Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

This is why some immigrations offices are now asking for a tax certificate (or equivalent) when doing extensions based on the 65K pm method. 

 

And that's not "Scaremongering" it's a simple fact... 

 

What offices? Some offices ask for a source-of -funds letter but I don't see that as a tax-certificate equivalent. 

 

And scaremongering is when your intent is to make someone scared.

Edited December 31, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I gave the money to Wise in the UK and they paid me the money from their account in Thailand so technically no money has been remitted into Thailand. 

 

At the recent US Chamber webinar on the new Thai tax regime for expats, the panelists opined that Wise transfers into Thailand would be considered as remittances just the same as traditional wire transfers.

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

What offices? Some offices ask for a source-of -funds letter but I don't see that as a tax-certificate equivalent. 

 

And scaremongering is when your intent is to make someone scared.

It was reported in this thread (or one of the other ones) that a BM was asked to show a Tax certificate when doing their extension,  I use 800K in the bank so didn't really take note of where it was posted.. 

 

IMHO, nobody has done any "scaremongering", they've just shared their thoughts & am sure if it came across any other way then that's not what was intended - As per my post above there are guys who should have been paying tax all along & they will probably get away with not paying tax in the future as I'm sure RD has no interest in an Expat bringing in < 800K pa.

 

The game changer could be if immigration do start asking for a certificate showing you've paid tax on that money, guys bringing in private pensions from the UK would be able to show their P60 which details pension earned & tax paid, I have no idea what you guys from the US would use.. 

 

 

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I have no idea what you guys from the US would use.. 

I agree.

[TheAppletons]

36 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

What offices? Some offices ask for a source-of -funds letter but I don't see that as a tax-certificate equivalent. 

 

 

 

  There are no credible and verified instances of this happening, that's why you don't know which immigration offices currently ask for tax returns.  

[Rampant Rabbit]

I  just remitted 10.4  billion baht........thats  that settled then

[jerrymahoney]

19 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  There are no credible and verified instances of this happening, that's why you don't know which immigration offices currently ask for tax returns.  

Musta got that answer from a ChatBot.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

31 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It was reported in this thread (or one of the other ones) that a BM was asked to show a Tax certificate when doing their extension,  I use 800K in the bank so didn't really take note of where it was posted.. 

 

IMHO, nobody has done any "scaremongering", they've just shared their thoughts & am sure if it came across any other way then that's not what was intended - As per my post above there are guys who should have been paying tax all along & they will probably get away with not paying tax in the future as I'm sure RD has no interest in an Expat bringing in < 800K pa.

 

The game changer could be if immigration do start asking for a certificate showing you've paid tax on that money, guys bringing in private pensions from the UK would be able to show their P60 which details pension earned & tax paid, I have no idea what you guys from the US would use.. 

Agree - it is just people sharing their opinions and ideas.  Those complaining about all that 'noise' should just bury their heads a little deeper and cover their ears, and stop complaining about our discussions. 

 

Tax Certificate at Immigration - that comment was also made by a tax consultant on their website (forgot which one - too many). They said that if/when the Immigration Dept asks for a 'tax certificate' (or something to show a tax return was completed), then we all know that it is 'game over' and all Expats on long term Visas will all have to lodge a tax return every year.  That IMO is the critical nexus point - Will the Thai RD state that Expats are exempted on the basis that the money they bring into Thailand is Pensions and/or Savings (yeehaa) - or will they state that Expats must lodge a tax return and prove to their satisfaction that the money they bring into Thailand is Pensions and/or Savings (bugger) - or will they continue to say nothing and continue to leave us in the dark and waiting.   As that recent good article in the Pattaya Mail about Thailand becoming less of a popular places for Retirees states: "That’s no way to run a taxation system or to market a country to the outside world." 

Thailand’s popularity as a retirement destination nearing crunch point - Pattaya Mail

 

[Mike Teavee]

37 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I agree.

I'm sorry Jerry, this really did make me laugh :) & "I have no Idea" probably sums up most of the posts on this thread!

 

Happy New Year :) 

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

REDUX My post 9 OCT 23 a hundred pages back:

 

There have been plenty of posts throughout the thread telling doomers & gloomers to calm the ( deleted ) down. It appears to go one earhole ( if they even comprehend it ) and straight out the other.

 

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

I have been on the receiving end of 2 doomsday scenarios:

 

 

Sure. Like the poster who informed me that the RD could investigate my FCA remittances between 2009 & 2019, which could take up to 2030 to complete and I  would accrue massive penalties and interest.

 

Said poster went rather quiet when I told them the RD could investigate to their hearts content, and take as long as they like. I was never a tax resident between 2009 & 2019.

 

Why do they even take the time to post such garbage ?

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

This is why some immigrations offices are now asking for a tax certificate (or equivalent) when doing extensions based on the 65K pm method. 

 

And that's not "Scaremongering" it's a simple fact... 

 

Ohhhhhh sweet baby jesus

 

Some internet guy saying that he had ' heard ' does not make anything a fact.

 

What it makes is someone spreading gossip and hearsay, which might also be called scaremongering.

[jerrymahoney]

19 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Happy New Year :) 

Ok. No big deal. And as we say now in 20% of the US population: Feliz año nuevo

[Mike Teavee]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Ohhhhhh sweet baby jesus

 

Some internet guy saying that he had ' heard ' does not make anything a fact.

 

What it makes is someone spreading gossip and hearsay, which might also be called scaremongering.

Look it was posted on here that a BM was asked to show a tax certificate for his extension whilst doing one based on 65K pm income.  

 

Why, Who, When, I couldn't give a toss as I use the 800K in the bank, but it was posted on here so I mentioned it. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[quake]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I admit, I am very easily triggered... Doesn't make people less of a fckin idiot though... 

 

Simple example, I use the 65K pm income method remitting income as it accrues & am from a country that doesn't have a DTA with Thailand... I have always been liable for tax on that income in Thailand, few (I'd bet next to no) Expats pay it. 

This is why some immigrations offices are now asking for a tax certificate (or equivalent) when doing extensions based on the 65K pm method. 

And that's not "Scaremongering" it's a simple fact... 

 

( You above)

Please post a link to the government, immigration or revenue department,   facts of your  statement. 

( relevant part in bold )  and also state the immigration  offices in question.

Thanks 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by quake

[JimGant]

An observation: Those with 800k in the bank for retirement extensions, as of 31 Dec 2023, will not come under Immigration scrutiny for taxes, since pre Jan 2024 monies are exempt from the new proposed rules. Just don't let that 800k drop down, as allowed, since the money you backfill with, before your next extension, WILL be tainted under the new rules -- and maybe subject to Imm scrutiny.

 

But, kinda late now to switch from the 65k/mo to the 800k method. I never quite understood why those who had both options, complained about the opportunity cost of losing home country interest to the lower Thai rates. If this made the difference between you eating chicken instead of steak -- well, your problem was more extensive than opportunity cost.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

An observation: Those with 800k in the bank for retirement extensions, as of 31 Dec 2023, will not come under Immigration scrutiny for taxes, since pre Jan 2024 monies are exempt from the new proposed rules. Just don't let that 800k drop down, as allowed, since the money you backfill with, before your next extension, WILL be tainted under the new rules -- and maybe subject to Imm scrutiny.

 

We will all come under scrutiny. Or none of us will come under scrutiny.

 

And going by your example, I would say the 800k in the bank would be the ones that would come  under scrutiny.

 

Thats great, you have 800k in the bank. Now what are you living on.

 

Easy to see what the 65 - 75k a month guy is living on.

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

And going by your example, I would say the 800k in the bank would be the ones that would come  under scrutiny.

 

Huh? That money was already here before Jan 1, 2024 -- thus grandfathered from the post Jan 1, 2024 remittance rules..... Please share your logic, if it exists.....

 

Quote

Thats great, you have 800k in the bank. Now what are you living on.

 Wise transfers of my Air Force and Social Security pay, which are exclusively taxable by the US. For the Mercedes purchase, I transferred money from my savings account, founded with an inheritance from Aunt Martha. Should the RD want to have a few rounds on income vs capital, that might prove interesting. But, I really don't think they have, or can afford to have, the resources for such scrutiny. No, they'll reap enough new money when they finally post definitive rules on their latest tax scheme -- and then rely on self-assessment.

Edited December 31, 2023 by JimGant

[Mike Teavee]

30 minutes ago, quake said:

 

Simple example, I use the 65K pm income method remitting income as it accrues & am from a country that doesn't have a DTA with Thailand... I have always been liable for tax on that income in Thailand, few (I'd bet next to no) Expats pay it. 

This is why some immigrations offices are now asking for a tax certificate (or equivalent) when doing extensions based on the 65K pm method. 

And that's not "Scaremongering" it's a simple fact... 

 

( You above)

Please post a link to the government, immigration or revenue department,   facts of your  statement. 

( relevant part in bold )  and also state the immigration  offices in question.

Thanks 

Read my previous post, somebody posted on here that they had been asked for a Tax certificate, I can't remember when or in what thread nor do I care as I use the 800K in the bank method...

 

If you use the 65K pm method it's your job to find out whether it's true or not not mine.

 

 

[quake]

24 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you've been in Thailand for any period of time, you'll know that quite often, new official measures are frequently adopted and implemented surreptitiously, sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't hence with drawl of them goes unnoticed if they are later found to be problematic.  If somebody has said a tax clearance certificate was required for visa extension, I would not be too hasty in calling it BS. I recall years ago when I went to extend my long stay visa and was asked, out of the blue, for a copy of my lease. When I reported that event on TVF, others called it BS, subsequently leases and/or proof of residence became standard documents at visa extension time. And since there has long been a law on the books regarding tax clearance certificates, albeit not used currently, the likelihood that it will be revived at some point is high.

 

Yes, one in a blue moon , yes it happens.

But people trying to Crowbar in, that it's in some way a new requirement,  is just BS,

and that's what's going on  here. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by quake

[The Cyclist]

17 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Huh? That money was already here before Jan 1, 2024 -- thus grandfathered from the post Jan 1, 2024 remittance rules..... Please share your logic, if it exists.....

 

Huh ?
 

I never said otherwise, my 800k has been in the account since 2011. 

 

But if this is about tax residents, tax and immigration. Then I would fully expect immigration on my next extension ( Nov 2024 ) when I give them the details of the 800k to ask what I am remitting to live on.

 

Which brings me on nicely to

 

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Wise transfers of my Air Force and Social Security pay, which are exclusively taxable by the US.

 

Or in my case, monthly transfers of Government Pension (  taxable only in UK ) is the money that I will be remitting to live on.

 

Therefore 800k for extension + other to live on. ( The other being open to scrutiny for rax residents ) not the 800k in bank account for years.

 

Or

 

65k per month, which covers both extension and  money to live on.

[Presnock]

On 12/18/2023 at 8:51 PM, whiteman said:

Just asking I get paid a tax-free pension in New Zealand from a defined benefit plan that I had for over 30 years with AXA. When I first started to pay into it the product said all pensions will in the end be paid to the member Tax free. So I am wondering did Axa pay the tax on the accumulating returns over the 30 years that it earned on my contributions? If so do I pay tax on any money I bring in from the proceeds of this pension?

blv you should check the DTA between NZ and Thailand.  Some pensions from govt funds are exept in many of the DTA's.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Ok. No big deal. And as we say now in 20% of the US population: Feliz año nuevo

after a record month of immigration from south of the border, probably a lot more than 20%...just saying

[Presnock]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:41 AM, bugger bognor said:

You. Are delusional that would require new laws to be made unenforceable and would be frowned upon globally! Thailand would be a laughing stock and pray tell me any countries in th world that taxes money at source 

US taxes US govt pensions and social security at source only according to the DTA

[Presnock]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:13 PM, JimGant said:

 Not up to Thailand for this determination. If Thailand has "exclusive" taxation rights per the DTA on certain incomes, like private pensions and IRAs (which "only may be taxed in the country of residence"), then they get to keep all the taxes they collect under their tax rules. Only the US, in this example, determines whether or not to allow a tax credit in order to eliminate double taxation; but of course the US only realizes any taxes collected, if the US tax bill exceeds the allowed credits. And the only reason the US can tax this income, which is the exclusive taxation right of Thailand, is because of the saving clause, which says, the US may tax all incomes as if the DTA didn't exist -- with a few exceptions, like alimony and child support.

 

But, the DTA is not the sole reason double taxation is avoided -- the US Revenue Code has always allowed tax credits to avoid double taxation; but, it's only for foreign taxes on foreign income -- not foreign taxes on US income subject to Thai taxes. But, because of the DTA, the Revenue Code can be trumped, to allow credits for Thai taxes on US income. The kicker here is that a Form 8833 needs to submitted with your US tax filing, explaining how the DTA overrides the Code.

 

Hey, I'm not making this sh**** up.

 

 

 

according to the DTA US citizens getting a us govt funded pension and social security CAN ONLY BE TAXED by the payiing govt unless the person receiving the pension and/or social security is also a native Thai resident but eligible for the US govt pension and social security.  Articles 20 and 21 of the DTA apply

[foreverlomsak]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

But If I haven't remitted anything (from overseas) to myself, why would they bother looking into my account?

 

 

Your original comment related to the lack of an FTT marker when funds were deposited by Wise. As the FTT marker would only be of interest to the RD and Immigration, I answered on that basis.

[ukrules]

There's plenty of room for hearsay and anecdotes, after all we should remember - this is a discussion forum, not a legal review.

[Eudaimonia]

I came across a good summary article, especially for Australians. Apologies if it has already been shared here.

 

https://www.expattaxes.com.au/update-thailand-clarifies-tax-on-foreign-income/

 

The only thing that puzzles me about this article is the mention: "There’s ambiguity over whether foreign-sourced income will attract a specific rate of tax in Thailand or whether it will be subject to Thailand’s ordinary tax rates."

 

I am not aware of any ambiguity, isn't it the same progressive rates as for other incomes? Of course that might change later, but not much time to change it for 2024 now.

[metisdead]

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[CharlieH]

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[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

There's plenty of room for hearsay and anecdotes, after all we should remember - this is a discussion forum, not a legal review.

Love this post... Thank you for reminding us that "This is Thailand" & so everything we think we know, we don't.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Mike Teavee