Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[stat]

22 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Would CRS not be a concern to 99.9999% of people who fly under the radar in order to avoid paying tax ?
 

 

Your second misconception is this

 

 

Doesn't really matter ' what Thailand wants ' By joining CRS, Thailand will follow the rules and regulations set out by the OECD.

 

Pls let me know where the OECD CRS stipulated how and if Thailand or any other nation will collect taxes or how much the taxes will be on a personal income level? Apparently I missed it, while I was reading the hundreds of pages which you obviously have not.

 

CRS is just an information report on offshore accounts, nothing more nothing less. The only rules and regulations CRS stipulates is how to prepare the report and where and when to send it etc.

 

Pls enlighten us in which capacity you work in the financial industry, so everyone knows the level of expertise you have.

Edited December 23, 2023 by stat

[foreverlomsak]

One thing comes to mind and that is job creation, I've not seen anything alluding to this, Thai Government is very good at that everything has got to be vetted at least twice by different people.

So would the enlargement of the Thai Revenue staff to handle many more end of year submissions be a significant labor problem.

[stat]

4 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

I would imagine that the onus will be on us to prove that the remittance was not into Thailand and no doubt, as someone earlier on in this or another thread mentioned had happened to him in the past, the tax man will request (demand) statements from all bank a/cs inside and outside Thailand.

The guy who mentioned that they wanted all! statements said that finally he was not asked to show all statements. If i remember correctly he was asked by immigration and not Thai RD.

 

There is no way someone can prove that he has not remitted money into Thailand. It is my understanding that RD must prove that you have transmitted funds. Again CRS does not show any remittances.I think it is a very very remote possibility that they will demand all account statements. If you are afraid just get gifts from your family and you should be on the safe side.

 

BTW: I have customers that have 2000 page statements for 1 year per account.

[Danderman123]

7 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Howzabout with facial recognition -- every ATM machine in Thailand has a video recoding of the transaction ( I believe)

 

And Immigration has phots linked to passport from their offices and at the airports of entry.

Great. I will have my Thai girlfriend make the ATM withdrawals.

 

 

Or wear a facemask.

[The Cyclist]

38 minutes ago, stat said:

Pls let me know where the OECD CRS stipulated how and if Thailand or any other nation will collect taxes or how much the taxes will be on a personal income level?

 

I let you know when you can point out where I said any such thing.

 

I specifically mentioned and you quoted it, identifying tax residency.

 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is a global standard for the automatic exchange of financial account information.
Developed to combat tax evasion
by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) at the request of the G20, CRS builds on the US Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
For further information on CRS please refer to the below website: http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic- exchange//

 

Surely someone of your expertise would gladly acknowledge that one of the methods of combatting tax evasion /  avoidance would be to nail down someones tax residency.

 

 

[Lorry]

10 hours ago, jacko45k said:

My only thought is if they can get foreign banks to give details of customers holding accounts registered to a Thailand address.

Not difficult. 

It's exactly what CRS is for.

The RD will learn from CRS that you have a bank account in a foreign country, which bank and which account number,  also the balance at year's end (if less than 25 satang, maybe they don't care - if more than 1m USD, they may be very interested)

They can ask you for the statements of this bank account, preferably of the last 10 years (why should they bother to ask the bank - they just let you do the work). They can ask you to explain all transactions, with documentation.

If a transaction says "CC payment to Elephant Shop, CM", its easy for them. 

If you bought and payed the elephant through Amazon, things are getting difficult - difficult for you, not for them. They can ask you for proof of what you bought until they are satisfied. 

 

Whether this would be considered tax evasion (in the UK it would be), we don't know.  Probably yes, according to the last AmCham webinar

 

It's not "scan all CC > find transactions > find suspect"

It's "scan all bank accounts (in the whole world), done automatically by CRS > find suspect > find transactions"

Edited December 23, 2023 by Lorry

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, stat said:

What issue do you see arising from CRS? Pls read my post carefully. No taxes arises from making money in an offshore account while being a TH tax resident. ONLY the remittance will trigger thai tax and CRS does not show remittances into Thailand.

You're right, there's no CRS/Tax issue as long as you do not remit any money in Thailand while being TH tax resident.

I just wanted to point out the fact that CRS information sharing affects only non-resident account holders.

[UKresonant]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

If your foreign bank doesn't know you live in Thailand they won't send information to Thailand through CRS. They will send information to Thailand only if they have reason to believe you may be a Thai tax resident. 

Reason to believe like

- you gave them a Thai address 

- you gave them a Thai phone number

- you gave power of attorney to a person in  Thailand

etc

 

Also if all your home country cards, transactions are in Thailand over a long period,  a home country bank  will likely to ask you to clarify your tax residency situation 

[Lorry]

49 minutes ago, stat said:

What is your point?

I was answering to another post. My point was, clarifying how CRS works. No recommendations.  Recommendations would depend on the individual case.

 

51 minutes ago, stat said:

If Thai RD really wants to see all transaction from every account I think 70% of people with investment income north of 100K p.a. will leave or will never come

This view would support the theory that they are targeting Thais with investment income from abroad. They are not going to leave. 

[ukrules]

16 hours ago, Trippy said:

No, I mean that all proof will be the the ex-pats responsibility no matter the situation. The question might arise, if your going to stay less than 180 days, then why do you need a non-imm visa?

 

Thailand Elite, 1 year stamp for each entry and can extend or just leave and re-enter - 1 year, every entry - guaranteed.

[jerrymahoney]

17 hours ago, Trippy said:

I hope it doesn't come to this, but I can see immigration starting a no tax return, no LT visa issued. All the responsibility will be on the ex-pat. 

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2021
(ภ.ง.ด.90)
For taxpayers who received incomes not only from employment 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide90.pdf

[jerrymahoney]

9 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

17 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Howzabout with facial recognition -- every ATM machine in Thailand has a video recoding of the transaction ( I believe)

 

And Immigration has phots linked to passport from their offices and at the airports of entry.

Great. I will have my Thai girlfriend make the ATM withdrawals.

 

 

Or wear a facemask

So it would look that you would not just using foreign-sourced ATM withdrawals to avoid taxation but you would maybe feel the need to obfuscate those ATM withdrawals to evade taxation.

Edited December 23, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[jacko45k]

18 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Howzabout with facial recognition -- every ATM machine in Thailand has a video recoding of the transaction ( I believe)

 

And Immigration has phots linked to passport from their offices and at the airports of entry.

I will keep my Joe Biden mask on!  

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, Lorry said:

Not difficult. 

Yes, theoretically. 

That would be a great net to cast as I presume it would include Thai people. They might get that organized by the time my funeral occurs, I plan on being sent to my grave with a raised middle finger. 

[Ben Zioner]

5 hours ago, stat said:

France, Germany whereever and you pay more taxes then you would ever pay in TH

That's plain  wrong. I checked for France, where they tax the family unit. With a wife and two kids I'd  pay about half of what I would pay here on my full income. Maybe a hint for fixing the Thai natality problem mentioned on another thread. Single  people get hammered  there but about at  the same level as here, in the 30%  bracket.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

I will keep my Joe Biden mask on!  

If you feel the need to hide your ATM transactions then I guess a Joe Biden mask is as good as any.

[Thailand J]

Looks like everyone has a way out.

For most LTR visa holders, income from previous year is tax exempted by RD 473.

For non LTR visa holders, income and prior savings from 2023 are tax exempted per Thai RD Departmental Instruction No. Por 162/2566. https://kpmg.com/th/en/home/insights/2023/11/th-tax-news-flash-issue-146.html

[Ben Zioner]

42 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

Looks like everyone has a way out.

For most LTR visa holders, income from previous year is tax exempted by RD 473.

For non LTR visa holders, income and prior savings from 2023 are tax exempted per Thai RD Departmental Instruction No. Por 162/2566. https://kpmg.com/th/en/home/insights/2023/11/th-tax-news-flash-issue-146.html

That's correct. But since I am a cautious guy, I'll do as if RD 743 wasn't there. I'll reassess by mid 2025.

 

Also, everyone seems to think that under RD 743 income must be seasoned one year, is that correct?

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[Danderman123]

According to prior posts, most Thais are liable for income tax, but the reality is that few do.

 

My opinion is that January 1 will come and go with zero impact on most ex-pats. It won't be noticed.

 

What would catch their attention would be the Immigration Dept requiring a tax return as a requirement for renewing visas (this could happen no earlier than 2026). I'm not saying this happen, though.

[UKresonant]

58 minutes ago, Thailand J said:

Looks like everyone has a way out.

For most LTR visa holders, income from previous year is tax exempted by RD 473.

For non LTR visa holders, income and prior savings from 2023 are tax exempted per Thai RD Departmental Instruction No. Por 162/2566. https://kpmg.com/th/en/home/insights/2023/11/th-tax-news-flash-issue-146.html

 

The problem may be having them accept pre 2023 savings, that it has been taxed already (non-LTR)

Just watched this at time 14:50 where a similar concern is raised. 

 My savings were configured for the old rule, to bring from previous year (if required), but were not isolated or documented for 6 years down the road to prove they were post-taxation.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by UKresonant

[Thailand J]

Keep your 2023 year end financial account statements. If you tranfer part of the balance in the future years it's tax exempted per DI 162/2566.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Thailand J

[foreverlomsak]

11 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Also if all your home country cards, transactions are in Thailand over a long period,  a home country bank  will likely to ask you to clarify your tax residency situation 

My UK bank has my Thai address, always have had (I have no UK address for 20 years), since the account was opened by the bank during one of the periodic shuffling of ownerships, I don't use their CC due to the transaction charges involved. Recently they have started asking for my tax residency details and Tax ID numbers (UK and Thai).

[bugger bognor]

The typical yank trying to import his lifestyle to Thailand what a prick with his money and he can't be happy in Thailand he is the problem thank god he's going back 

[The Cyclist]

5 hours ago, UKresonant said:

The problem may be having them accept pre 2023 savings, that it has been taxed already (non-LTR)

 

I have said repeatedly throughout the thread that a major issue might be proving that 

 

* Money remitted is from savings.

 

* It has previously been taxed.

 

His top 5 reasons for leaving Thailand

 

1. Heat and humidity, so bad that he sometimes cannot leave the house.

 

2. Conditions

 

3. Not where I want to live and die

 

4. Repos have driven the price of  his truck down.

 

5. He is flapping over something that may or may not happen.

 

Each to their own, and that equally applies to everyone on the thread.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

The typical yank trying to import his lifestyle to Thailand what a prick with his money and he can't be happy in Thailand he is the problem thank god he's going back 

Airlines keep obese guys like that as Pilot. Wonder how many gallons he had to factor in for his own weight when refuelling.

 

But as he keeps talking I tend to agree with him.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[quake]

6 hours ago, UKresonant said:

 

 

 

What a big fat pussy, didn't even make 2 years.

No respect.  

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by quake

[stat]

15 hours ago, Lorry said:

I was answering to another post. My point was, clarifying how CRS works. No recommendations.  Recommendations would depend on the individual case.

 

This view would support the theory that they are targeting Thais with investment income from abroad. They are not going to leave. 

You wrote: "If your foreign bank doesn't know you live in Thailand they won't send information to Thailand through CRS. They will send information to Thailand only if they have reason to believe you may be a Thai tax resident.  " So there is your recommendation.

 

You clearly imply that you actually live in TH in your example and do not want that your CRS information is send to TH. Pls read your post again. Regarding your theory it is just that, no one knows what they will make of it or whom they are targeting. They made up a directive without thinking it through.

[stat]

13 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2021
(ภ.ง.ด.90)
For taxpayers who received incomes not only from employment 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide90.pdf

Thanks! The big question is if the income theshold is 60K Baht is for asseasable income or total income. What this shows is that they could always make it look like tax evasion.

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks! The big question is if the income theshold is 60K Baht is for asseasable income or total income. What this shows is that they could always make it look like tax evasion.

Not a big question at all, most countries specify the criteria for filing a tax return, in many cases the threshold is as low as GBP 1,000 or is left open by saying, "any income".

[UKresonant]

Just now, stat said:

Thanks! The big question is if the income theshold is 60K Baht is for asseasable income or total income. What this shows is that they could always make it look like tax evasion.

 

It would be likely if over 179 days I'm obliged to do a tax return anyway...

"(2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year"