Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 hours ago, placnx said:

It's not so simple. I used to live in France, and in 1979 the France-US tax treaty was revised and non-working American residents were subject to French tax on worldwide income. The treaty had a new provision to allow Americans extra credit on their US tax returns to compensate for the new situation. It was very complicated, so I and another 20000 Americans moved.

Thanks for letting me know - I did not know that.  When it comes to taxation it is never easy.

Lets hope the same end game situation does not happen again, and this time 200,000 Expats leave Thailand.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, stat said:

It is my understanding that US citizens that earn under 100K USD a year do not pay taxes to Uncle Sam, at least that is what a US guy told me.

Me thinks he better keep quiet and stay hidden ????

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

Yes, bringing Social Security direct to a separate Thai bank account seems like a safe idea.  The reason I don’t do it now—I get a better rate with Wise than a bank exchange rate, and I have no control on the rate when SS comes in near the beginning of the month.  Right now, I have the luxury of waiting for the best rate.

I think that if you can prove a paper trail - pension to bank account - bank acccount to wise - wise to Thai Bank, then you 'should' be OK. I say should because that would be 'compliance' under any western Govt taxation rules and regs, but who knows how the Thai RD will see that, and what documents would they demand you provide to 'prove' the matgter.  Translated? Notarised? Signed by a Director at the Bank?? 

 

There are three things that for me are the major problems.  One is of course will Thai RD believe that my transfers into Thailand are taxable income. Two is as per above, what sort of hoops and jumps and expenses and troubles will I have to go through and over in order to provide the Thai RD what they demand.  And number three is the Big One ????

 

Number thgree is that unlike most 'offences' like speeding, and others like our annual ever-changing dealings with Thai Immigration, liable taxation is a 'permanent' problem. Those other things are a once off event and although they can be annoying or painful, they go away each year. Liable Taxation is like Murder, it never goes away and if/when you are caught out, the investigation and punishment is backdated. That is what seriosuly worries me. In 5-8-10-12 years time I receive a letter from Thai RD claiming that I owe millions of baht in back taxes, advising me that my passport has been 'held' and any attempt to leave Thailand before finalisation of the issue is a criminal offence and will be severely punishable (and will be an admission of guilt). 

 

Imagine driving/riding around with the worry that if you are caught speeding today, the police will also fine you for every speeding offence you committed over the last 5-8-10-12 years, plus add penalties. That is what it is like when it comes to being nailed with taxation breaches - it was how they got Al Capone.  From the most hardened criminals right through to the 'mai pen rai' folks, tyhey all know that you do not mess with the taxation department.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, RafPinto said:

But as the Thai girls always say - 'up to you'. 

And they say: You are thinking too much.

Maybe True - Maybe Not. 

I do know that anyone who rides a scooter without a helmet needs to think a bit more.

IMO Forwarned is Forearmed.

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

What part of ANY, don't you understand?

Any? I have got many.

 

What I don't understand is what you are getting at - or are you just trolling again.

 

 

I would be asking about specific qualifications, if it was indeed relevant at all. 

 

Which it isn't.

[hotandsticky]

13 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Moreover Wise transfers, as many other P2P money remittance solutions, are local transfers not international inward wire transfers.

Yet, recognised by Immigration as such for satisfying foreign income requirements.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Not likely. According to a recent BP article, there were (only) 156,596 expats in 2022. Exchange rates are mostly influenced by a strong/weak dollar, the crude oil price, or if Thailand's exports slump significantly.

That 150K is the number of employed 'well off' Expats in Thailand - and the largest group is the Japanese.  That number is reliable because the numbers are counted and monitored by the Thai Govt.

It is estimated that there are about 250-300K 'well off' Expats who are either retired or marrried or digital nomads etc. Expats being any foreigner that stays in Thailand over 180 days in a year. That number is not counted or monitored as such - each Province does it differently and most do not count how many. 

They also estimated (at peak) that 1.5 to 2 million 'poorer' workers were in Thailand working (legally and illegally) with the vast majority being from the bordering countries.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, John Drake said:

So all those of us from the US need to do is submit our IRS filings (which includes our social security numbers, financial status, home address, phone numbers, and bank accounts) to the Thai tax department and where it goes and how it's used, who knows??? No chance of it being passed along to people working illegally in the US for identity theft. Nope, not at all.

Good Point John. I had not thought about that one.  Employees at Thai RD would be a serious risk.

Did you know that when that Malaysian flight 370 'disappeared' many years ago, that of the 272 passengers 19 of them had false passports.  That is also what is done with 'stolen' personal information - and the number one source is first world people visiting third world countries.  I always let the wife make rural hotel bookings in her name plus husband - and then wait outside while she checks in. Give Somchai at the 'Royal Cheapie Resort' in Issan my passport - none and buckleys.  OK at Marriott or Amari - but not the cheapies. 

[freeworld]

21 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

problem is they will clarify on the 31st December 2023 (if not later) then there is no time for planning ... other than keeping below the 180 days in Thailand

So everyone can meet an accountant and get advice to prepare for the future.

[freeworld]

57 pages now of discussion.

 

If people want the correct advice and to prepare they should seek professional accounting tax advice for their own personal position related to tax.

[freeworld]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Many years ago tax certificates were required for people who had been ini country, presumably over 6 months. My pals passport was blocked in USA because his ex was disputing the alimony!

Some countries when a person returns home, the tax office want to see the tax residence certificate that taxes were paid on income for each year whilst one was living/working abroad. If the tax paid is lower than the home country during those years then additional tax has to be paid.

[redwood1]

4 minutes ago, freeworld said:

So everyone can meet an accountant and get advice to prepare for the future.

My accountant has told me to take all the rubbish and throw it in the trash can......He said thats the best way to plan for my future......I have to agree, my accountant is a smart guy....

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

The LTR visa came from the previous government and in particular was the brainchild of ML Chayothid who was an advisor to the energy minister who pushed this project at the cabinet level for him. Chayothid was hoping for a ministry or at least a deputy minister role in this government with UTN but unfortunately was left out in the cold completely. So there is no champion for the LTR policy in this government and the BOI, which runs it is under the PM’s office. Of the million LTRs targeted by the Prayut government I think they have only bagged a small fraction of that so far, while the government seems focused on low end tourists from China, Kazakhstan et al for the moment. 

I don’t see any likelihood of reneging on LTR visas or the Royal Decree at the moment but I can also see them making a fairly restricted interpretation of the Royal Decree. We have already got the interpretation that only income earned after the visa was issued is exempt which is quite restrictive. Srettha and the RD may well feel that the LTR exemption is irksome in that it is inconsistent with his spur of the moment brainfart policy and clearly the LTR exemption would never even have been considered by this government.  So I would guess the chances of erring on the generous side in future interpretations of the exemption may be limited.

This article from a while back shows that this was always coming: Newly released Royal Act for the Exchange of Info.... - KPMG Thailand   The Junta overlooked telling people, especially the applicants for the LTR and Elite Visas, and they did nothing about preparing for it.  The Junta allowed many of those target organisations and people to move money into and out of Thailand, using that 'tax free' arrangement - especially the Chinese based 'mafia' (some say 'overlords').  The Thai RD were not prepared, even though this has been coming for years, because the Junta was 'otherwise occupied' and never gave them the 'go ahead'.

 

This sudden move to comply with 'international obligations' with regards to the 'trafficking' of money by terrorist and illegal organisations will start on Jan 1 2024 because the Thai Govt are desperate for funds. After many years of inaction, this should have been announced for 2025 - giving the Thai RD time to prepare. But I  am sure that the new PM decided to implement the change immediately, once they got a good look at the books and realised how bad things really are.  A suspicious person might say that the months of delay in getting a new Govt in place had something to do with both avoiding a disaster (Pita tearing them all apart) and also so that those who needed to move 'things' here and there, had the necessary time to do so. 

 

Either way, whatever the reasons, this is happenning and the Thai RD is not prepared, and we Expats could be caught up in the net, and it would be wise IMO to stay across this issue. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, hotandsticky said:

Any? I have got many.

What I don't understand is what you are getting at - or are you just trolling again.

I would be asking about specific qualifications, if it was indeed relevant at all. 

Which it isn't.

I would ignore the guy mate - judging by his past 'activity' I have added him/her/it to my blocked list. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

31 minutes ago, freeworld said:

57 pages now of discussion.

If people want the correct advice and to prepare they should seek professional accounting tax advice for their own personal position related to tax.

Yep 57 pages and it is totally voluntary - both to read and write.

 

Noen of the That taxation professionals know - and that is the problem.  But even then, as my accountants back home always advised over the years - it is worth knowing and doing what is needed BEFORE it becomes a problem, rather than waiting until it is a problem.  I will never forget the best example - "they are going to start taxing money in super funds over xyz amount and I suggest over the next month or two you move abc funds into your bla bla investment accounts". Sure enough, 3 months later the Govt announced new taxation rates for super funds - applicable immediately.  If you know of a taxation expert in Thailand that has all the answers and knows exactly what and how the Thai RD is going to do it, please pray tell us all.  Meanwhile I am interested in hearing what others think and any information, and I will likewise share what I think and information I find about what wil happen after Jan 1 2024 - voluntarily. 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Good Point John. I had not thought about that one.  Employees at Thai RD would be a serious risk.

Did you know that when that Malaysian flight 370 'disappeared' many years ago, that of the 272 passengers 19 of them had false passports.  That is also what is done with 'stolen' personal information - and the number one source is first world people visiting third world countries.  I always let the wife make rural hotel bookings in her name plus husband - and then wait outside while she checks in. Give Somchai at the 'Royal Cheapie Resort' in Issan my passport - none and buckleys.  OK at Marriott or Amari - but not the cheapies. 

A couple of the passports used to check in on MH370 were obtained from a Phuket bike rental shop that held renters' passports as surety.  A couple of guys who looked like a farang to the owner dropped by and asked to get back their passports for a few minutes to change some money.  He just handed them the pile of passports to let take out their own.  Then they disappeared with two the passports.  I think they were sold to Iranians.

[Dogmatix]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Many years ago tax certificates were required for people who had been ini country, presumably over 6 months. My pals passport was blocked in USA because his ex was disputing the alimony!

Yes. I remember having to get these tax clearance certificates to leave the country. It was necessary for NON-B visa holders. The expat got a tax number and the first year that was enough to get the certificate.  After you had to file a tax return and all tax had to be paid up-to-date. A messenger went to the RD and came back with the certificate after waiting a couple of hours there. It was a lot of work for the RD and a hassle for us.  If they did anything like that again, I suspect it would be getting a tax clearance certificate in order to renew visas which is much easier to administer.

 

When I applied for my first NON-B the IB accused me of working without WP before I moved to Thailand from looking at my passport entries which showed a lot of visits. They asked me my salary (I gave a low ball number) and did a calculation of the number of days spent in Thailand to assess income tax, even though I hadn't stayed enough to be a tax resident. I got a bill for 40k and receipt which I suspected was fake but I needed that WP and my company was decent enough to pay the "tax".  The RD's unilateral amendment to the Tax Code could easily open the floodgates for that sort of extortion again. 

[hotandsticky]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I would ignore the guy mate - judging by his past 'activity' I have added him/her/it to my blocked list. 

Sound advice. ????

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

This article from a while back shows that this was always coming: Newly released Royal Act for the Exchange of Info.... - KPMG Thailand   The Junta overlooked telling people, especially the applicants for the LTR and Elite Visas, and they did nothing about preparing for it.  The Junta allowed many of those target organisations and people to move money into and out of Thailand, using that 'tax free' arrangement - especially the Chinese based 'mafia' (some say 'overlords').  The Thai RD were not prepared, even though this has been coming for years, because the Junta was 'otherwise occupied' and never gave them the 'go ahead'.

 

This sudden move to comply with 'international obligations' with regards to the 'trafficking' of money by terrorist and illegal organisations will start on Jan 1 2024 because the Thai Govt are desperate for funds. After many years of inaction, this should have been announced for 2025 - giving the Thai RD time to prepare. But I  am sure that the new PM decided to implement the change immediately, once they got a good look at the books and realised how bad things really are.  A suspicious person might say that the months of delay in getting a new Govt in place had something to do with both avoiding a disaster (Pita tearing them all apart) and also so that those who needed to move 'things' here and there, had the necessary time to do so. 

 

Either way, whatever the reasons, this is happenning and the Thai RD is not prepared, and we Expats could be caught up in the net, and it would be wise IMO to stay across this issue. 

The RD is trying to give the impression that that there is irresistible international pressure to implement the major change to the taxation of foreign source income in the way they are now doing, related to their signing up to this CRS agreement.  This is simply not the case.  It is just a pathetic excuse as the two issues are unrelated.  There was indeed pressure to sign up for CRS and Thailand was about 5 years late in doing so but changing the Revenue Code because of it is a complete non-sequitur.  Hong Kong and Singapore joined CRS reporting in 2018 and since then they have made no moves in the direction of taxation of foreign sourced income which applies also to companies there.  What the RD meant is that they themselves wanted to do it and felt that joining CRS would give them enough information about overseas accounts of Thais to make it easier for them to go after Thai overseas investors and Thais with overseas employment income to make the whole thing viable.  It is quite pathetic the way they lie and blame foreign countries for their own actions.

[Happy happy]

Question:

What monies brought into Thailand by a tax resident living here in Thailand is NOT subject to Thai tax?

[huberthammer]

On 9/18/2023 at 12:32 PM, freeworld said:

Basically I think they are referring to a capital gain. If the taxes are paid and can be proven elsewhere then it can be avoided. If the money is not taxed in a foreign jurisdiction then Thailand tax laws would govern the taxation if that wealth was brought into Thailand if the person was tax resident.

It will not be a joyride to prove that the transfer from your savings account abroad was earned and taxed 10 years ago. sounds like an admin nightmare and once they have people on the hook it will be on them to prove the money was taxed before.

 

[redwood1]

29 minutes ago, huberthammer said:

It will not be a joyride to prove that the transfer from your savings account abroad was earned and taxed 10 years ago. sounds like an admin nightmare and once they have people on the hook it will be on them to prove the money was taxed before.

 

Lets say you have 500,000 dollars you saved in a foreign bank. And you saved a little each year, over lets say 15-20-25 years..

 

How do you prove that each years deposit was taxed?  Well unless your a CPA superman......You will not be able to prove it....

 

This whole tax plan is like a ship that has sunk before it even got out of dry dock...

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yep 57 pages and it is totally voluntary - both to read and write.

 

Noen of the That taxation professionals know - and that is the problem.  But even then, as my accountants back home always advised over the years - it is worth knowing and doing what is needed BEFORE it becomes a problem, rather than waiting until it is a problem.  I will never forget the best example - "they are going to start taxing money in super funds over xyz amount and I suggest over the next month or two you move abc funds into your bla bla investment accounts". Sure enough, 3 months later the Govt announced new taxation rates for super funds - applicable immediately.  If you know of a taxation expert in Thailand that has all the answers and knows exactly what and how the Thai RD is going to do it, please pray tell us all.  Meanwhile I am interested in hearing what others think and any information, and I will likewise share what I think and information I find about what wil happen after Jan 1 2024 - voluntarily. 

AFAIC we know one thing: it will start on January 1, 2024. So until then money earned before December 2022 and transferred in 2023 isn't taxable. So plan ahead.

 

Also BOI interpretation is now that income earned abroad by LTR visa holders is not taxable  for the duration of the visa. i.e money earned before and after is.

 

We should read carefully the Thailand Revenue Code, and maybe discuss it with a tax agent, to assess the risks of doing or not doing certain things. (cash transfers, splitting income with your wife, etc..).

[Dogmatix]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

This article from a while back shows that this was always coming: Newly released Royal Act for the Exchange of Info.... - KPMG Thailand   The Junta overlooked telling people, especially the applicants for the LTR and Elite Visas, and they did nothing about preparing for it.  The Junta allowed many of those target organisations and people to move money into and out of Thailand, using that 'tax free' arrangement - especially the Chinese based 'mafia' (some say 'overlords').  The Thai RD were not prepared, even though this has been coming for years, because the Junta was 'otherwise occupied' and never gave them the 'go ahead'.

 

This sudden move to comply with 'international obligations' with regards to the 'trafficking' of money by terrorist and illegal organisations will start on Jan 1 2024 because the Thai Govt are desperate for funds. After many years of inaction, this should have been announced for 2025 - giving the Thai RD time to prepare. But I  am sure that the new PM decided to implement the change immediately, once they got a good look at the books and realised how bad things really are.  A suspicious person might say that the months of delay in getting a new Govt in place had something to do with both avoiding a disaster (Pita tearing them all apart) and also so that those who needed to move 'things' here and there, had the necessary time to do so. 

 

Either way, whatever the reasons, this is happenning and the Thai RD is not prepared, and we Expats could be caught up in the net, and it would be wise IMO to stay across this issue. 

I note that the list of financial service provides having to report stuff in the KPMG link includes credit card operators which gives rise to the possibility of tax residents having to pay tax on the use of offshore credit cards in Thailand. It would probably be challenge to shift out tax residents from the thousands of daily tourist ransactions but the risk to putting significant amounts on a foreign credit card seems there. Interesting that trustees are on the list when there is no trust law in Thailand.  Perhaps that was on the international list and the Thai side just thought they would include it to have access to overseas trustees and to cover themselves for a future Thai trust law.

 

Reporting person(s)

1. Banks and financial institutions
2. Securities companies
3. Governmental financial institutions
4. Authorized life insurance licensees
5. Derivatives business operators
6. Escrow agents
7. Credit card operators
8. Trustees
9. Other persons with financial accounting information as prescribed by Minister of Finance

[quake]

28 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

we know one thing: it will start on January 1, 2024. So until then money earned before December 2022 and transferred in 2023 isn't taxable. So plan ahead.

Yeah, get one or two years cash cushion here,  to give you room and time to maneuver around the mine field, if needed.

Your going to spend it here anyway. 

 

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

What the RD meant is that they themselves wanted to do it and felt that joining CRS would give them enough information about overseas accounts of Thais to make it easier for them to go after Thai overseas investors and Thais with overseas employment income to make the whole thing viable.

Yet they choose to tax only income which is remitted to Thailand and therefore infinitely more monitorable than the small amount of information which arrives each year via the CRS system on some accounts where the person is a Thai tax resident AND has notified the foreign bank of their TIN inside Thailand.

 

It might help them to make a shortlist of people to look into.

 

[Ben Zioner]

24 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Yet they choose to tax only income which is remitted to Thailand and therefore infinitely more monitorable than the small amount of information which arrives each year via the CRS system on some accounts where the person is a Thai tax resident AND has notified the foreign bank of their TIN inside Thailand.

Yes, and my gut makes me think  that  once they've explored all ramifications of their initiative they could  come up  with a two percent tax on all remittance and cash foreign card cash withdrawals with some tourists queueing at Suvarnabhumi to get their refunds...

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes, and my gut makes me think  that  once they've explored all ramifications of their initiative they could  come up  with a two percent tax on all remittance and cash foreign card cash withdrawals with some tourists queueing at Suvarnabhumi to get their refunds...

There is already about a 1% tax at ATMs with a 20,000 baht withdrawal.

[ukrules]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes, and my gut makes me think  that  once they've explored all ramifications of their initiative they could  come up  with a two percent tax on all remittance and cash foreign card cash withdrawals with some tourists queueing at Suvarnabhumi to get their refunds...

There's no chance that will happen, the entire business world relies on international payments via the swift network.

 

I'll bet the 'wire rooms' in the major banks are very busy each day processing incoming payments, mostly for corporate recipients

[blackcab]

4 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

If they did anything like that again, I suspect it would be getting a tax clearance certificate in order to renew visas which is much easier to administer.

 

When applying for a Non-B extension for the purpose of working for a Thai company you have to submit your previous years PND91 to prove income tax has been paid.