Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[RafPinto]

I think soon, all those Youtubers living and working here and some of them making big money, they will soon stop to post more videos. Has anyone of them a work permit?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Here you go folks......The answer to why all this talk about new taxes...

Because..

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2023/09/25/calls-for-clarification-of-new-regime-income-tax-foreigners-overseas-income/

Thai economy is driven and owned by a small elite

This is leading to the government seeking a wider tax base with much of the country’s wealth, held by a small elite in holdings that are mobile and able to be managed against changes in the country’s tax code.

Because of this imbalance in power, such tax changes run a risk of disrupting the country’s economy which is very much dependent on this elite class.

Excellent article - well written and thoughtful.  BUT I believe that this will get zero airtime within the new Govt/PM because IMO who/what they are really after, is all the corrupt foreigners (Mafia), especially the Chinese ones, that have infiltrated Thailand under the Junta's watch using LTR, Elite and other Visas.

Unfortunately,  it appears that unless specifically excluded, many of us retired and/or married Expats will be caught up in this 'crackdown'.  Those holders of LTR and Elite Visas who paid big bucks on the promise of a 'zero income tax' arrangement, are about to be screwed over.  I say unfortunately, because in order to apply those screws, they have to be applied across all 'foreigners' living in Thailand. 

 

The article points out that there are an estimated 300K of 'well off' Expats living in Thailand as either retired or married, plus another 150K well off Expats who are working here - they excluded the 1-2 million? poorer temp workers and illegals from Myamar Cambodia etc.  The article suggests that if this income tax is applied as it looks like it will be, then many of those Expats will leave Thailand, and that far less will decide to retire/move to Thailand in future.  While othger countries are trying to attract retirees to live there, Thailand is continuing to do things that will drive us out, and keep others away.

 

300K times 1 Million Baht on average per year for each Expat totals 300 Billion Baht.  I wonder if the Thai Govt/PM will listen to the fact that much of that money could be leaving Thailand soon, and also that it will not be coming back in every year.  I also wonder if the Thai Govt/PM realises that (according to TAT) 300 Billion Baht equals 6 Million Tourists.  Even if you halve those numbers it still totals 150 Billion Baht or 3 Million Tourists.

 

I wonder if they have said to themselves - 300K Expats times 150K each in income tax, equals 45 Billion in taxation revenue - Dee Mak Mak Chai Chai ????.   Actually, I would not be surprised - Thai (ill)logic never ceases to amaze me. 

[Somjot]

10 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

I think soon, all those Youtubers living and working here and some of them making big money, they will soon stop to post more videos. Has anyone of them a work permit?

That is the first positive post in this thread.

[Banana7]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:21 AM, Cadan said:

Simple solution - fly back home and bring allowed cash I believe 20,000$ per trip - banks will make less transfer fees - another way is the cash transfer or ATM 

You can bring in more than USD$20K, but you should declare it. The declaration form then also allows you transfer that same amount out of Thailand, or use it for the initial deposit into a thai bank account for a retirement visa, or buy a condo, or wherever proof is required that the funds were transferred in from outside of Thailand.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

They are in desperate need of money.

They promised to pay 10,000Baht to each Thai. Where is that money coming from?

They reduced again the price of Diesel and soon electricity.
Do they observe a bit the oil prices? Brent again closer to 100$ and in Thailand, they are cutting the prices. Again, this money has to come from somewhere.

Is the PM now running after each noodle or somtum seller who potentially makes more then 150k a year or after massage girls who often make 30-50k and up but none of them pays 1 baht in taxes.

Easier to put the "farang" at the forefront. Let them pay tax in Thailand.
What do we get in return?
Every single $/EUR/£ send to Thailand is spent here. We just buy houses, apartments, cars, pay international school fees etc.

They will cut themselves if they are not very careful.

My eyes are already on Malaysia where at least I can own a house without putting in someone other's name or opening a dodgy company. I can import a car a gusto, without paying crazy import taxes.

The Malaysian 'retirement' packages are good - they cost a little money and are not for the cheap Charlies living only on a pension, but as a mate told me years ago, that is a good thing.  Take a look at Penang - it has been recommended by many and it is the place we are currently looking at - as well as other countries nearby. One of the great thigns about the Malaysian packages is that they are 'Govt guranteed' and none of the conditions can be changed - they have been in place for over 10 years and are well proven.  When I compare that to the khrapp Thailand has done to me since 2012, Malaysia is a clear winner in that regards. 

 

The Thai wife is adamant that she/I will not be taxed on the 1 million+ Baht money I bring into Thailand every year - and she is also adamant that if they impose mandatory rip-off health insurance then we will leave.  If either of those things happen, we will leave and live 'nearby' so that we can easily visit - but never for more than 6 months of the year.  Our plan was to base ourselves in Thailand and travel - now it looks like we will be based somewhere else, and Thailand will become one of the places where we will visit. 

[quake]

21 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

I think soon, all those Youtubers living and working here and some of them making big money, they will soon stop to post more videos. Has anyone of them a work permit?

I would miss them all,  so mut.  

[FritsSikkink]

12 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The article points out that there are an estimated 300K of 'well off' Expats living in Thailand as either retired or married, plus another 150K well off Expats who are working here

 

How many expat pensioners with a very low pension that can't meet the financial requirements for a visa and need an agent?

How many poorly paid expat teachers?

[Celsius]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The Malaysian 'retirement' packages are good - they cost a little money and are not for the cheap Charlies living only on a pension,

 

Also food Choices in Malaysia are much better.... and often cheaper. 

 

I would not sell everything and retire there as they are also known to pull some thing out of their behind, but this was always my preferred destination over Thailand.

[newnative]

     If push comes to shove, as an American I will probably switch the direct deposit of my social security to my Thai bank, rather than my American bank, where it goes now.  It seems pretty clear that with the government tax agreement in place between the US and Thailand, social security should be safe from being taxed twice.  (I know, 'should' is the iffy word in that sentence.)

    At a rate of 36 baht to the dollar, that would get me about 61,000 baht each month.  Maybe not quite enough for my partner and I to live on but fairly close and we would not have to take too much out of the Thai savings we already have here to make up the difference.  Some months it might be enough since I pay some of our bills with an American debit card.

    In an earlier post on one of these threads, I mentioned that all my foreign income goes into my American bank account and I wondered how Thailand would know that this dollar I send to Thailand is from already taxed social security and not from capital gains or dividend income (which is also already  taxed but, apparently, fair game).  If the onus is on me to prove the money source, at least I can show a deposit coming in directly from the social security administration.

[Robin]

iIt seems to me that the crucial term here is "Tax Resident"  How is this defined?

Can someone confirm that the figure of 180days/year in Thailand is the correct qualification?  Is it days or nights in the country?

If so I will be counting my days here, and keeping under that limit.

Is it income only that will be taxed, or draw-down on capital held elsewhere.  

In UK  I am allowed to draw down 5% (i think) of my capital held in a bank there or anywhere else, without paying any tax on the money.

If i do this and then bring the money to Thailand does it count as money with tax paid, or will Thailand tax me on that as well.  Seems like lots o work for Thai taxa accountants, at least in he first year..

How is Thailand going to round up all the 'Tax Residents' nd tax them?

All seems very complicated, as I, like many retirees, do not have any official tax number in Thailand.

I pay tax in UK on unearned income, so I have a "unique tax reference' that i can be tracked with.

Is Thailand going to be able to do this?

I could live in Thailand on wife's income from ice growing etc., on which she pays no tax., and buy item s like air tickets on my UK credit card, paid in UK.

Thailand is going to be the loser i I do not bring any of my money  from UK.  My UK pension is paid into UK bank and taxed there.

[circa02]

In worst case scenario and they tax all incoming remittance to foreigners living here on long term visas, even if already taxed at source, whats to stop say gifting the money to your thai wife/gf each month, via international remittance so never touches a thai account in your name, and then just withdraw the cash locally, obviously saving wouldn't be possible, but at close to zero interest rates it doesn't make much sense here anyway. 

 

Practically are they really going to expect all the working girls with multiple sponsors sending them bank transfer and western union each month to pay tax on those gifts?

Edited September 28, 2023 by circa02

[freeworld]

53 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Also food Choices in Malaysia are much better.... and often cheaper. 

 

I would not sell everything and retire there as they are also known to pull some thing out of their behind, but this was always my preferred destination over Thailand.

So one could ask, why did you come to and stay in Thailand?

[freeworld]

2 minutes ago, circa02 said:

In worst case scenario and they tax all incoming remittance to foreigners living here on long term visas, even if already taxed at source, whats to stop say gifting the money to your thai wife/gf each month, via international remittance so never touches a thai account in your name, and then just withdraw the cash locally, obviously saving wouldn't be possible, but at close to zero interest rates it doesn't make much sense here anyway. 

 

Practically are they really going to expect all the working girls with multiple sponsors sending them bank transfer and western union each month to pay tax on those gifts?

Nonsense, it is income tax, they don't just tax any and all transfers.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

How many expat pensioners with a very low pension that can't meet the financial requirements for a visa and need an agent?

How many poorly paid expat teachers?

Good questions - and I wish that the Thai Govt would count the number of us all. If they did then they would realise that we are worth a large amount of money to them.  Meanwhile TAT counts every day-visitor who walks over the borders as a tourist and the Thai Govt believes their lies.

My estimate is that about 50-100K would fall into those categories you gave - but that is just a guess. I do know that there are a lot of Expats with money living in Thailand that bring over more than 1 Million Baht each year  - especially those that buy a proeprty or a new car.  

[freeworld]

1 hour ago, RafPinto said:

They are in desperate need of money.

They promised to pay 10,000Baht to each Thai. Where is that money coming from?

They reduced again the price of Diesel and soon electricity.
Do they observe a bit the oil prices? Brent again closer to 100$ and in Thailand, they are cutting the prices. Again, this money has to come from somewhere.

Is the PM now running after each noodle or somtum seller who potentially makes more then 150k a year or after massage girls who often make 30-50k and up but none of them pays 1 baht in taxes.

Easier to put the "farang" at the forefront. Let them pay tax in Thailand.
What do we get in return?
Every single $/EUR/£ send to Thailand is spent here. We just buy houses, apartments, cars, pay international school fees etc.

They will cut themselves if they are not very careful.

My eyes are already on Malaysia where at least I can own a house without putting in someone other's name or opening a dodgy company. I can import a car a gusto, without paying crazy import taxes.

Relax, wait until they clarify everything, until then everybody is just speculating and complaining.

[BE88]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Excellent article - well written and thoughtful.  BUT I believe that this will get zero airtime within the new Govt/PM because IMO who/what they are really after, is all the corrupt foreigners (Mafia), especially the Chinese ones, that have infiltrated Thailand under the Junta's watch using LTR, Elite and other Visas.

Unfortunately,  it appears that unless specifically excluded, many of us retired and/or married Expats will be caught up in this 'crackdown'.  Those holders of LTR and Elite Visas who paid big bucks on the promise of a 'zero income tax' arrangement, are about to be screwed over.  I say unfortunately, because in order to apply those screws, they have to be applied across all 'foreigners' living in Thailand. 

 

The article points out that there are an estimated 300K of 'well off' Expats living in Thailand as either retired or married, plus another 150K well off Expats who are working here - they excluded the 1-2 million? poorer temp workers and illegals from Myamar Cambodia etc.  The article suggests that if this income tax is applied as it looks like it will be, then many of those Expats will leave Thailand, and that far less will decide to retire/move to Thailand in future.  While othger countries are trying to attract retirees to live there, Thailand is continuing to do things that will drive us out, and keep others away.

 

300K times 1 Million Baht on average per year for each Expat totals 300 Billion Baht.  I wonder if the Thai Govt/PM will listen to the fact that much of that money could be leaving Thailand soon, and also that it will not be coming back in every year.  I also wonder if the Thai Govt/PM realises that (according to TAT) 300 Billion Baht equals 6 Million Tourists.  Even if you halve those numbers it still totals 150 Billion Baht or 3 Million Tourists.

 

I wonder if they have said to themselves - 300K Expats times 150K each in income tax, equals 45 Billion in taxation revenue - Dee Mak Mak Chai Chai ????.   Actually, I would not be surprised - Thai (ill)logic never ceases to amaze me. 

I don't know how you calculate for 300,000 Expats per 1 million in taxes, I think those who have such high earnings are a small minority.But I suppose those in government think like winning the lottery, the higher the number you put the more chance you have of winning.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

55 minutes ago, newnative said:

     If push comes to shove, as an American I will probably switch the direct deposit of my social security to my Thai bank, rather than my American bank, where it goes now.  It seems pretty clear that with the government tax agreement in place between the US and Thailand, social security should be safe from being taxed twice.  (I know, 'should' is the iffy word in that sentence.)

    At a rate of 36 baht to the dollar, that would get me about 61,000 baht each month.  Maybe not quite enough for my partner and I to live on but fairly close and we would not have to take too much out of the Thai savings we already have here to make up the difference.  Some months it might be enough since I pay some of our bills with an American debit card.

    In an earlier post on one of these threads, I mentioned that all my foreign income goes into my American bank account and I wondered how Thailand would know that this dollar I send to Thailand is from already taxed social security and not from capital gains or dividend income (which is also already  taxed but, apparently, fair game).  If the onus is on me to prove the money source, at least I can show a deposit coming in directly from the social security administration.

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else. Thailand will not be able to tax Americans on any monies transferred to Thailand under their DTA, and the US Tax Dept will be responding very strongly if they attempt to do so.  USA is the only country in the world (AFAIK) that does this and gets away with it worldwide.   

[TroubleandGrumpy]

31 minutes ago, Robin said:

iIt seems to me that the crucial term here is "Tax Resident"  How is this defined?

Can someone confirm that the figure of 180days/year in Thailand is the correct qualification?  Is it days or nights in the country?

If so I will be counting my days here, and keeping under that limit.

Is it income only that will be taxed, or draw-down on capital held elsewhere.  

In UK  I am allowed to draw down 5% (i think) of my capital held in a bank there or anywhere else, without paying any tax on the money.

If i do this and then bring the money to Thailand does it count as money with tax paid, or will Thailand tax me on that as well.  Seems like lots o work for Thai taxa accountants, at least in he first year..

How is Thailand going to round up all the 'Tax Residents' nd tax them?

All seems very complicated, as I, like many retirees, do not have any official tax number in Thailand.

I pay tax in UK on unearned income, so I have a "unique tax reference' that i can be tracked with.

Is Thailand going to be able to do this?

I could live in Thailand on wife's income from ice growing etc., on which she pays no tax., and buy item s like air tickets on my UK credit card, paid in UK.

Thailand is going to be the loser i I do not bring any of my money  from UK.  My UK pension is paid into UK bank and taxed there.

Yes it is 180 days - iun total during any calendar year.

No one can answer those specific questions - no one knows - yet.

It starts Jan 1 2024 - before 30 June 2024 when the 180 days applies, we will have all those answers and a lot more - or we will be leaving Thailand.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, BE88 said:

I don't know how you calculate for 300,000 Expats per 1 million in taxes, I think those who have such high earnings are a small minority.But I suppose those in government think like winning the lottery, the higher the number you put the more chance you have of winning.

 

I mean an average in 1 Million Baht being brought into Thailand each year - which the Thai PM wants to tax and the Thai RD will, unless you/I/others can prove it was not income but savings.  And even then - it appears that part of the 'savings' might be included as taxable income on the basis that is was 'earned money' from previous years.  Yes - those in the Thai Govt think illogically and do not plan ahead very well - it is so obvious to us all.

When the Queen died she was buried within 2 weeks - everything and everybody was organised already. In Thailand it took over one year - and dont give me 'religious practice' - the real main reason is because it takes that long to organise everyone (and for them all to agree on where when and how).  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Relax, wait until they clarify everything, until then everybody is just speculating and complaining.

Yes - I agree - but being prepared rather than reacting late 'oh bugger what do I do now' is a wise move IMO.

 

If you really think that this is not potentially a huge problem (for some of us) then read this:

Sending a large money transfer to Thailand? What to know about taxes | Xe Blog

Quote:  Income Tax  The gift tax might or might not apply when you send money to Thailand, but the income tax almost always applies. Additionally, Thailand’s tax penalties are rather harsh. High fines and even jail time are rather common, even for rather innocent mistakes.

Penalties and interest on unpaid taxes are usually 1.5% per month. So, by the time the revenue department notices the error and sends a notice, the taxpayer might already owe thousands of baht in penalties and interest. Fines for unpaid taxes usually run between about ฿1,000 THB ($33 USD) and ฿200,000 THB ($6,700 USD). 

Banks are legally required to report all remittance and other international funds transactions. So, even if recipients do not get a form, if they do not add the remittance amount to their income, it’s only a matter of time before the revenue department notices the delinquency and takes action.

On a related note, when you send money to Thailand, especially if the transfer is large, Thai law requires senders to specify the purpose. 

IMO it is always better to know about it and make plans, than to find out too late and then your planning is rushed and under a cloud of hectic worry.  IMO cooly and calmly planning for things now is a wise move.  But as the Thai girls always say - 'up to you'.   

[RafPinto]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes - I agree - but being prepared rather than reacting late 'oh bugger what do I do now' is a wise move IMO.

 

If you really think that this is not potentially a huge problem (for some of us) then read this:

Sending a large money transfer to Thailand? What to know about taxes | Xe Blog

Quote:  Income Tax  The gift tax might or might not apply when you send money to Thailand, but the income tax almost always applies. Additionally, Thailand’s tax penalties are rather harsh. High fines and even jail time are rather common, even for rather innocent mistakes.

Penalties and interest on unpaid taxes are usually 1.5% per month. So, by the time the revenue department notices the error and sends a notice, the taxpayer might already owe thousands of baht in penalties and interest. Fines for unpaid taxes usually run between about ฿1,000 THB ($33 USD) and ฿200,000 THB ($6,700 USD). 

Banks are legally required to report all remittance and other international funds transactions. So, even if recipients do not get a form, if they do not add the remittance amount to their income, it’s only a matter of time before the revenue department notices the delinquency and takes action.

On a related note, when you send money to Thailand, especially if the transfer is large, Thai law requires senders to specify the purpose. 

IMO it is always better to know about it and make plans, than to find out too late and then your planning is rushed and under a cloud of hectic worry.  IMO cooly and calmly planning for things now is a wise move.  But as the Thai girls always say - 'up to you'.   

But as the Thai girls always say - 'up to you'. 

 

And they say: You are thinking too much.

[roobaa01]

Gday

On the THB 400000 income  u pay 10 % but I have thresholds or deductibles. U married even reduces your income even further. Like some people wrote already U can take undeclared USD 20000 into the country that's no nearly thb 740000 enough for one year living w/o paying tax on it. Then have money remitted THB 250000 also not taxed. So where is the problem keep the USD 20 k at home sent your missy to the money changer.

[BE88]

33 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I mean an average in 1 Million Baht being brought into Thailand each year - which the Thai PM wants to tax and the Thai RD will, unless you/I/others can prove it was not income but savings.  And even then - it appears that part of the 'savings' might be included as taxable income on the basis that is was 'earned money' from previous years.  Yes - those in the Thai Govt think illogically and do not plan ahead very well - it is so obvious to us all.

When the Queen died she was buried within 2 weeks - everything and everybody was organised already. In Thailand it took over one year - and dont give me 'religious practice' - the real main reason is because it takes that long to organise everyone (and for them all to agree on where when and how).  

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your comment. But now those in government have to hurry before their proverbial phlema because they have to find money for the famous 10,000 B. and therefore in three months the new law will come into force which will be explained better by perhaps the beginning of 2025

Edited September 28, 2023 by BE88

[circa02]

19 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday

On the THB 400000 income  u pay 10 % but I have thresholds or deductibles. U married even reduces your income even further. Like some people wrote already U can take undeclared USD 20000 into the country that's no nearly thb 740000 enough for one year living w/o paying tax on it. Then have money remitted THB 250000 also not taxed. So where is the problem keep the USD 20 k at home sent your missy to the money changer.

That's practical if you go home once a year, just fyi though -   leaving the UK  you  to declare on departure if carrying more than 10K GBP but they can also even seize if carrying over 1K if they have reasonable suspicious it is black money, just a couple of documents to support source should be enough though, and ideally bank wraps are identifiable - get a planned withdrawl, as it shows it's been through the banking system. There was an airport documentary on the other day where a guy had 15k GBP in cash but because the wraps were just his elastic bands from his taxi earnings they seized it. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by circa02

[RupertIII]

19 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Yes. I have claimed the 190K in addition to the 60k.  No problem.

Thank you Dogmatix. In light of MartinL's comment below would you mind advising if your previous claim(s) were in respect of income from employment or otherwise? My interest in this is based on pension and offshore investment income.

 

17 hours ago, MartinL said:

 

Confirmed on pages 6 & 7 of this booklet:-

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

 

although I read elsewhere - can't find it now - that this is for income from employment after 65 only.

 

A number of people here say or imply that all transfers from overseas will be taxed at 35%. On what basis is this claim made? Too many pages here to read the lot and find out so I might have misunderstood. No graduated taxation for incoming foreign transfers?

 

 

Thank you Martin, a handy booklet for reference.

Edited September 28, 2023 by RupertIII

[Thaindrew]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Trading in what?

shorting the Baht maybe ....

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Relax, wait until they clarify everything, until then everybody is just speculating and complaining.

problem is they will clarify on the 31st December 2023 (if not later) then there is no time for planning ... other than keeping below the 180 days in Thailand

[placnx]

59 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else. Thailand will not be able to tax Americans on any monies transferred to Thailand under their DTA, and the US Tax Dept will be responding very strongly if they attempt to do so.  USA is the only country in the world (AFAIK) that does this and gets away with it worldwide.   

It's not so simple. I used to live in France, and in 1979 the France-US tax treaty was revised and non-working American residents were subject to French tax on worldwide income. The treaty had a new provision to allow Americans extra credit on their US tax returns to compensate for the new situation. It was very complicated, so I and another 20000 Americans moved.

[FritsSikkink]

23 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

shorting the Baht maybe ....

You really think this measure has any influence on the THB, much bigger forces change values of currencies.

[redwood1]

9 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You really think this measure has any influence on the THB, much bigger forces change values of currencies.

If foreigners are not buying houses,condos,cars and keeping their money out of Thailand, I can guarantee the Baht is going nowhere but down down down...