Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Tax officer is right if your income comes from pension

How will the Taxman know where any money I transfer via Wise, come from please?

Shall I have to show him all my UK Bank accounts?

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, freeworld said:

OK sorry missed the joke.

 

You can gift your foreign salary and local/foreign income, I don't think there is any restriction on doing that.

Interesting, thanks. Most of my foreign salary goes to my wife and kids anyway! 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Tax officer is right if your income comes from pension.

By deducting 100K expense in addition of your other allowances you will then have no tax to pay.

 

You can deduct expense (50% but not exceeding 100K baht) on Assessable Income Under Section 40 (1) (2): salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, rent allowance, employer-provided rent-free lodging, debt liability paid by your employer, and any money, property or benefit you received in connection to your employment.

 

You can also deduct expense (50% but not exceeding 100K baht or you may choose to deduct the actual expenses) on Assessable Income Under Section 40 (3): income from annuity, or income derived from a will, juristic act, or court decision, income from royalties, copyright, goodwill or any other rights of similar nature

You've confused me. That posters income is from pension yet you seem to be talking in terms of expenses that are pension related. If the pension is already being received rather than being contributed to, surely there is no deduction. Apologies if I've not understood this correctly.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I believe very strongly that using the correct nomenclature helps everyone not become confused regarding what the speaker/author is trying to convey. The problem is, one person starts off using the wrong term which others begin to use also and when somebody tries to apply the correct term, it causes even more confusion.......like you and me, like now! As you correctly point out, visa aren't renewed they are extended yet in hundreds of conversations in this and other similar forums, for many years, lots of people thought that their visa's were being renewed. So when a conversation arose about what visa a person was on, they replied incorrectly and became yet more confused. 

 

Regarding what is a Resident. Try going to Immigration in Thailand and begin the conversation by telling the I/O that you're  a Thai Resident and watch for the smile/smirk. Tell that same person you reside here or are a resident and all should be well. Tell us that you are Thailand Resident and we''l think you have been granted citizenship and will judge your words accordingly. If using the correct term/word to avoid that confusion is too difficult or irks you, consider putting my posts on ignore because as I knew from the very outset, that's where yours are going any minute now, mate!

 

As for filing a tax return being easy in Thailand, it is, I've filed several and it's very simple, how many have you filed and why have you found it so difficult?

Yes I can see that Mike - very strongly - but that is up to you.  I say this because I was the same 10 years ago - 'No it is not a Visa extension it is a Permission to Stay extension'.  But I realised that it does not really matter, as long as you know what the person means.  Certainly, I dont agree with them, but I learnt it is easier to let it go and do not 'correct' them.  

 

Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?

 

I would also suggest you rer-read all of your comments and mine regarding a Resident and tax resident. Nowhere do I say that I do not know the difference - I am very aware of them - I have spoken to a lawyer about applying for Residency - very little chance (not employed/working).  You assume that I dont know and then go into a rant - you are looking for disagreement Mike - re-read and you will see.

 

I have both studied all the taxation documents released by Thai RD, I have downloaded the Thai RD online tax return documents, I have studied all the press releases by the Thai Lawyers (including Sherrings which you gave), and I have been emailing back and forth with my Thai lawyer. It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA - and if you re-read one of your own posts you dont know anything about it when I specifically asked you:

Posted Tuesday at 06:54 PM

  On 10/10/2023 at 6:44 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please tell me Mike - where do you claim DTA exemptions via this 'easy enough to do' online tax return? 

080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th)

Maybe there is another online tax return system - please advise where that is - I could not find it.

I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment.

 

Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable.  And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys).  But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ???? 

[Yumthai]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

How will the Taxman know where any money I transfer via Wise, come from please?

Shall I have to show him all my UK Bank accounts?

Yes, you should show any supporting documents indicating all transactions for the tax year: pension, bank statements ... 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

How will the Taxman know where any money I transfer via Wise, come from please?

Shall I have to show him all my UK Bank accounts?

That is yet to be determined - exactly how the Thai RD wants Expats to 'report' their remittances into Thailand - if they do.  Right now, it would be that you complete the claim and attach what documents you think are relevent. But under the new 'method' it might be that much more is required - or the Thai RD may make a info release saying certain payments to foreigners on long term Visas is not required to be lodged - but we have to wait and see.

In a recent post I detailed what they did in Malaysia when they introduced this change in 2021 (I think). After much 'feedback' they delayed the implementation by 5 years, and exempted personal income taxes from being affected. They start their new 'method' in 2026 - hopefully Thailand does the same.  PS - expats on long term Visas in Malaysia are exmpted from taxes on remittances - as long as the money brought in, is for spending inside Malaysia and is not sent onwards to another country (without a valid reason).

 

[Mike Lister]

22 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes I can see that Mike - very strongly - but that is up to you.  I say this because I was the same 10 years ago - 'No it is not a Visa extension it is a Permission to Stay extension'.  But I realised that it does not really matter, as long as you know what the person means.  Certainly, I dont agree with them, but I learnt it is easier to let it go and do not 'correct' them.  

 

Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?

 

I would also suggest you rer-read all of your comments and mine regarding a Resident and tax resident. Nowhere do I say that I do not know the difference - I am very aware of them - I have spoken to a lawyer about applying for Residency - very little chance (not employed/working).  You assume that I dont know and then go into a rant - you are looking for disagreement Mike - re-read and you will see.

 

I have both studied all the taxation documents released by Thai RD, I have downloaded the Thai RD online tax return documents, I have studied all the press releases by the Thai Lawyers (including Sherrings which you gave), and I have been emailing back and forth with my Thai lawyer. It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA - and if you re-read one of your own posts you dont know anything about it when I specifically asked you:

Posted Tuesday at 06:54 PM

  On 10/10/2023 at 6:44 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please tell me Mike - where do you claim DTA exemptions via this 'easy enough to do' online tax return? 

080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th)

Maybe there is another online tax return system - please advise where that is - I could not find it.

I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment.

 

Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable.  And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys).  But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ???? 

"Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?"

 

I have explained this several times in different places but here it is again:

 

My income is derived from US SSc Pensions and UK State Pensions, 50/50, all of which is paid into a Bangkok Bank account directly here in Thailand. The US SSc portion is excluded income under the widely accepted DTA. The UK portion is assessible income, against which I file a UK and Thai tax return. The Thai tax return allows me to deduct 190k right off the top, thereafter I'm allowed 60k for my Personal Care Allowance, the net of that, about 50% of the total income or

+ 360K, - 190k, -60k = - 110k baht is applied against the Thai tx tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated, ergo, taxable income is negative. 

 

And since you seem to want details of all my financial affairs so you can double check those against things I have said, let me oblige you:

 

I own UK property that provides rental income which remains in the UK, I also savings in the UK and substantial savings in Thailand (because I knew a long time ago that this day would arrive). I also have an investment account in the UK which is pension related which will remain in the UK until I die and my wife will receive it as inheritance. Oh ye, I forgot, I'm considering selling my UK property, hopefully before 1 January. I'm doing that because I want to liquidate all my none Thai estate so that it is easier to settle when I pass on.

 

There, that's a profile of my finance and taxes. Now, you didn't answer my question, why is it you find filing a tax return so difficult, per your earlier post) and how many have you filed?

 

EDIT TO ADD: I forgot, I don't need to invoke a DTA because my assessable income transfers are negative to Thai tax. There are however years when interest income in Thailand earns enough to push into the tax payable band, in which case I just pay it or tell the RD I don't want the refund,

Edited October 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

"Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?"

 

I have explained this several times in different places but here it is again:

 

My income is derived from US SSc Pensions and UK State Pensions, 50/50, all of which is paid into a Bangkok Bank account directly here in Thailand. The US SSc portion is excluded income under the widely accepted DTA. The UK portion is assessible income, against which I file a UK and Thai tax return. The Thai tax return allows me to deduct 190k right off the top, thereafter I'm allowed 60k for my Personal Care Allowance, the net of that, about 50% of the total income or

+ 360K, - 190k, -60k = - 110k baht is applied against the Thai tx tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated, ergo, taxable income is negative. 

And since you seem to want details of all my financial affairs so you can double check those against things I have said, let me oblige you:

I own UK property that provides rental income which remains in the UK, I also savings in the UK and substantial savings in Thailand (because I knew a long time ago that this day would arrive). I also have an investment account in the UK which is pension related which will remain in the UK until I die and my wife will receive it as inheritance. Oh ye, I forgot, I'm considering selling my UK property, hopefully before 1 January. I'm doing that because I want to liquidate all my none Thai estate so that it is easier to settle when I pass on.

There, that's a profile of my finance and taxes. Now, you didn't answer my question, why is it you find filing a tax return so difficult, per your earlier post) and how many have you filed?

Thanks for that detailed explanation - now I understand - no you had not detailed that before. IMO you should be careful if/when they make this change - I suggest getting advice from a tax lawyer/accountant. The reason I say that is because while you are a tax resident in Thailand, the rental money you recieve in UK is taxable income in Thailand. 

In answer to your question. My Thai lawyer told me that a tax return in Thailand using a DTA for exmeption or credits is a complex matter and it would not be easy or cheap.  Likewise, I have seen two vlogs by lawyers in Thailand who both say any tax return involving DTAs is complex - and one that at this point in time they are only used for companies tax returns (not personal income tax).

So please tell me Mike - given that you have never done a tax return involving DTA exemptions and credits - what make you think that they will be easy?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks for that detailed explanation - now I understand - no you had not detailed that before. IMO you should be careful if/when they make this change - I suggest getting advice from a tax lawyer/accountant. The reason I say that is because while you are a tax resident in Thailand, the rental money you recieve in UK is taxable income in Thailand. 

In answer to your question. My Thai lawyer told me that a tax return in Thailand using a DTA for exmeption or credits is a complex matter and it would not be easy or cheap.  Likewise, I have seen two vlogs by lawyers in Thailand who both say any tax return involving DTAs is complex - and one that at this point in time they are only used for companies tax returns (not personal income tax).

So please tell me Mike - given that you have never done a tax return involving DTA exemptions and credits - what make you think that they will be easy?

Enough, I don't exist here to respond to your every challenge and to present you with detailed explanation of everything I say, do or you ask for! Get your tax advice from your lawyers, their blogs and the internet, if that's your thing, the debates between us here are simply not productive useful or interesting for me or the wider audience any more. We be done here.

[moogradod]

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Yes you understand my recent posts correctly. It was only yesterday I visited the local tax office, explained my situation of living here permanently, transferring 40k every month to my Bkk Bank for Immigration purposes. He proceeded to issue me with a Tax Number with the same number as my Pink Card, , filled in an online form and produced a tax assessment for last year on which I had to pay Bht 200, with an estimate of 4000 for 2023. I had showed him my bank book with the transfer entries.

Sounds good.  May I ask what happened to the tax declaration 2022 ? Forgotten and forgiven ?

 

And are these tax offices set up per Province (like Chonburi) or Sub-District within the same Province (like Pong or Na Chom Thian) ?

 

I will change my living adress by the end of this year within the same province, but I can decide if in 2023 or 2024. Would this matter then ?

 

I get my state pension directly remitted to my Thai Bank account, there are no accompaning papers apart from the entry in the bank-book and I get an SMS from the bank which says "via AUTO". This is from BKK-Bank and I could not find out yet what this means. This is all I could ever show to the tax guy apart from the initial acknowledgement that I get a pension (social security, but attention, this is Switzerland and different from the US) and what the amount is (original paper from the government) It is therefore very easy to identify the 12 remittances per year in the bank-book.

 

As far as I interpret the DTA between Switzerland and Thailand, the tax has to be paid in Thailand. This may have to do with my nationality which is NOT Swiss.

[SHA 2 BKK]

Interesting on Pensions.   I read the Australian Thai DTA last night.  It’s on the Thai RD Website and Pensions and Annuities paid by either country can only be taxed by the Country that paid it. So if your Australian and your only income is a Pension or Annuity my reading is no need to lodge a tax return in Thailand. 
 

Article 18

Pensions and annuities 

1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State.

2. The term "annuity" means a stated sum payable periodically at stated times during life or during a specified or ascertainable period of time under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration in money 

[Negita43]

Just a question:

Surely whatever means they use for "collecting" what they see as their rightful dues ???? cannot start until 180 days into 2024  as only then can they ascertain the length of a persons stay and hence if they are a tax resident and even then people may take trips out of the country during the course of the year.

So I don't see how they are going to collect the tax until at least 2025

Of course they could collect via banks receiving money and them tell you to request a repayment depending on your tax statusat the end of the year - ho ho

Edited October 13, 2023 by Negita43
typo

[deejai33]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

Yes, you should show any supporting documents indicating all transactions for the tax year: pension, bank statements ... 

I agree.   There is very little information shown about money transferred to thailand in the receiving thai banks' bank book.  A date, an amount, and a code possibly meaning from overseas at best.   For many the source account will just show an FX specialist 'bank' such as Wise, Hi-FX.

 

Not enough info to prove or disprove the tax status of the money.

 

To prove that, in most cases, you need all sorts of documents and transaction trails and notes on where the money originated, possibly over many years.  Can be done, but needs effort and open to challenge for more proof.

 

[Negita43]

Digital Wallet and taxing income from abroad?

 

For the source of the money, which is estimated to total about 560 billion baht, Mr Julapun assured that there will be financial sources to fund the project.

 

[deejai33]

16 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

 

So I don't see how they are going to collect the tax until at least 2025

 

Just to scaremonger, the RD could start a program of checking expats prior years tax status !  Get some practice in on tax year 2022, 2023.    Train staff and iron out issues......

 

 

[KannikaP]

51 minutes ago, moogradod said:

May I ask what happened to the tax declaration 2022 ? Forgotten and forgiven ?

 

filled in an online form and produced a tax assessment for last year on which I had to pay Bht 200, with an estimate of 4000 for 2023

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

The US SSc portion is excluded income under the widely accepted DTA.

I have posted this prior:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[redwood1]

48 minutes ago, Negita43 said:

Digital Wallet and taxing income from abroad?

 

For the source of the money, which is estimated to total about 560 billion baht, Mr Julapun assured that there will be financial sources to fund the project.

 

Even if every expat in Thailand paid 1,000 dollars a year in taxes...It would only be a drop in the bucket as far as paying off 560 billion baht.....I am talking like 150-200 years....

 

Do the math and see for yourself....

Edited October 13, 2023 by redwood1

[KannikaP]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

visa aren't renewed they are extended

Is it not your Permission to Stay which is extended, not your Visa, to be pedantic about it?

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Yes you understand my recent posts correctly. It was only yesterday I visited the local tax office, explained my situation of living here permanently, transferring 40k every month to my Bkk Bank for Immigration purposes. He proceeded to issue me with a Tax Number with the same number as my Pink Card, , filled in an online form and produced a tax assessment for last year on which I had to pay Bht 200, with an estimate of 4000 for 2023. I had showed him my bank book with the transfer entries.

Did he ever question what money do you actually live from?

I know it's possible to live on 40k, but did the taxman accept this? 

(I seem to remember you are married - I maybe wrong - and 2 persons living on 40k? Certainly possible upcountry, but did the taxman accept this?)

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Did he ever question what money do you actually live from?

I know it's possible to live on 40k, but did the taxman accept this? 

(I seem to remember you are married - I maybe wrong - and 2 persons living on 40k? Certainly possible upcountry, but did the taxman accept this?)

No he did not question it. You seem to have remembered incorrectly because we are not married. Easy to live on 40k when house & car are paid for. And, yes, he did accept it.

Edited October 13, 2023 by KannikaP

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA

Oh BS. My US DTA with Thailand exempts my Air Force and Social Security income from Thai taxation. And, as the US has "exclusive" taxation rights on this income, it is therefore not assesseable (taxable) income by Thailand -- and as such, doesn't have to appear in any Thai tax return (why would it have to, if it plays no part in the Thai taxation scheme?). What could be easier than, "just don't mention it in the Thai tax return, as it's not a player."

 

Of course, on the US side of tax returns, it's included in my US return, and taxed accordingly -- with no needed reference to a related Thai tax return, as no credits here, as being exempted from Thai taxes, there could be no credits. 

 

Anyway, guess I'll have to have my Air Force and Social Security payments direct deposited to their own, separate bank account. Thus, my Wise transfers to Thailand, from this account, can be clearly shown as from "exempted" income. However, doubt we'll ever get there, as Thailand doesn't have the resources, or know how, to parse funds wired into Thailand.

 

[K2938]

1 hour ago, Negita43 said:

Just a question:

Surely whatever means they use for "collecting" what they see as their rightful dues ???? cannot start until 180 days into 2024  as only then can they ascertain the length of a persons stay and hence if they are a tax resident and even then people may take trips out of the country during the course of the year.

So I don't see how they are going to collect the tax until at least 2025

Of course they could collect via banks receiving money and them tell you to request a repayment depending on your tax statusat the end of the year - ho ho

Not necessarily true.  If you are remitting something which could be construed as being income or being partially contaminated with income from a prior year in which you were a tax resident in Thailand, then there are indications that you might be taxable when submitting these funds to Thailand even if at the time of remittance you are not or not yet a tax resident of Thailand.

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State.

My read of this is: Private pensions are taxable "only" in Thailand. And per Article 19, Australian govt pensions are only taxable by Australia. Pretty much like the US.

 

So, looks like Aussies will need to file a Thai tax return, since they, like the rest of us, won't have that "bring that private pension into Thailand next year" to escape taxation in Thailand.

[KannikaP]

3 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Yes, you should show any supporting documents indicating all transactions for the tax year: pension, bank statements ... 

Only if asked for them, and then tell the Taxman that it will take a long time to get the documents from UK. Until then, no tax can be levied or paid. 

[Mike Lister]

As somebody in another thread on this subject pointed out, foreigners in Thailand have been filing returns for years using the facilities of DTA's. Every time income is brought over during the year it is earned, the DTA is invoked.

[JimGant]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

foreigners in Thailand have been filing returns for years using the facilities of DTA's. Every time income is brought over during the year it is earned, the DTA is invoked.

Invoked where? If my US govt pension is "exclusively" taxed by the US, who cares what year I bring it over to Thailand..... per treaty, it never plays any part in the Thai tax scheme, meaning: no reference to it is required in the filing of Thai taxes.

[Lorry]

57 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

No he did not question it. You seem to have remembered incorrectly because we are not married. Easy to live on 40k when house & car are paid for. And, yes, he did accept it.

Thank you for all your valuable information. 

Greatly appreciated 

[The Cyclist]

22 minutes ago, JimGant said:

My read of this is: Private pensions are taxable "only" in Thailand. And per Article 19, Australian govt pensions are only taxable by Australia. Pretty much like the US.

My understanding of the UK DTA also. Which is why my Private pension ( Taxed in the UK ) last payment to Thailand will be on the 15 Dec, then paid to my UK account.

 

My Government pension ( Taxed in the UK ) and covered by the DTA will continue coming into Thailand on a monthly basis.

 

I will draw down my $ account to make up the shortfall if needed, until such times as the RD provides clarity.

[Lorry]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Invoked where? If my US govt pension is "exclusively" taxed by the US, who cares what year I bring it over to Thailand..... per treaty, it never plays any part in the Thai tax scheme, meaning: no reference to it is required in the filing of Thai taxes.

I don't think any taxman in the world would accept your reasoning. 

"Show me all you've got!"

And then it's THEIR decision what is taxable and what not.