Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Isaan sailor]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

     If push comes to shove, as an American I will probably switch the direct deposit of my social security to my Thai bank, rather than my American bank, where it goes now.  It seems pretty clear that with the government tax agreement in place between the US and Thailand, social security should be safe from being taxed twice.  (I know, 'should' is the iffy word in that sentence.)

    At a rate of 36 baht to the dollar, that would get me about 61,000 baht each month.  Maybe not quite enough for my partner and I to live on but fairly close and we would not have to take too much out of the Thai savings we already have here to make up the difference.  Some months it might be enough since I pay some of our bills with an American debit card.

    In an earlier post on one of these threads, I mentioned that all my foreign income goes into my American bank account and I wondered how Thailand would know that this dollar I send to Thailand is from already taxed social security and not from capital gains or dividend income (which is also already  taxed but, apparently, fair game).  If the onus is on me to prove the money source, at least I can show a deposit coming in directly from the social security administration.

Yes, bringing Social Security direct to a separate Thai bank account seems like a safe idea.  The reason I don’t do it now—I get a better rate with Wise than a bank exchange rate, and I have no control on the rate when SS comes in near the beginning of the month.  Right now, I have the luxury of waiting for the best rate.

[FritsSikkink]

35 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

If foreigners are not buying houses,condos,cars and keeping their money out of Thailand, I can guarantee the Baht is going nowhere but down down down...

They would have to sell up and leave fairly quickly (and not coming back). Don't see that happen in very big volumes. 

[newnative]

5 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

Yes, bringing Social Security direct to a separate Thai bank account seems like a safe idea.  The reason I don’t do it now—I get a better rate with Wise than a bank exchange rate, and I have no control on the rate when SS comes in near the beginning of the month.  Right now, I have the luxury of waiting for the best rate.

Yes, my reason, too, for having it currently deposited in my USA bank.

[Lingba]

and how exactly will they monitor this

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

they could become tax collectors??

They have been tax collectors for 147 years.

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

They have been tax collectors for 147 years.

They couldn't collect a runny nose in a flue epidemic.

[FritsSikkink]

27 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

They couldn't collect a runny nose in a flue epidemic.

What are your qualifications?

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

What are your qualifications?

For what?

[StayinThailand2much]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

If foreigners are not buying houses,condos,cars and keeping their money out of Thailand, I can guarantee the Baht is going nowhere but down down down...

Not likely. According to a recent BP article, there were (only) 156,596 expats in 2022. Exchange rates are mostly influenced by a strong/weak dollar, the crude oil price, or if Thailand's exports slump significantly.

[El Matador]

Haven't checked that forum in one week. Seems things are the same. Have to wait for clarification for a correct understanding.

 

I didn't expect that but I almost feel nostalgic of previous military government. So far, that "more modern" government is promising more tax headaches for expats, more Indian/Chinese tourists, and closing of canabis shops. This doesn't seem really attractive.

I keep waiting for a potential 90 days visa exemption for more hassle free visits to compensate but so far, nothing on the table.

[stat]

18 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Easy workaround with savings earned prior getting LTR Visa:

If you want to transfer $100K to Thailand, just buy an S&P500 ETF for $100K, then sell your shares right away or any time you need it (with good timing you could even realize some capital gain).

You then have proof of the ETF sale and can transfer sale proceed tax free the same year in Thailand.

If you worry about volatility just select a less volatile ETF/Stock of your choice or any other asset.

 

No one knows how this tax will be calculated exactly but I suppose if you open a separate bank account it SHOULD work. But maybe they ask where did the 100K come from...

[stat]

16 hours ago, Misty said:

What if they earn all that before they became a Thai tax resident. 

 

Or as in my case if they earned all that and paid Thai tax on it already as a tax resident, but before getting an LTR visa.

I am glad you realized that regardless of a royal degree etc everyone COULD be in danger of having to pay taxes on every penny they ever earned before the LTR visa and maybe even after.

[stat]

4 hours ago, RafPinto said:

I think soon, all those Youtubers living and working here and some of them making big money, they will soon stop to post more videos. Has anyone of them a work permit?

"It's also worth noting that YouTube takes a cut of the revenue generated by ads, which is around 45%. So, a YouTuber with 10,000 subscribers may earn an average of $1 to $2 per thousand views. Therefore, assuming a YouTuber gets around 1000 views per video and uploads two videos per week, they could earn approximately $8 to $16 per week, or $32 to $64 per month, solely from YouTube ads. However, this is just an estimate, and the actual earnings can be lower or higher, depending on the factors mentioned above.Reed More"

 

So really really big money to be made...????

[vukovar77]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

If foreigners are not buying houses,condos,cars and keeping their money out of Thailand, I can guarantee the Baht is going nowhere but down down down...

This is true.

[stat]

3 hours ago, freeworld said:

Relax, wait until they clarify everything, until then everybody is just speculating and complaining.

Fully agree, however I suspect there will not be a 100% clarification before June 2024 so one has to make plans in advance. Maybe wait until march and have the plans ready to leave as the 180 days close in. Better to leave at day 170 in case you have to visit TH for some days later in the year.

[stat]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else. Thailand will not be able to tax Americans on any monies transferred to Thailand under their DTA, and the US Tax Dept will be responding very strongly if they attempt to do so.  USA is the only country in the world (AFAIK) that does this and gets away with it worldwide.   

It is my understanding that US citizens that earn under 100K USD a year do not pay taxes to Uncle Sam, at least that is what a US guy told me.

[John Drake]

So all those of us from the US need to do is submit our IRS filings (which includes our social security numbers, financial status, home address, phone numbers, and bank accounts) to the Thai tax department and where it goes and how it's used, who knows??? No chance of it being passed along to people working illegally in the US for identity theft. Nope, not at all.

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You really think this measure has any influence on the THB, much bigger forces change values of currencies.

There is indirect impact from the PT flaky popularist economic policies which are the motivation for this. Market are not convinced that about ramping up govt debt for stuff like digital wallets, debt moratorium, mass transit prices that are unlikely to have any sustained impact on productivity or growth. Also the inflationary effects of the minimum wage hikes without contingent productivity gains is worrisome from a macro perspective.

 

[david555]

7 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

They couldn't manage to collect a small departure tax; do you really think they could become tax collectors??

would be easy if they wish it to so ..... just an extra document demanded by I.O. when doing whatever connection to your Stay Thailand status .... TIN  number by example ...

Edited September 28, 2023 by david555

[Isaan sailor]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

Yes, my reason, too, for having it currently deposited in my USA bank.

That gives me an idea:  how about a dedicated Social Security account at the Thai bank—but use Wise to fund it?  We could prove we send the same $$ amount each month, by referencing the rate that day on the Wise site.  It might be worth a try.  
This is a worst case example.  More likely this whole taxation BS will fall by the wayside.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, stat said:

I am glad you realized that regardless of a royal degree etc everyone COULD be in danger of having to pay taxes on every penny they ever earned before the LTR visa and maybe even after.

The LTR visa came from the previous government and in particular was the brainchild of ML Chayothid who was an advisor to the energy minister who pushed this project at the cabinet level for him. Chayothid was hoping for a ministry or at least a deputy minister role in this government with UTN but unfortunately was left out in the cold completely. So there is no champion for the LTR policy in this government and the BOI, which runs it is under the PM’s office. Of the million LTRs targeted by the Prayut government I think they have only bagged a small fraction of that so far, while the government seems focused on low end tourists from China, Kazakhstan et al for the moment. 

I don’t see any likelihood of reneging on LTR visas or the Royal Decree at the moment but I can also see them making a fairly restricted interpretation of the Royal Decree. We have already got the interpretation that only income earned after the visa was issued is exempt which is quite restrictive. Srettha and the RD may well feel that the LTR exemption is irksome in that it is inconsistent with his spur of the moment brainfart policy and clearly the LTR exemption would never even have been considered by this government.  So I would guess the chances of erring on the generous side in future interpretations of the exemption may be limited.
 

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, stat said:

It is my understanding that US citizens that earn under 100K USD a year do not pay taxes to Uncle Sam, at least that is what a US guy told me.

Wrong--but don't I wish.

[K2938]

17 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

The LTR visa came from the previous government and in particular was the brainchild of ML Chayothid who was an advisor to the energy minister who pushed this project at the cabinet level for him. Chayothid was hoping for a ministry or at least a deputy minister role in this government with UTN but unfortunately was left out in the cold completely. So there is no champion for the LTR policy in this government and the BOI, which runs it is under the PM’s office. Of the million LTRs targeted by the Prayut government I think they have only bagged a small fraction of that so far, while the government seems focused on low end tourists from China, Kazakhstan et al for the moment. 

I don’t see any likelihood of reneging on LTR visas or the Royal Decree at the moment but I can also see them making a fairly restricted interpretation of the Royal Decree. We have already got the interpretation that only income earned after the visa was issued is exempt which is quite restrictive. Srettha and the RD may well feel that the LTR exemption is irksome in that it is inconsistent with his spur of the moment brainfart policy and clearly the LTR exemption would never even have been considered by this government.  So I would guess the chances of erring on the generous side in future interpretations of the exemption may be limited.

We just have to see how things will develop.  Foreigners are clearly the unintended collateral damage in all this.  Probably nobody even thought about foreigners when drafting this and if they did, then they did not really realize that the typical foreigner starts with all his or her money outside Thailand while for the typical Thai it is exactly the other way round.  So these requirements are much more onerous for foreigners and moreover foreigners have it much easier to escape from all this by just leaving Thailand which is not really an option to the average Thai.  So while it is entirely possible that the doomsday scenario will happen, it is also entirely possible that foreigners will be either entirely carved out from this once the authorities had a chance to think through this or there will be so wide loopholes for foreigners that it will not really be very onerous for them.  We just have to wait and see how things will develop. 

 

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

IMO Americans will not be subjected to this new 'interpretation' - wait for confirmation, but it is very clear to me (and I know a bit about this area). American citizens are required to pay taxes irrespective of where they live in the World, and the US Tax Authorities mandate that all other countries coimpley with this - or else.

At what rate do Americans pay tax on for the first $120k ?

 

It's zero isn't it......

[StayinThailand2much]

2 hours ago, El Matador said:

Haven't checked that forum in one week. Seems things are the same. Have to wait for clarification for a correct understanding.

We will only know for sure once a forum member transfers a larger sum to a Thailand bank in 2024...

[StayinThailand2much]

19 minutes ago, K2938 said:

Probably nobody even thought about foreigners when drafting this (...)

The prime minister was quoted as saying that 'foreigners in Thailand are the target due to some "inequalities". (A post on this news forum quoted a related newspaper article a few days ago.)

Edited September 28, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[DrPhibes]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

At what rate do Americans pay tax on for the first $120k ?

 

It's zero isn't it......

Your thinking of Foreign Income Exclusion while working in a foreign country for a certain amount of time.  That is working income only.  Not retirement nor investment income.

[Somjot]

5 hours ago, Robin said:

iIt seems to me that the crucial term here is "Tax Resident"  How is this defined?

Can someone confirm that the figure of 180days/year in Thailand is the correct qualification?  Is it days or nights in the country?

How they count the 180 days?

Quite simple, let's say you arrive in Thailand on the 5th of March 11:00 PM and leave on the 25th of March at 03:00 AM.

They will count 21 days and not 20.

Every day you stay in the Kingdom counts and they will tell it from the stamps in your passport.

It doesn't make a difference if you arrived in Thailand at 11:00 PM on the 5th of March, as long as the arrival stamp in your passport says 5th of March, you have been in Thailand since the 5th of March.

[Somjot]

Guys, just calm down.

 

There is no reason for panic as you have all the time in the world to plan your future.

 

Let's say there will be taxes on rent or whatever kind of income you have, and you have decided for yourself not to stay more than 180 days or even to leave the country forever in such a case.

 

In the first case you have time until the 27th of June 2024 to leave the country for a long holiday (= 180 days, assuming you have been living in the country since the 1st of January or earlier).

 

In the second case you have much more time than that.

 

Why?

 

Because the deadline for your first tax declaration is April or May in the following year, which is April or May 2025.

 

And that is a lot of time to pack your things and tell Thailand “Djoe gan chad naa, don bai bai” (see you in my next life, sometime in the early afternoon).

Edited September 28, 2023 by Somjot

[Misty]

2 hours ago, stat said:

I am glad you realized that regardless of a royal degree etc everyone COULD be in danger of having to pay taxes on every penny they ever earned before the LTR visa and maybe even after.

Rhetorical questions