Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Dust]

3 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

They scrubbed it, was on the old site back in 2019.

You can't scrub it from the wayback machine.  You can see yearly snapshots of the faqs and privileges going back to 2003. I checked one for 2019 and unsurprisingly I am unable to confirm your claim. 
https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/http://www.thailandelite.com  

[nomadinuk]

5 hours ago, Foxx said:

Great idea, apart from the fact that Wise doesn't let you hold balances in baht.

Yes, it is a good idea. See below. @Foxx

Edited September 18, 2023 by nomadinuk

[honcho]

16 hours ago, seajae said:

so does this mean all incoming money transfers from abroad, if so will they will be taxing pensions as well when they are transferred from other countries, sounds more like a huge money grab by the government if it does, they should only be able to tax money earnt from Thailand not savings etc that were/are earned in other countries. This will be challenged as it is outright theft if the money has nothing to do with Thailand earnings, only the country where it is earned or banked have the right to any taxes from it, the finer details are needed to make sure what they plan to do is legal and not jut a way to rip farangs off 

tell that to usa... they tax americans worldwide.... you must give up your usa passport to get them off your back....

[Thorgal]

10 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Nope...

 

I posted above the complete translation plus here 

From your own post and link  page 11 :

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50748/new-tax-regulations-raises-questions-and-concerns/

 

Thailand’s Revenue Department has recently thrown a curveball at tax residents with its new tax guidelines on foreign income. According to legal experts, the policy appears to have three specific targets: residents trading in foreign stock markets through foreign brokerages, cryptocurrency traders, and Thais who have been exploiting a loophole that allowed them to bring foreign earnings into the country tax-free after keeping it in an offshore account for more than a calendar year.

 

No mention of new Thai income tax regulations for farang pensioners, digital nomads and long stay expats...

[fusion58]

14 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

I'm pretty sure I won't pay any tax, otherwise I am confident that being required to do so would be enough to convince my wife to finally leave this cesspool. We could live a way better life back in the states, and only have to deal with setting up a green card , no more 90 days, money in the bank, TM30's, Re-Entry permits, etc. Just way less hassles, and we could all come and go from the USA whenever we want without being hassled by the likes of the Thai Mafia.

My sentiments exactly, and my exit plan is already in motion. ????????

[Dust]

5 minutes ago, honcho said:

tell that to usa... they tax americans worldwide.... you must give up your usa passport to get them off your back....

American digital nomads that are working remotely outside of the US for a specific period of time can deduct up to 120k on their US taxes.  This doesn't work for most forms of passive income though.  Nonetheless its possible in some cases to get them off your back for the majority of your federal taxes on regular income except for social security and medicare which you still must pay.

[Billybaroo]

15 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

Thailand to tourists—please come.

Thailand to expats—please leave.

There is still a lot more to the fine print, but even tourists could be impacted in the most broad terms. I am in Thailand 2 months out of the year. I wire money from the US to my Thai bank account. Will the wired funds get taxed during the transfer process? 

[Thorgal]

9 minutes ago, Billybaroo said:

There is still a lot more to the fine print, but even tourists could be impacted in the most broad terms. I am in Thailand 2 months out of the year. I wire money from the US to my Thai bank account. Will the wired funds get taxed during the transfer process? 

No, because :

 

1. you're not a tax resident if you stay -180 days in Thailand per year

2. you don't work during your stay or generate income in Thailand

3. Thailand likes you a lot

[Billybaroo]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

No, because :

 

1. you're not a tax resident if you stay -180 days in Thailand per year

2. you don't work during your stay or generate income in Thailand

3. Thailand likes you a lot

  I agree. I already began to hear about the >180 day provision. Presumably, that would affect more foreigners on a retirement visa than just the average long stay tourist. 

[Puccini]

14 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I guess they've started getting the CRS information returned and licking their chops at the opportunity.

What do you mean with CRS?

 

From acronym.com:

[K2938]

4 minutes ago, Puccini said:

What do you mean with CRS?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Reporting_Standard

Edited September 18, 2023 by K2938

[kiwikeith]

17 hours ago, connda said:

Eventually someone is going to write, "Does that mean farang's pension income too."

Short answer would probably be "No," at least for those countries with bilateral tax agreements with Thailand.  If you're paying income tax in your home countries, then Thailand has no claim to tax the income twice.

That's how I read it as well 

[ukrules]

49 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

No mention of new Thai income tax regulations for farang pensioners, digital nomads and long stay expats...

Where it says 'tax residents' that's anyone who stays more than 180 days a year and it will technically open a lot of us up to additional taxation, especially those who don't pay any tax on their income

 

 

[Billybaroo]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If you're living in Thailand most of the time you're technically a tax resident in Thailand. You're conflating tax residency with US global taxation of US citizens. Being a tax resident of Thailand does not stop that. Only renouncing US citizenship stops that.

  Correct. Living outside the US for more than 11 months out of the year just changes how you are taxed as a US citizen, not that you are taxed. So, living in Thailand as a US citizen under that criteria would change who and how one is taxed as a US citizen. 

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, honcho said:

tell that to usa... they tax americans worldwide.... you must give up your usa passport to get them off your back....

Yeah, it would likely be double taxation. There’s no way the Usa would forfeit taxes because of some tax agreement with Thailand. Trying to do that would likely open yourself up to an audit as well with the associated difficulties of not being in the USA and getting notices, etc. Better to just pay tax and stay under the radar. It looks like Thai banks report to the IRS as well. I don’t even want a Thai account at this point.

Edited September 18, 2023 by JimTripper

[Billybaroo]

15 hours ago, QuantumQuandry said:

Not all retirement money is taxed in home countries.  Disability or tax-exempt bonds, for example.  Other money is taxed but not in a normal manner (Roth IRAs, for example).  Will Thailand be up on the tax rules of other countries?  Will they even try to honor them?  Can't see that ending well.

  In the US it is, eventually. Just a point of clarification. 

[Billybaroo]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

The US taxman taxes ALL income worldwide for US taxpayers.

  Up to a point. US citizens working abroad for more than 11 months out of the year are taxed far less than US citizens working in the US. 

[Thorgal]

8 hours ago, ukrules said:

Where it says 'tax residents' that's anyone who stays more than 180 days a year and it will technically open a lot of us up to additional taxation, especially those who don't pay any tax on their income

 

 

A tax-resident (+180 days in LOS) will be taxable on income from all sources in Thailand on a cash basis regardless of where the money is paid, and on the portion of income that is brought into Thailand in the same year that it is earned.

 

A tax-non-resident (-180 days in LOS) is only taxable on income from sources in Thailand.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

they don't need as OECD/CRS shares that information with them directly.

Interesting...  None of my UK Banks could share my account transactions information with Thailand as they are not aware of my Thailand Tax Identifier Number, 1 (Virgin One now Natwest) has asked for it & was ignored as I didn't have one at that time, the other (Barclays) has recently started to close accounts for people who are Non-UK resident for other "Operational" reasons so have never asked for it.

 

My Singapore Bank (Citi) knows I live in Thailand, even sends me new Debit cards here, but has never mentioned needing to know anything about my banking/Tax details here. 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Puccini said:

What do you mean with CRS?

 

From acronym.com:

OECD's Common Reporting Standard... 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/

 

 

[BE88]

7 hours ago, mran66 said:

...don't forget that I recall it was Mr Big Joke who was behind changing the retirement visa requirement from "800k for 2mo" to "800k for 2+3 mo + 400k for 7mo".

 

As far as I can see, the primary if not only reason for that change was to encourage more retirees to skip the legal route, and get the 10+k bribe per renewal to immigration officers.

 

Seems Big Joke still thinks too many people skipping the agency approach, and sticking to legal way, thus he need to increase the requirements further to get more people to bribe the immigration staff and forget the bank approach

You may be right, corruption rules this country.

 

[HuskerDo2]

“…those that have earnings from occupation or business abroad or wealth that is located abroad…and has brought these assets into Thailand must factor this into their personal income tax for the year.”

 

"will see all income from abroad taxed as personal income tax regardless of whether it was earned income or savings."

 

So if you transfer money there from your savings you have to pay tax on it. Sounds like the only resort is to use an ATM to withdraw money. The ATM fees will most likely cost less than paying tax on transfers.

 

These jokers are doing all they can to make life more difficult for expats and drive them to other countries. Amazingly stupid decision. 

[Dogmatix]

6 hours ago, h3ith said:

Could be worse: Assume you purchased Apple or Amazon stock 10 or 20 years ago. If you sell them and transfer cash to TH to buy a condo, 90% of the amount would be old capital gains. Would TH revenue office calculate the capital gain starting with the stock price on 31 Dec 2023? Or the original stock purchase price of 10 years ago?

Or if your original savings of 100,000 came from your after-tax salary, 10 or 20 years ago, how do you prove to the TH tax office that this original capital should not be taxed as Thai income because the money had already been taxed by the home country? 

The problem is that this is just a paragraph ordering RD officers to ignored previous interpretation of Section 41 which was obviously what it was intended to mean and interpret it differently in a way that was not intended by the drafters of the Revenue Code. This is to avoid having to get an amendment to the law passed by parliament which PT might not be able to do, being dependent on it’s coalition partners who might not like the idea of paying tax on corruption money banked offshore. Srettha also wants to deflect criticism that his digital wallet is unfunded and will increase govt debt and can’t wait for a transparent legal amendment which might fail anyway. So there is no fine print to guide implementation.

 

Basically Thai taxpayers who pay tax on Thai stock market capital gains, eg Thai corporates, get no inflation index tax relief on realized long term capital gains. In addition there are no reduced rates for capital gains which are treated as normal income in the year they are rrealized. So your long term gains would be the sale price of the stock minus the original purchase price taxed at the top marginal rate of Thai tax. 
 

Since there is no legislation or regulations supporting this, as it is just a deliberate misinterpretation of existing law, there is no time limit on past overseas income other than the date you became Thai tax resident. So technically you could try to prove that salary  And capital gains were earned before that. For those in Thailand for many years good luck with that.

[Dogmatix]

This could end up being a remittance tax, if banks send information on inflows to the RD which then checks up tax returns of tax residents to see, if they declared the income or even submitted a tax return at all. The way they work it could take several years before they summon you for questioning. It happened to me in 2021 when I was summoned for a whole day grilling about my company’s tax payments in 2016, 2017 and 2019. They can go back 20 years on most tax issues I think. Then you would need detailed records to show how the income was generated and taxed which they could ask you to translate into Thai and definitely would if in a language other than English. For many it would be easier to pay the assessed tax, penalties and interest or just flee the country.

[alanrchase]

It seems this is nothing to do with xenophobia or a money grab by the Thai government. The conditions have been forced upon Thailand by your own Western governments imposition of the Common Reporting Standard. Sorry for the long link but couldn't find a quick way to shorten it on Android. 

 

https://sherrings.com/common-reporting-standard-crs-tax-laws-thailand.html#:~:text=The Common Reporting Standard&text=It is a standard set,financial information that is exchanged.

[Dogmatix]

The point not mentioned anywhere yet is that the RD is saying you have to report these offshore earnings in your tax return in the year after remitting them to Thailand and the RD will have access to information from the Thai bank that processed it and will have access to information from your overseas accounts showing year end balances and inflows into the accounts, if you use a Thai address or are a Thai citizen. 
 

It is not like you will get a tax bill when remit the money. You will sit and wait for years to see if they come after you with demands for back tax, penalties and interest, if you didn’t fully declare it. If you did declare something but assumed double tax relief, they could ask for the evidence. Similarly if you didn’t file at all on the basis of double tax relief. They don’t have enough inspectors to do all this but can select cases to pursue at random. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Dogmatix

[PingRoundTheWorld]

3 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Similarly if you didn’t file at all on the basis of double tax relief. They don’t have enough inspectors to do all this but can select cases to pursue at random. 

Presumably if you're a citizen of a country with an anti double taxation agreement they wouldn't bother with you at all. Sounds like this whole thing is aimed at Thais evading taxes, not foreigners. But again it remains to be seen how this is actually applied.

[Tom H]

12 hours ago, jonclark said:

Oh right..I'm a tax resident....I always thought I was a guest in Thailand. So do I have resident status now lol. 

No you are not, thats why you wont pay. Only tax residents like i.e. Tim Newton from TNT who works in Thailand and might transfer some funds from Australia to T.???? to finance his hotel:).

 

If you invest in a Condo and you are a tax resident … I guess the lobby from Sansiri will have a word with the new Finance Minister????

[HarrySack]

Maybe it’s time for the 1% to contribute a bit more…
According to an article in the BP the rich 1% owns almost 67% of the country’s wealth… 
That’s incredible… Amazing Thailand…

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Social Media
Bangkokpost link removed as per forum rules.

[Bangkok Barry]

19 hours ago, scorecard said:

Could also be that the individual amount of pension received by some folks is under the Thai personl tax threshhold.

Which is?