Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Just have to wait and see what happens by about March 2025, otherwise its pure speculation. 

Thailand has 61 double agreements with other countries and they all appear to be different and the wording in some is ambiguous. Tax authorities want their share of your money, your home country gets first grab and now maybe Thailand wants another go and then its up to you to try and get a refund, meanwhile they get the interest on the contested amount.

I have a Thai tax ID for claiming back interest at the bank but I guess a lot do not so you wait and see if they get in touch, same as me next year.

If you have a wife, maybe she does not have a Thai tax ID, nudge nudge, wink wink.

For those of you with T/F then you are probably better positioned.

The Thai id card number is their tax id.

[TravelerEastWest]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I honestly wouldn't worry about it as Thai RD already know how to handle people who's only income comes from Pensions & you can be assured that unless you have a huge pension any tax due in Thailand will be minimal. 

 

 

I'm not sure which country you're from but if you're from the UK you should get an annual statement for your Pensions (P60 for private ones, not sure what the State Pension one is called) & this/these are all you'll need to provide to the RD should you need to complete a Tax Return... They will pro-rata these out for you if your tax year doesn't align to the Thai Tax year (UK being 6th April - 5th April).

 

It's people who have more "Complicated" income like Salary/Income from Businesses outside of Thailand, Royalties, Capital Gains, Rental Income etc... That might have a harder job in completing their return & may need to file Tax Returns in the other countries to provide evidence to RD.

   

 

 

Bad Rabbit, 

 

I agree with Mike - please don't worry, instead focus on your health - whatever you do don't take advice in tax matters from well meaning non professionals who know very little about Thai tax matters. This could possibly create serious problems for you.

 

I have a tax background but I don't read Thai and I would not considering trusting my own understanding of Thai tax laws... so I have a bilingual Thai CPA who went to a top university in Bangkok and has many years experience. Plus as needed I will consult with tax attorneys who are trained in Thai tax laws. But I have a Thai business and my situation is complicated - for you a Thai bilingual CPA should be fine. And not expensive! I repeat not expensive.

 

 

[Badrabbit]

I'm feeling better about this Tax thing as Mike Lister has kindly offered to help me understand it and hopefully how to do it.

[roobaa01]

Gday

I have been consulting a tax expert in Pattaya

who advised not to act in any respect this year for tax

matters have not been clearly laid out. Thereto no implementation rules exist thus far. Hence I will not apply for any Thai tax I'd no. The main reason I'm not applying I'm still registered with my residency in Germany thus I'm still requested to pay tax in Germany even if staying 14 months in Thailand.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

[Celsius]

5 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday

I have been consulting a tax expert in Pattaya

who advised not to act in any respect this year for tax

matters have not been clearly laid out. Thereto no implementation rules exist thus far. Hence I will not apply for any Thai tax I'd no. The main reason I'm not applying I'm still registered with my residency in Germany thus I'm still requested to pay tax in Germany even if staying 14 months in Thailand.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

Best advice so far

[El Matador]

METV + Escaping the rainy season = NO headache

 

Those extra rainy months are painful and expensive.

[roobaa01]

G' day

 

If I calculate a fiktiv Pension income Overseas of thb 490000 annually from Europe I would

receive the first then thb 150000 tax free, then tax rebate thb 100000 as pension receiver , another  tax rebate THB 120000 for being 65 + , then tax rebate thb 120000 for being married so it comes down to zero right. Hence why would I need to file a tax return?

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

[Mike Teavee]

22 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I have 3 Pensions tottaling 75,000bht per month, London Fire Brigade, Tesco UK and the UK Government State Pension.

How do I get a tax Id code from, where do I go and will it cost me money.

You get your Tax Identification Number (TIN) from your local Tax office, it's free to get &  you'll need your Passport, Lease/Ownership Agreement, 2 Photos + Certificate of Residency with the stated purpose that it is for obtaining a TIN.

 

The Certificate of Residency is got from your local Immigration Office (300B) and will need your Passport, Lease/Ownership Agreement, 2 Photos + TM30 (Definitely need TM30 for Jomtien, not sure about other Immigration Offices), they will ask what it's for, just tell them it's to obtain a Tax Identification Number.

 

Edited January 21 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

8 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

G' day

 

If I calculate a fiktiv Pension income Overseas of thb 490000 annually from Europe I would

receive the first then thb 150000 tax free, then tax rebate thb 100000 as pension receiver , another  tax rebate THB 120000 for being 65 + , then tax rebate thb 120000 for being married so it comes down to zero right. Hence why would I need to file a tax return?

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

Because the Revenue Department might want to check that you're calculations/allowances are correct E.g. are you sure you get another 120,000 for your wife? I thought this was 60,000 - But then again you haven't included the 60,000 that you are entitled to on top of the > 65 allowance.  

 

As an aside, I (via my accountant) have to file a Tax Return in the UK every year and every year it's either I don't need to pay any additional tax or they owe me a few pennies (literally like 12p or so) but it still costs me £240 for my accountant to file it :( 

[Mike Lister]

On 1/20/2024 at 10:40 PM, topt said:

TIT - There is still another 11 months to go so plenty of time........

 

 

I'm not sure if you understand that filling a tax return is an annual event, the new rule change doesn't change the fact that many people still need to file this year, under the old rules.

[Mike Lister]

Now that the debate has become more focussed and appropriate, it's begining to help populate the zero knowledge vacuum and reduce the stress and strain the new announcement has brought, particularly on the 86 year old Edgar types in Sisaket. That has always been the objective.

 

My major concern now is an expectation by one group that appears to think the Revenue will suddenly produce a whole raft of new rules, governing how they pay tax and that the whole tax issue will suddenly go away. It won't . It takes a long time to create the tax rules, 99.8% of what exists today, is not going to change. All the DTA's are listed and available for download from inside the RD English language site, listed in the simple tax guide.

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's. The new rule does change things for some people, especially those using the income method who remit pension income in the year it is earned. But for others, the rules are similar to before, it's just that now we all understand they apply to everyone, not just Thai people.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Now that the debate has become more focussed and appropriate, it's begining to help populate the zero knowledge vacuum and reduce the stress and strain the new announcement has brought, particularly on the 86 year old Edgar types in Sisaket. That has always been the objective.

 

My major concern now is an expectation by one group that appears to think the Revenue will suddenly produce a whole raft of new rules, governing how they pay tax and that the whole tax issue will suddenly go away. It won't . It takes a long time to create the tax rules, 99.8% of what exists today, is not going to change. All the DTA's are listed and available for download from inside the RD English language site, listed in the simple tax guide.

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's. The new rule does change things for some people, especially those using the income method who remit pension income in the year it is earned. But for others, the rules are similar to before, it's just that now we all understand they apply to everyone, not just Thai people.

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's.

 

Please elaborate and in short what sort of financial situations are these thousands of foreigners. Are they pensioners who have their pensions dropped into a Thai Bank monthly? Are they business owners in Thailand?

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's. The new rule does change things for some people, especially those using the income method who remit pension income in the year it is earned.

 

Are you saying pension deposited into Thailand monthly is being  taxed in Thailand VS. pension which has been sitting around in foreign bank and has gone through taxation is different.

[topt]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not sure if you understand that filling a tax return is an annual event, the new rule change doesn't change the fact that many people still need to file this year, under the old rules.

Perhaps you should re read and reconsider why I wrote what I did to the poster who I quoted and the emoticon I used.....

Not sure if you were just using me to make a general point but if directed at me then I find your comment disappointing at best and almost condescending.

 

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's.

 

Please elaborate and in short what sort of financial situations are these thousands of foreigners. Are they pensioners who have their pensions dropped into a Thai Bank monthly? Are they business owners in Thailand?

 

Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's. The new rule does change things for some people, especially those using the income method who remit pension income in the year it is earned.

 

Are you saying pension deposited into Thailand monthly is being  taxed in Thailand VS. pension which has been sitting around in foreign bank and has gone through taxation is different.

It has to be anecdotal of course because the RD doesn't produce stats on this but with over 300k westerners living here and around 150k long stay expats, of course foriegners are filing taxes here. Of all the foriegners I know here, most retired, about half file tax returns, I am retired, I've filed for several years. Every time I go to the district office, I see foriegners filing returns, many just to reclaim tax withheld on savings. If you think foreign retirees dont pay tax here, you would be very mistaken.

 

Am i taxed here? Yes, some years I allow myself to be taxed on a combo of pension and rent income from the UK, combined with savings interest and other overseas earnings. 

 

And yes, finally, I am saying that earnings that are remitted in the year they are earned, are taxable, even some pensions, if they are declared. No, savings that have sat around for years are not taxable. Tell me, after all your comments on this, are you saying you haven't read the simple tax guide because that answer is in there.

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, topt said:

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, topt said:

Perhaps you should re read and reconsider why I wrote what I did to the poster who I quoted and the emoticon I used.....

Not sure if you were just using me to make a general point but if directed at me then I find your comment disappointing at best and almost condescending.

 

Sorry, I don't speak emoticon! Not trying to be condescending, just seemed that you didn't know, I'm happy that you do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topt]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Of all the foriegners I know here, most retired, about half file tax returns,

Of all the retired foreigners I know here and who I have spoken to about this none have ever filed a tax return other than the odd one to reclaim tax withheld on interest - which I think we all agree is not really filing as we are discussing. That's getting on for probably about 30 guys.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, topt said:

Of all the retired foreigners I know here and who I have spoken to about this none have ever filed a tax return other than the odd one to reclaim tax withheld on interest - which I think we all agree is not really filing as we are discussing. That's getting on for probably about 30 guys.

 

 

Let me play devil's advocate with you, just make a point. Why is filing PND 90 not filing a tax return, even though you should have filed a PND91 and declared your other income, but decided not to! Isn't that evasion?

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, topt said:

Of all the retired foreigners I know here and who I have spoken to about this none have ever filed a tax return other than the odd one to reclaim tax withheld on interest - which I think we all agree is not really filing as we are discussing. That's getting on for probably about 30 guys.

 

 

Yes my experiences similar ... I know very few who have filed. Just myself and a couple of other cheapskates who wanted the withholding tax back. 

[Badrabbit]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

You get your Tax Identification Number (TIN) from your local Tax office, it's free to get &  you'll need your Passport, Lease/Ownership Agreement, 2 Photos + Certificate of Residency with the stated purpose that it is for obtaining a TIN.

 

The Certificate of Residency is got from your local Immigration Office (300B) and will need your Passport, Lease/Ownership Agreement, 2 Photos + TM30 (Definitely need TM30 for Jomtien, not sure about other Immigration Offices), they will ask what it's for, just tell them it's to obtain a Tax Identification Number.

 

Thank you for the information.

[Badrabbit]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes my experiences similar ... I know very few who have filed. Just myself and a couple of other cheapskates who wanted the withholding tax back. 

"Cheapskates" I pay tax in the UK on my Pensions, I didn't think I would be required to pay tax again here, If I had been told that I would have to I would and wouldn't have a problem with it.

[EVENKEEL]

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It has to be anecdotal of course because the RD doesn't produce stats on this but with over 300k westerners living here and around 150k long stay expats, of course foriegners are filing taxes here. Of all the foriegners I know here, most retired, about half file tax returns, I am retired, I've filed for several years. Every time I go to the district office, I see foriegners filing returns, many just to reclaim tax withheld on savings. If you think foreign retirees dont pay tax here, you would be very mistaken.

 

Am i taxed here? Yes, some years I allow myself to be taxed on a combo of pension and rent income from the UK, combined with savings interest and other overseas earnings. 

 

And yes, finally, I am saying that earnings that are remitted in the year they are earned, are taxable, even some pensions, if they are declared. No, savings that have sat around for years are not taxable. Tell me, after all your comments on this, are you saying you haven't read the simple tax guide because that answer is in there.

I know of no foreigner paying taxes here in Thailand. You call it a simple guide if you want, after 15 yrs here in Thailand I see no reason to look for a thief to steal my money. I prepay taxes on pension and my rent money is sporadic. Why would I ever begin this silly process of willingly subjecting myself to taxes.

 

It has to be anecdotal of course because the RD doesn't produce stats on this but with over 300k westerners living here and around 150k long stay expats, of course foriegners are filing taxes here.

 

So, earlier you said thousands of foreigners are paying taxes, and then you say it's anecdotal, which by the way means it's not necessarily true. Because you're simply making things up and covering up with a bunch of words.

 

 

[topt]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Let me play devil's advocate with you, just make a point. Why is filing PND 90 not filing a tax return, even though you should have filed a PND91 and declared your other income, but decided not to! Isn't that evasion?

Come on Mike this subject has come up multiple times in the longer thread and I thought it had been generally accepted, so apologies if not, that most foreigners either were not aware they needed to file or had been using the following year income rule to not file. 

 

So no I don't consider it evasion if income was brought in the following year as earned and therefore no tax was payable.

 

I do agree that all those receiving pension payments monthly theoretically probably should have been filing and remember this issue being discussed multiple times over the last 10 years.

And finally the form I used in the past to file for withheld taxes was a something 10 - a one page form. I was never asked to complete anything else.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I know of no foreigner paying taxes here in Thailand. You call it a simple guide if you want, after 15 yrs here in Thailand I see no reason to look for a thief to steal my money. I prepay taxes on pension and my rent money is sporadic. Why would I ever begin this silly process of willingly subjecting myself to taxes.

 

It has to be anecdotal of course because the RD doesn't produce stats on this but with over 300k westerners living here and around 150k long stay expats, of course foriegners are filing taxes here.

 

So, earlier you said thousands of foreigners are paying taxes, and then you say it's anecdotal, which by the way means it's not necessarily true. Because you're simply making things up and covering up with a bunch of words.

 

 

You want factual stats where there are none yet you don't think even 1% of those foriegners file returns.....really!

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, topt said:

Come on Mike this subject has come up multiple times in the longer thread and I thought it had been generally accepted, so apologies if not, that most foreigners either were not aware they needed to file or had been using the following year income rule to not file. 

 

So no I don't consider it evasion if income was brought in the following year as earned and therefore no tax was payable.

 

I do agree that all those receiving pension payments monthly theoretically probably should have been filing and remember this issue being discussed multiple times over the last 10 years.

And finally the form I used in the past to file for withheld taxes was a something 10 - a one page form. I was never asked to complete anything else.

I skipped out of the longer thread, this one, so no I didn't see that debate.

 

But as long as you agree that those people should have been filing returns, that's fine...but there's no theoretically about it.

[jayboy]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

But as long as you agree that those people should have been filing returns, that's fine...but there's no theoretically about it.

 

In the circumstances the word 'theoretically' is absolutely appropriate.

[Ben Zioner]

11 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

G' day

 

If I calculate a fiktiv Pension income Overseas of thb 490000 annually from Europe I would

receive the first then thb 150000 tax free, then tax rebate thb 100000 as pension receiver , another  tax rebate THB 120000 for being 65 + , then tax rebate thb 120000 for being married so it comes down to zero right. Hence why would I need to file a tax return?

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

I'd say yes, and you ought to disclose all your income, as no one lives on 490000 a year.

[Ben Zioner]

7 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm out of this again. But, Please.....please as a moderator don't make statements that you don't know to be true. Such as thousands of retirees are filing taxes in Thailand.

Thousands could mean two of three thousands, about 1% of retirees. A realistic figure IMHO.

[Badrabbit]

I get 900,000bht per year Pension via 3 pensions which I pay tax on in the UK, with all the discounts i:e over 65 etc I wont pay much tax here if indeed I need to at all.

[jayboy]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not trying to make anyone file, im trying to make sure that everyone has enough. Information to make their own decisions.

 

Agreed and you are in the vanguard of providing an excellent information base on this subject (future tax obligations of resident expatriates).

 

But in this instance the subject was past filings and here you have been misleading.The vast majority of resident pensioner expatriates with no Thai income have not been filing returns.None of the major accounting firms in Bangkok nor the RD itself recommended this.

 

Please give it a rest.Most of us know the technical position.

[Badrabbit]

3 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Agreed and you are in the vanguard of providing an excellent information base on this subject (future tax obligations of resident expatriates).

 

But in this instance the subject was past filings and here you have been misleading.The vast majority of resident pensioner expatriates with no Thai income have not been filing returns.None of the major accounting firms in Bangkok nor the RD itself recommended this.

 

Please give it a rest.Most of us know the technical position.

I was told by the Head man at my Tax office, "do you want to pay tax here" my answer "no as I pay tax in the UK" "you can pay tax here or your home country up to you"

Is he right or not?