Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, stat said:

In Thailand they want to make falangs pay tax while the average Thai pays nothing, as for falangs the law will be applied differently.

 

How applied differently? If both Thais and farangs are being honest in their assessable income declarations, the same deductions and allowances apply -- and the same taxes owed. You're saying Thais will be able to cheat, but no so farangs?

[Krit]

How can one obtain a Dividend Tax Voucher for US dividend income received while living in Thailand?

 

My broker offers these vouchers for multiple countries and they show the amount of tax withheld at source. For example, dividends from Swedish public companies have already been taxed 30% in Sweden, so there should be nothing to pay in Thailand when that 30% is claimed as tax credit in Thailand against Thai income tax.

 

US dividends paid to non-resident foreigners living in Thailand are subject to 15% withholding tax. But I cannot find info on how to prove these amounts, as similar Dividend Tax Vouchers do not seem to be available in the US. There is form 1042-S but that is a form, it's not signed by anyone. Is it necessary to file a tax return with the IRS to take advantage of the double tax agreement?

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

How applied differently? If both Thais and farangs are being honest in their assessable income declarations, the same deductions and allowances apply -- and the same taxes owed. You're saying Thais will be able to cheat, but no so farangs?

"You are not Thai!"

Have you never heard this excuse for applying the same rules differently for Thais and foreigners?

 

Examples:

 

According to sec 42(23) of the Revenue Code, mutual funds (no nationality mentioned) are tax-free.

But much earlier in this thread it has been pointed out that you probably shouldn't try this with foreign mutual funds.

 

A leading financial institution here treats Thais (de facto no report) and foreigners (report everybody, no matter where they are tax resident) differently when it comes to crs (see the CRS-thread).

 

Have you ever tried to buy government bonds? Foreigners are usually allowed to buy them, but the first reflex of many branch managers is: "You are not Thai!"

 

You have probably forgotten how the covid vaccines were handled. 

Thais found it  normal that a foreigner from a risk group doesn't get vaccinated. The idea that aliens are human and that generally the same rules apply for them as for Thais is completely alien to them.

 

 

 

 

 

[paddypower]

13 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

In a tax declaration you declare what your active / passive income is. What you own is something else.

wow! i never knew that. try rereading my post: i wrote that this was her opinion, not mine. don't debate something that is the point is irrelevant.

[paddypower]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Interesting. For taking a Thai tax credit on my US tax return, no supporting documentation is required. So far, I've only taken a credit for taxes withheld on my Bangkok Bank savings account. As this has been below $600, I only need to plug in the figure I arrived at on a single line on the tax return. Maybe in the future, if the new rules mean I have to declare my IRA payment on a Thai tax return, per DTA -- then if this is above $600, I'll need to fill out a Form 1116. Again, no Thai supporting paperwork required -- and a straightforward process, especially if using TurboTax.

 

I know you Old World folks get tired of hearing this -- but if Thailand's new rules require me to declare my IRA payment, there will be no additional cost to me, as Thailand gets to keep my taxes to fix pot holes, and the US loses the equivalent in taxes, due to tax credits. Finally, fairness: I now pay to fix a pot hole in Doi Saket, and no longer pay to fix a pot hole in East Jesus, Iowa.

 

Yawn.

never bothered to do that, on my Canuck tax reuturn. I wonder what supporting paperwork RevCan  asks for?

[paddypower]

7 hours ago, stat said:

The Thai government is the opposite of the German government. Whereas in Germany asylum seekers get lavish handouts for years (even after their asylum application has been denied) while the naive germans work and pay taxes to finance it all (being German I think I am allowed to qualify the Germans as naive). In Thailand they want to make falangs pay tax while the average Thai pays nothing, as for falangs the law will be applied differently.

Are many foreigners living here that naive? have you not yet discovered that everything in SE Asia is upsidedown, figuratively and literally?. we've managed to stay sane, retiring here for 28 years, by catching on pretty quickly.

Edited October 27, 2023 by paddypower
grammar

[stat]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Interesting. For taking a Thai tax credit on my US tax return, no supporting documentation is required. So far, I've only taken a credit for taxes withheld on my Bangkok Bank savings account. As this has been below $600, I only need to plug in the figure I arrived at on a single line on the tax return. Maybe in the future, if the new rules mean I have to declare my IRA payment on a Thai tax return, per DTA -- then if this is above $600, I'll need to fill out a Form 1116. Again, no Thai supporting paperwork required -- and a straightforward process, especially if using TurboTax.

 

I know you Old World folks get tired of hearing this -- but if Thailand's new rules require me to declare my IRA payment, there will be no additional cost to me, as Thailand gets to keep my taxes to fix pot holes, and the US loses the equivalent in taxes, due to tax credits. Finally, fairness: I now pay to fix a pot hole in Doi Saket, and no longer pay to fix a pot hole in East Jesus, Iowa.

 

Yawn.

Yeah below 600 USD maybe it below a substantial threshhold. In the old world everything needs to be documented. But apparently you missed the whole point. The point is you have to prove to the THAI RD that your pension or any monies you transfered is exempted.

[stat]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

How applied differently? If both Thais and farangs are being honest in their assessable income declarations, the same deductions and allowances apply -- and the same taxes owed. You're saying Thais will be able to cheat, but no so farangs?

I am saying that falangs will or could be targeted as they prove to be richer pickings. If you think everyone is treated equal in Thailand you have apparently never been to wonderful Thailand (police stops, park entry fee etc)

[DavisH]

Just now, stat said:

I am saying that falangs will or could be targeted as they prove to be richer pickings. If you think everyone is treated equal in Thailand you have apparently never been to wonderful Thailand (police stops, park entry fee etc)

you are saying wealthy Thais remitting money back to Thailand (which would be the majority of money coming in) would not pay tax on this money but 'farangs' will? What about wealthy Chinese or South Koreans? They get a free pass as well? 

[stat]

12 minutes ago, paddypower said:

Are many foreigners living here that naive? have you not yet discovered that everything in SE Asia is upsidedown, figuratively and literally?. we've managed to stay sane, retiring here for 28 years, by catching on pretty quickly.

The point I tried to make was that the Thai government will be putting their own people first which is quite usual in every country besides Germany on this planet. Pls read my post again: I was simply replying to some post claiming that the falangs will not pay taxes because the thais are not paying taxes. Just remember a police stop where only falangs pay for not wearing helmets.

[firefly17]

If sending money over from UK property sale, I take it this is ok (after Jan)? I take it its not classed as income. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:35 AM, jacko45k said:

Well I specifically opened one account here in Thailand to allow me to get a refund on withholding tax, as it seemed obligated to use them.... not sure if they kept the details. One UK bank asked my for TIN for Thailand once....(no threat implied). The association of needing a TIN to get an extension is not rumoured that I know of, and could be construed as fear mongering. But 'never say never' I suppose.

I have been told (in emails) by two Thai tax lawyers/accountants that they believe that in the future a TIN will be required for annual extensions for all Expats. They pointed out that all working/business Expats are required to do that for their annual extensions, and that they could expand that requirement to those on retirement and marriage too - if they wanted to.  According to one of them, if you are a Thai tax resident and you have revenue earned anywhere in the world and you bring money to Thailand, you are supposed to lodge a tax return and declare that. He stated that it is very unlikely that you would be required to pay any income taxes, and that is why they dont bother chasing non-working/business Expats for returns now.   But IMO they are both saying that to get business from me/Expats - but they could be right - and as you say - never say never. 

[Mike Lister]

I don't believe for one moment that TIN's will be required for Immigration/visa purposes, there is no natural link in the same way that TIN's are required for holders of Work Permits. In fact, there are several fairly recent reports of the RD not wanting to issue TIN's to resident expats, unless they had income they wanted to declare, there have been similar reports of RD wanting proof of year round residency, before issuing TIN's. Having a one year visa alone has not been sufficient grounds in the past to warrant issuance of TIN's to foreigners.

[Flyguy330]

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

16 hours ago, stat said:

Thailand gets to keep my taxes to fix pot holes,

Wrong, they never fix them, they recycle them into new potholes. This is one of their perpetual income generators.

[paddypower]

15 minutes ago, Flyguy330 said:

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

Great story, full of the truths about how wrong westerners can be, thinking that if you move to SE Asia, you will get away from all the rules and regulations and have it easy. In many ways, as you described, yes - it is a great region to move to. But,in the end, you have to be happy with your life, wherever you are and that's the philosophy my wife and I follow. 

[Ben Zioner]

27 minutes ago, Flyguy330 said:

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

FYI.  So far the Royal decree 743 still stands.

[stat]

2 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for you article and the good info on Malysia! Do you have any further info on how the remittance tax will be implemented in Malaysia?

 

However there seems to be a missunderstanding regarding the minium 15% tax.  The supposedly "worldwide" minimum tax is for corporations only, it does not apply to individuals! It is not even close to ww even for corps. Even stated in the article you linked "for corps only" in the headline so fear not! CRS or the minimum tax is NOT a reason for a remittance tax. However some politicians try to frame it in this way.

Edited October 28, 2023 by stat

[stat]

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

That is a very interesting story. my group (12 international investors 60 million baht) lost an apartment development to a loan shark. our group fought it through the court system, all the way to the Supreme Court. The response (on official letterhead of the Court clerk ) ''Ruling rejected on the grounds that it is not in the public interest''. The way I would summarize it - the odds are 99.9% stacked against you as an expat ''guest'' of the Kingdom.  we were all expat owner-couples, so doomed from the start.

This confirms my stance that I would not invest a substantial part of money in Thailand. Even just 800K Baht for a visa: I lose out on interest and in addition I do have the risk to lose the principal because of some law change. I know never happened before, the risk is low but it could happen. So as long as possibe I go with OA visas.

Edited October 28, 2023 by stat

[Celsius]

3 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I read every word you wrote.

 

One simple rule I would stick with in these uncertain times where rules can be changed overnight. 

 

Don't buy. Rent.

[beammeup]

4 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

good info. Looks like Malaysia is not much different. I am sure many of us were considering there

as an alternative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guavaman]

30 minutes ago, beammeup said:

good info. Looks like Malaysia is not much different. I am sure many of us were considering there

as an alternative.

A wise man once told me:

 

It looks like the grass is greener on the other side of the fence; but if you go look there, you will see that it is actually brown on both sides. 

[Klonko]

10 hours ago, firefly17 said:

If sending money over from UK property sale, I take it this is ok (after Jan)? I take it its not classed as income. 

AFAIK gains from property sale qualify as income under Thai tax law. I do wonder if it was possible to segregate the initial property investment amount in a separate account and transfer from such account as existing wealth in order to avoid DTA hassle.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Klonko said:

AFAIK gains from property sale qualify as income under Thai tax law. I do wonder if it was possible to segregate the initial property investment amount in a separate account and transfer from such account as existing wealth in order to avoid DTA hassle.

Capital Gains in Thailand are taxed at personal income tax rates, only the gain is taxable which should be easily seen from the CG tax return in the home country..

[StayinThailand2much]

58 minutes ago, beammeup said:

good info. Looks like Malaysia is not much different. I am sure many of us were considering there

as an alternative.

 

Will be interesting to see, whether foreign transfers will also be subject of such a 'remittance tax' in Thailand...

[beammeup]

1 hour ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Will be interesting to see, whether foreign transfers will also be subject of such a 'remittance tax' in Thailand...

wut?

[BusyB]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:09 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Think it’s supposed to be ROTFLOL…

 

Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud 

 

I prefer ROFLMAO 555

[TravelerEastWest]

17 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have been told (in emails) by two Thai tax lawyers/accountants that they believe that in the future a TIN will be required for annual extensions for all Expats. They pointed out that all working/business Expats are required to do that for their annual extensions, and that they could expand that requirement to those on retirement and marriage too - if they wanted to.  According to one of them, if you are a Thai tax resident and you have revenue earned anywhere in the world and you bring money to Thailand, you are supposed to lodge a tax return and declare that. He stated that it is very unlikely that you would be required to pay any income taxes, and that is why they dont bother chasing non-working/business Expats for returns now.   But IMO they are both saying that to get business from me/Expats - but they could be right - and as you say - never say never. 

I have had a work permit for many years and have never been asked for my TIN by immigration so I would be cautious with the advice given to you by the two lawyers. Are they also CPAs? Do they have special training in taxation?

 

Normally you have to have taxable income above a certain amount to be required to file - or is the law different in Thailand about that?

 

I have noticed that Thai accounting rules do not always follow GAAP but seem to be close. Thai tax laws are also normally easy to understand from a Western point of view.

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Capital Gains in Thailand are taxed at personal income tax rates, only the gain is taxable which should be easily seen from the CG tax return in the home country..

I wonder what would happen if… I bought a house for £100,000, sold it for £200,000 but only remitted £100,000, would this be classed as savings (let’s say the money to buy the house came from taxed income) or would they view it as the Capital Gains? 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I wonder what would happen if… I bought a house for £100,000, sold it for £200,000 but only remitted £100,000, would this be classed as savings (let’s say the money to buy the house came from taxed income) or would they view it as the Capital Gains? 

I think that if you did that you would have to file UK Capital Gains within 30 days and that would give you the paperwork you need to import the funds into Thailand. Nobody said you had to bring in the total amount in one go so the paperwork could be used several times.