Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[topt]

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Is that the general consensus?

Not sure it is. There are people in both camps.

 

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Not a big deal but would RD be interested in a nil return?

At the moment I would imagine most offices no. (just my personal opinion)

However next filing start is not until 1/01/25 so may have to wait a while to see if anything really shakes out......

Edited April 9 by topt

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

They are two very simple questions.

If you consider yourself to be not liable for tax after considering your "information" above do you have to do either of the following; (hint answer yes or no!)

a) Do you have to obtain a TIN?

b) Do you have to file a tax return?

There is a third answer!  Just say either;

You don't know or nobody knows yet!

I think it would be best if you consulted with a Thai tax firm rather than relying on other peoples opinions, but I will give you my thoughts on your questions below:

a) Do you have to obtain a TIN? I do not know. I will not be getting a TIN.

b) Do you have to file a tax return? I do not know. I will not be filing a tax return since I'm not getting a TIN.

I will be here 11 months this year, so I will be considered a tax resident, but I won't be remitting any assessable income.

I guess if every tax resident is supposed to get a TIN, then they better start getting the tens of millions of Thais to sign up for a TIN.

Edited April 9 by JohnnyBD
grammar

[Ben Zioner]

18 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Just because one knows what one's TIN number will be isn't surely sufficient.It actually needs to be registered and associated with your name at the Tax Department - or so I would think.

"A taxpayer identification number is issued by the Revenue Department and comprises 10 digits.However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."
 

[lordgrinz]

Does the Thai tax return have a section for applying Foreign Earned Remitted income, and is there a worksheet that defines what it assessable, or not? Meaning we would have to file a return for all money remitted to Thailand, then use a worksheet to reduce out exposure to taxes based on a DTA's, etc?

[jayboy]

8 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

"A taxpayer identification number is issued by the Revenue Department and comprises 10 digits.However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."
 

 

From the RD document you refer to, foreigners seem obliged to apply for a TIN rather than a PIN.

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, samtam said:

Can you help me out with what I'm missing.

 

I'm over 65 and I come to a figure of THB500k non taxable:

 

60k Personal Care Allowance

100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

190k Over 65

150k Zero-rated

500k Total

 

....what's the additional 70k?

 

Thanks.

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

The other 70k was my .gov UK pension, which under the  DTA should only be taxed in UK.

[Mike Lister]

I purposely went into hiding over Scottie's questions, simply because I wanted to see what everyone else would say and how you would all answer. Sorry, I wasn't trying to dump you in it......I thought you did a fine job. One issue that is apparent is the high expectations people have in demanding easy answers to "simple" questions......Scottie just doesn't understand, which will mean others don't either! It's not like asking what time the next bus comes, the question seems simple but the lack of clarity makes them very complex....but we know that, Scottie doesn't.

[Mike Lister]

To add.....I was surprised the opposing team didn't have anything to say, those who have been loud advocates saying there's no need to file a return if there's no tax to pay, why is that? Have they changed their minds, are they unsure, or maybe they also wanted to hear what everyone else had to say on the subject. Have to say, the PWC quotes posted by Jim paint an uncomfortable picture and strongly suggest that returns are required, regardless. Unsure, jury is still out.

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I think it would be best if you consulted with a Thai tax firm rather than relying on other peoples opinions, but I will give you my thoughts on your questions below:

a) Do you have to obtain a TIN? I do not know. I will not be getting a TIN.

b) Do you have to file a tax return? I do not know. I will not be filing a tax return since I'm not getting a TIN.

I will be here 11 months this year, so I will be considered a tax resident, but I won't be remitting any assessable income.

I guess if every tax resident is supposed to get a TIN, then they better start getting the tens of millions of Thais to sign up for a TIN.

Pretty sure that no Thai's will need to sign up for a TIN as their National ID is their TIN so they're given a Tax ID from birth (as it is in most countries).

 

FWIW,

a) I have a TIN (Needed to get one for one of my UK Bank accounts though ended up not giving it to them)

b) I will be "Self-Assessing" myself as No-Tax owed (I'll only be remitting 235K which is the limit at which I'd start to pay Tax) so not filing a return for 2024.

 

I'll be ignoring the >3,000B withholding tax on my FD accounts so technically they'd owe me money if they want me to file a return. 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

Pretty sure that no Thai's will need to sign up for a TIN as their National ID is their TIN so they're given a Tax ID from birth (as it is in most countries).

 

FWIW,

a) I have a TIN (Needed to get one for one of my UK Bank accounts though ended up not giving it to them)

b) I will be "Self-Assessing" myself as No-Tax owed (I'll only be remitting 235K which is the limit at which I'd start to pay Tax) so not filing a return for 2024.

 

I'll be ignoring the >3,000B withholding tax on my FD accounts so technically they'd owe me money if they want me to file a return. 

 

 

I've done similar this year, I've not filed a return because this year I'm under the threshold. 

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I've done similar this year, I've not filed a return because this year I'm under the threshold. 

 

8 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

From the RD document you refer to, foreigners seem obliged to apply for a TIN rather than a PIN.

My reading is that foreigners, who don't have a PIN (i.e no lellow book, nor ID card) must get a TIN.

[topt]

7 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

 

My reading is that foreigners, who don't have a PIN (i.e no lellow book, nor ID card) must get a TIN.

Disagree.

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

 

My reading is that foreigners, who don't have a PIN (i.e no lellow book, nor ID card) must get a TIN.

Agree, but only within 60 days of achieving assessible income threshold. But the document is old, the TIN is 13 digits.

 

Also, looking back through old posts last night I'm reminded by something Guavaman said......"beware translations produced by anyone from Thai to English:.

Edited April 10 by Mike Lister

[Ben Zioner]

59 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

But the document is old, the TIN is 13 digits.

Thanks, the PIN is 13 digits as well.

 

Anyhow I'll send my PIN to UBS and request a TIN in due course. Remember reading that in case of audit you don't get the same treatment (10 years vs 5 years) if you don't have a TIN. 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Agree, but only within 60 days of achieving assessible income threshold.

What is assessable income for an LTR/WP visa holder? 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

What is assessable income for an LTR/WP visa holder? 

The same level as anyone else, the assessable level doesn't change, only the treatment changes. 

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

To add.....I was surprised the opposing team didn't have anything to say, those who have been loud advocates saying there's no need to file a return if there's no tax to pay, why is that? Have they changed their minds, are they unsure, or maybe they also wanted to hear what everyone else had to say on the subject. Have to say, the PWC quotes posted by Jim paint an uncomfortable picture and strongly suggest that returns are required, regardless. Unsure, jury is still out.

 

Haven't seen the PWC quotes mentioned but have read the latest PWC tax publication for Thailand (maybe the same,I haven't checked)

 

It is very specific, see relevant part quoted below.

 

"Tax administration
Thailand applies a self-assessment system in collecting taxes.
Taxpayers are required to declare their tax liabilities in the prescribed
tax returns and pay the tax due at the time of filing.
The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for
income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there
is any tax due:
• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than
Baht 60,000
• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category
(1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht
120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1)
(salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000."

 

It specifies the individuals who need to declare their tax liabilities "irrespective of whether there is any tax due." All refer to income earned in the preceding tax year (I assume that means 2024). Doesn't it follow that those for example didn't remit any funds in 2024 and even those who only remitted pre-2024 exempted funds don't need to submit a return?

 

Frankly I think this particular tax return discussion is a bit silly.There aren't "opposing teams" just a common wish to improve understanding - and there are no rights or wrongs at this stage.What we are required to do - prospective filers and non filers - will emerge by the end of the year.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Haven't seen the PWC quotes mentioned but have read the latest PWC tax publication for Thailand (maybe the same,I haven't checked)

 

It is very specific, see relevant part quoted below.

 

"Tax administration
Thailand applies a self-assessment system in collecting taxes.
Taxpayers are required to declare their tax liabilities in the prescribed
tax returns and pay the tax due at the time of filing.
The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for
income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there
is any tax due:
• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than
Baht 60,000
• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category
(1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht
120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1)
(salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000."

 

It specifies the individuals who need to declare their tax liabilities "irrespective of whether there is any tax due." All refer to income earned in the preceding tax year (I assume that means 2024). Doesn't it follow that those for example didn't remit any funds in 2024 and even those who only remitted pre-2024 exempted funds don't need to submit a return?

 

Frankly I think this particular tax return discussion is a bit silly.There aren't "opposing teams" just a common wish to improve understanding - and there are no rights or wrongs at this stage.What we are required to do - prospective filers and non filers - will emerge by the end of the year.

Yes, that's the same one.

 

I need to study your question and will come back to you with my view.

 

I was being very casual in my language when I referred to opposing teams, even somewhat jocular. But buried in their is an element of truth, you only have to read back through some of the recent replies to see a large element of distortion and competition, which is just not necessary at all. Americans and Australians have very different debating styles to Brits.

[jayceenik]

My first TIN. 03FEB89. 9 numbers.

At the time I was renting a studio in Sukhumvit 22.

I got a job for an Aussie company in Papua New Guinea.

One month on - two weeks off. Airfare paid to BKK.

The then Thai govt decided to tax farangs who were spending more than a couple months a year in LOS.

That was me. We had to declare our overseas income and pay Thai taxes on it

No reentry for those who didn't get a clearance from the RD.

I declared a very low nominal salary, received a TIN by post and paid a token sum in 1989 ,1990 and 1991.

Then this new "farang" tax was scrapped.

I had completely forgotten about this TIN when I had to get one a few years ago when I made a time deposit account at KTB and they insisted on my having a TIN to open this time account even though I already had a savings account with them.

Today I just exhumed the old one while clearing my papers.

So, now I have two TINs!

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayceenik said:

My first TIN. 03FEB89. 9 numbers.

At the time I was renting a studio in Sukhumvit 22.

I got a job for an Aussie company in Papua New Guinea.

One month on - two weeks off. Airfare paid to BKK.

The then Thai govt decided to tax farangs who were spending more than a couple months a year in LOS.

That was me. We had to declare our overseas income and pay Thai taxes on it

No reentry for those who didn't get a clearance from the RD.

I declared a very low nominal salary, received a TIN by post and paid a token sum in 1989 ,1990 and 1991.

Then this new "farang" tax was scrapped.

I had completely forgotten about this TIN when I had to get one a few years ago when I made a time deposit account at KTB and they insisted on my having a TIN to open this time account even though I already had a savings account with them.

Today I just exhumed the old one while clearing my papers.

So, now I have two TINs!

 

Can we call you TinTin?

[stat]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:21 AM, Mike Lister said:

I have logged the following point at the end of the simple tax guide, in the list of unclear/unknowns:

 

L) - two members do not believe that the Revenue Code is sufficiently explicit in stating who doesn’t need to file a tax return and instead only states who should! Most other members have been able to understand this issue but nevertheless, the search continues for a suitable form of RD words that will satisfy this point for everyone.

Stating that "most others members have been able to understand this" is an insult to me and Grumpy. Every member who has an other understanding then you does not understand the topic (pathetic). I am in contact with several members who severly disagree with 90% of your statements, but because of recent "events" do not dare to voice their concern.

Edited April 10 by stat

[stat]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:22 AM, Ben Zioner said:

Today I have received a letter from UBS requesting a [Thai] TIN.

 

I was about to send them my PIN but got second thoughts. Since I have the so called LTR/WP visa, can I tell them that not of money transiting through UBS is assessable in Thailand and that therefore I have no TIN to provide? 

 

I am not sure I want to do that, because I wouldn't like it if they closed my accounts. But their letter was threatening at all, a reminder might be though..

Just provide your bank with the following official document that no tin is needed for Thailand (Point 5). Worked for me with several banks.

 

CRSno tin required.pdf

Edited April 10 by stat

[stat]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

To add.....I was surprised the opposing team didn't have anything to say, those who have been loud advocates saying there's no need to file a return if there's no tax to pay, why is that? Have they changed their minds, are they unsure, or maybe they also wanted to hear what everyone else had to say on the subject. Have to say, the PWC quotes posted by Jim paint an uncomfortable picture and strongly suggest that returns are required, regardless. Unsure, jury is still out.

Mike there is no opposing team, stop spreading conspiracy theories.

[stat]

18 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

Is that the general consensus? There will be many tax residents who have no assessable income.In other words they made substantial remittances to Thailand before 31.12.24 from funds acquired before that date.This presumably would also apply to funds remitted during 2024 if clear these were earned before 31.12.24.In the latter case one would need to provide proof if required.

 

Hard to say whether a tax return required in such circumstances.Not a big deal but would RD be interested in a nil return? Would they even accept one? Best advice is probably to wait and see over the next few months and if necessary obtain a TIN later in the year.

 

 

There is no consensus because no one knows. They have changed the application of a law with a directive so no one knows how they will handle the 2024 tax declaration. In the past they did not care that is for sure.

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, stat said:

Stating that "most others members have been able to understand this" is an insult to me and Grumpy. Every member who has an other understanding then you does not understand the topic. I am in contact with several members who severly disagree with 90% of your statements but because of recent "events" do not dare to voice their concern.

They're all out there in the Simple Guide to be agreed with, disagreed with or commented on. If members chose to say nothing, for whatever paranoid reason you allude to, that leaves others with the impression of tacit approval or disinterest. On the other hand, such folks could politely, calmly and rationally pass comment and even pen alternatives that more closely match their opinions and see what other members think. Thus far it's only been myself and a small handful of offline/behind the scenes members who have participated in the construction and critiques. I/we have no problem at all if anyone wants to suggest alternate phraseology that can be broadly agreed by members. Not half or one page confused rants, just one piece at a time in small manageable bites. Sorry if you and Grumps feel insulted but you guys do manage to bog down progress and like to argue in circular fashion.....what is assessable income and what is a resident are two examples. And you are the only posters that have raised this issue in the thread and complained about it, just like you're the only ones to have complained about most things. If you have emails from imaginary friends on this, great, get them to post their views here so we all can share.

Edited April 10 by Mike Lister

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, stat said:

Mike there is no opposing team, stop spreading conspiracy theories.

The letters, the emails and the PM's speak differently but let's not dwell on the past, onwards and upwards I say.

[Ben Zioner]

3 hours ago, stat said:

Just provide your bank with the following official document that no tin is needed for Thailand (Point 5). Worked for me with several banks.

 

CRSno tin required.pdf 895.25 kB · 4 downloads

I couldn't see how this paper proves that no TIN is required, but reading it led me to think that there must be on-line resources to verify TINs, and indeed I found this one within a couple of minutes. It needs basic registration and you get five free shots. I could check my wife's as well as my own PIN numbers and they checked just fine.

 

So each country deploys it's own Web Service and all countries use a common WSDL (Web Service Definition Language), we used to say "weezdle", in our IT jargon. The documentation of the of the Thai service is here. The Tin Check application above just calls the relevant services based on country code, it passes the number and receives the status.

 

So lets be careful with assumptions that RD won't be able to corner us, the more I look into it the more I see that work has been done.

[UKresonant]

3 hours ago, stat said:

Just provide your bank with the following official document that no tin is needed for Thailand (Point 5). Worked for me with several banks.

 

CRSno tin required.pdf 895.25 kB · 5 downloads

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/tax/automatic-exchange-of-information#:~:text=However%2C Thai government officials have,take place in September 2023.

 

Do you have an OECD document dated April 2023 or later. Has it been updated at all....?

[stat]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

I couldn't see how this paper proves that no TIN is required, but reading it led me to think that there must be on-line resources to verify TINs, and indeed I found this one within a couple of minutes. It needs basic registration and you get five free shots. I could check my wife's as well as my own PIN numbers and they checked just fine.

 

So each country deploys it's own Web Service and all countries use a common WSDL (Web Service Definition Language), we used to say "weezdle", in our IT jargon. The documentation of the of the Thai service is here. The Tin Check application above just calls the relevant services based on country code, it passes the number and receives the status.

 

So lets be careful with assumptions that RD won't be able to corner us, the more I look into it the more I see that work has been done.

5. Requirement to collect TINs

Paragraph 30 of the Commentary on Section I provides that a TIN is not required to be reported with respect to a Reportable Account held by a Reportable Person with respect to whom a TIN has not been issued. Should a Financial Institution request a Reportable Person to obtain and provide a TIN, in case such Reportable Person is or may be eligible to obtain a TIN (or the functional equivalent) in its jurisdiction of residence, but is not required to obtain a TIN and has not obtained a TIN?Answer: No

You are not required to get a TIN in TH and therefore the bank in your jurisdiction cannot force you to get a TIN.

Edited April 10 by stat

[stat]

2 hours ago, UKresonant said:

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/tax/automatic-exchange-of-information#:~:text=However%2C Thai government officials have,take place in September 2023.

 

Do you have an OECD document dated April 2023 or later. Has it been updated at all....?

No update to my knowledge so Point 5 still stands IMHO and was/is accepted by several banks.

Edited April 10 by stat