Thailand tax ex-pats for 2024 income if they don't make the rules clear in 2024?

The rules haven't changed for the 2024 tax filing, they are the same they've been for years. All that changes for next year is one small simple rule change which is extremely easy to understand. If you can't file this year it's because you have never filed before. Resident expats with overseas income have been filing taxes here for years.