Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

"Same thing, whenever they introduce some new immigration hassle - a vague notice....."

 

But the "vague notice" is that the fault of the immigration bureau or just very poor reporting / journalist skills?

 

(I wrote journalist skills but that's a skill which is very rare in LOS!)  

 

I think often enough it's both. I recall instances were immigration officers were baffled by new regulations, or weren't 100% sure what was required. All the more so when two different branches of Thai government are involved, making it a three-way.

[Lwood]

17 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Also curious if I could still gift to my wife, whilst I am non-resident, savings from previous years, with trail, under the new arrangements, or whether she would get hammered for Tax on any remittance anyway.  Another potential problem.

I raised the same idea as a question under another topic.  It seems to me the generous annual Thai Gifts tax exemptions possibly offer an effective and ongoing way to at least reduce the scale of a potential income tax liability for those who have family members in Thailand and are prepared to, as an example, have their wife own a car in her name and pay for other big ticket items.  Obvioulsy, it will need to be structured properly, home country ineritance and gifts rules will need to be considered, and everyone will need to do their own homework.

[morg]

I rent property in UK will I have to pay tax

 

[UKresonant]

Just now, Lwood said:

I raised the same idea as a question under another topic.  It seems to me the generous annual Thai Gifts tax exemptions possibly offer an effective and ongoing way to at least reduce the scale of a potential income tax liability for those who have family members in Thailand and are prepared to, as an example, have their wife own a car in her name and pay for other big ticket items.  Obvioulsy, it will need to be structured properly, home country ineritance and gifts rules will need to be considered, and everyone will need to do their own homework.

My long term past and future thoughts are to own nothing in Thailand, (maybe apart from clothes, toothbrush travel bag, shaver, and computer or tablet). Only the wife and two kids have  Thai ID cards, so they are the ones to own 'Stuff' over there . 

 

But it's a sad  day when you have to even consider this subject regarding close family.

 

I hope these rumours  of  global income tax aspiration are not copied from the USA , especially if they copy citizens have to report. (since I quite enjoy the 5 yearly mini-break to London with the daughter to renew her Thai passport, the last one was within an 8 day border bounce back to the UK, for a last ME Visa entry, not long before COVID hit).

[jayboy]

On 11/11/2023 at 3:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

I do, I'm a good boy. :))

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

It sounds like you're chastising me for filing a tax return, as the law requires, what can be said!

[Ben Zioner]

I paid  taxes in Israel, Germany, France, Australia  and not yet in Thailand. In  the former four countries there was, everywhere,  intangible evidence of the return on my tax investment. Australia paid me employment benefits even  before I paid my first cent of Tax. Here for 25% of my hard earned income I'll benefit from the "friendly" services of Thai immigration and perpetual potholes. So I think there is some sense in minimising the tax we'll pay here.

[BobBKK]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:56 AM, Mike Lister said:

The state pension is still under the PA threshold, even after the increase in April.

Yes, but you are ASSUMING that is all the income someone has - that is rarely the case and it IS TAXABLE.

[jayboy]

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It sounds like you're chastising me for filing a tax return, as the law requires, what can be said!

 

Far from it: it could be a simple sense of duty which in some ways I admire but it's a personal decision to voluntarily pay tax when the authorities do not in practice require it to be paid.However there are plenty of laws in every country on the statute book which are not enforced.

 

Let's see what 2024 brings.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

Yes, but you are ASSUMING that is all the income someone has - that is rarely the case and it IS TAXABLE.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm merely stating a a fact. What other income a person may or may not have is not part of the point being made.

[BobBKK]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

I'm not assuming anything, I'm merely stating a a fact. What other income a person may or may not have is not part of the point being made.

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Far from it: it could be a simple sense of duty which in some ways I admire but it's a personal decision to voluntarily pay tax when the authorities do not in practice require it to be paid.However there are plenty of laws in every country on the statute book which are not enforced.

 

Let's see what 2024 brings.

 

 

I'm actually not that civic minded but I could see many years ago that we would reach this point and I didn't want to get caught out, in case somebody in the RD wanted to go digging into my history. I now have three years returns under my belt, even the lady at the RD asked me why I was filing when I didn't get a refund so I had to explain what the law and RD rules are.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

I'm not going to argue with you, the State pension is at the bottom of the personal allowance stack, the total amount of the full state pension is still less than the personal allowance, ergo, it is not taxable (at present). If people have other income that sits on top of the pension, that is taxable. Now, if you ask the question, is the state pension capable of being taxed, if it exceeds the value of the personal allowance, the answer is maybe, we don't know for sure what government will or wont do if ever that point is reached. It has been said that in the event the state pension begins to exceed the personal allowance, the personal allowance will be managed upwards to ensure the state pension is not taxed. Why? Because it would be disingenuous to say the least if the government were to pay people the state pension and then demand a portion back in taxes. Done, out.

 

Government responded

This response was given on 31 July 2023

The Personal Allowance is high enough that pensioners whose sole income is the new or basic State Pension do not pay income tax. The State Pension is designed to replace income and so is taxable.

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/635729

Edited November 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[BobBKK]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not going to argue with you, the State pension is at the bottom of the personal allowance stack, the total amount of the full state pension is still less than the personal allowance, ergo, it is not taxable (at present). If people have other income that sits on top of the pension, that is taxable. Now, if you ask the question, is the state pension capable of being taxed, if it exceeds the value of the personal allowance, the answer is maybe, we don't know for sure what government will or wont do if ever that point is reached. It has been said that in the event the state pension begins to exceed the personal allowance, the personal allowance will be managed upwards to ensure the state pension is not taxed. Why? Because it would be disingenuous to say the least if the government were to pay people the state pension and then demand a portion back in taxes. Done, out.

 

Government responded

This response was given on 31 July 2023

The Personal Allowance is high enough that pensioners whose sole income is the new or basic State Pension do not pay income tax. The State Pension is designed to replace income and so is taxable.

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/635729

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

[Andycoops]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

The existing regulation isn't enforced nor do the Thai authorities expect foreign residents or Thais to pay tax on overseas non current income streams.That of course may change wef 2024.Let's see.If I am required by law to pay more tax, that's fine.

 

For those who pay tax unnecessarily I can think of several adjectives - public spirited, hopelessly naive etc but 'good' doesn't really come to mind.

 

Those foreigners who have a desperate need to pay tax regardless of whether it is required or not can always write a cheque and send it to the Thai Ministry of Finance.I'm sure it would be welcomed.

I haven't written a cheque in 15 years and I don't know anyone who does these days...

[Flyguy330]

19 hours ago, morg said:

I rent property in UK will I have to pay tax

 

Do you pay tax in the UK on your rental income?

Can you produce documentation showing how much you've paid?

Are you going to remit that taxed rental income to Thailand?

If your answers are all YES then you shouldn't have to pay tax in Thailand because the UK has a DTA and you've already been taxed there.

If your answers are NO (but you do remit the money to Thailand) then you may be facing tax in Thailand on that remittance - if they go ahead with this new law in Jan 2024.

 

[Deerculler]

Will we have to pay tax on our pensions from our home countries?

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

The State Pension is not a government pension, government pensions are  taxable, just as private pensions are taxable.

[bugger bognor]

5 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 

Yes, it is, someone said the UK pension is not taxable - it is, and that is blatant misinformation. All income is taxable in the UK it is NOT a state benefit that avoids tax.

 

[jayboy]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm actually not that civic minded but I could see many years ago that we would reach this point and I didn't want to get caught out, in case somebody in the RD wanted to go digging into my history. I now have three years returns under my belt, even the lady at the RD asked me why I was filing when I didn't get a refund so I had to explain what the law and RD rules are.

Oh dear

[The Cyclist]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It is important to note that the PA is currently set at a level high enough to ensure that those pensioners whose sole income is the new State Pension or basic State Pension do not pay any income tax.

 

The 10.1% increase in April 2023 and the ( as yet undecided, either 8.5% or 7.9% in April 2024 ) will put many State Pensioners over the £12,570 tax threshold.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, jayboy said:

Oh dear

I don't understand what your problem is, it doesn't cost me anything and I don't pay any extra tax plus it means my tax return here is legal. Contrast that with the hundreds of tax returns that expats have filed to recover tax paid on bank interest and have not bothered to complete the rest of the return regarding income details. How about if the RD does decide it wants to audit a few people, anyone who gets their pension deposited directly into a Thai bank (as I do) but didn't declare it when they reclaimed the tax paid on bank interest could get well and truly stuffed for filing a fraudulent return.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The 10.1% increase in April 2023 and the ( as yet undecided, either 8.5% or 7.9% in April 2024 ) will put many State Pensioners over the £12,570 tax threshold.

Does it? I read that the forthcoming increase would maintain it below the PA. If the state pension is 201 pounds per week, that's 11,051 per year if increased by 8.5%.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[jayboy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't understand what your problem is, it doesn't cost me anything and I don't pay any extra tax plus it means my tax return here is legal. Contrast that with the hundreds of tax returns that expats have filed to recover tax paid on bank interest and have not bothered to complete the rest of the return regarding income details. How about if the RD does decide it wants to audit a few people, anyone who gets their pension deposited directly into a Thai bank (as I do) but didn't declare it when they reclaimed the tax paid on bank interest could get well and truly stuffed for filing a fraudulent return.

 

No comment.

[UKresonant]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 

I have more than one government pension - it is taxed.

Government or non-Government list

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

 

If they are Government pensions on that list, the UK will always tax it in the UK

Discussing a Civil Service pension with HMRC (albiet 5 years ago) it is covered by the UK Thailand DTA, however she said it is possible in some cases they would want the tax paid and refund it. but probably not.  (discussion was context assuming I was basic rate mortal e.g. under £50kish these days, but only£30k ish in Thailand )   

 

 

This wording is on the tax coding letter for someone who's state pension exceeds the personal allowance;-

 

"State Pension Note 2. This income is taxable but tax is not taken off the pension before it is paid to you.

We will use the tax-free allowance against your pension so you pay tax on this" ....

 

The State pension amount exceeding the personal tax allowance is then added to another pension and has tax paid by that scheme.

 

So if you are below the personal tax free allowance, that goes against the other pensions.

 

I'm not sure what they do if you don't have another pension in payment..

Edited November 13, 2023 by UKresonant

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Does it? I read that the forthcoming increase would maintain it below the PA. If the state pension is 201 pounds per week, that's 11,051 per year if increased by 8.5%.

 

That is the new pension.

 

I believe it applies to people on the old pension who also have the SERPS 2 or whatever it was called.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

That is the new pension.

 

I believe it applies to people on the old pension who also have the SERPS 2 or whatever it was called.

I'm on the old pension and that's even lower. I was contracted out on SERPS but that part of my pension isn't State pension, it's private.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Mike Lister

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm on the old pension and that's even lower.

 

Yes, that is possible, especially if

 

1 - You are on a frozen pension.

 

2 - You were previously opted out

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, that is possible, especially if

 

1 - You are on a frozen pension.

 

2 - You were previously opted out

My state pension is frozen but every few years I return and it gets uprated, I did that last, 5 years ago by moving into my UK flat and saying I'd returned.

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

My state pension is frozen but every few years I return and it gets uprated, I did that last, 5 years ago by moving into my UK flat and saying I'd returned.

 

In the last 5 years you will have lost about 20-25% in annual increases.

 

Were you ever " Opted out " in previous employment ?
 

That would explain your lower level of pension.

Edited November 13, 2023 by The Cyclist
Typo