‘No turning back’: how the Ukraine war has profoundly changed the EU

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies in violation of our Community Standards have been removed.  

 

A post with unattributed content in violation of our Community Standards has been removed, please provide a valid link to the source(s) of information when posting.

[retarius]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If your points were valid you’d not need to resort to the personal attacks.

You neglect to tell us where you get your news.

 

Chomper I have seen your posts with shock over the past few months and you ignorance and arrogance are staggering. 

I get my news from a variety of sources and nations, including the UK, US, Japan, Thailand, Germany and other European sites, Russia, Ukraine, Singapore and China, and also from Al Jazeera and Cradle for the Middle East news. I also read specialised magazines and commentary which have supposed expert opinion, most of which is naive and not expert at all.

Having a wide variety of sources on similar events helps eliminate biases and blatant propaganda. For example, it is almost impossible to get an idea of how the Ukraine war is progressing from western only sources. It is impossible to get an idea of Ukrainian casualty figure from Ukraine news sources, or Russian casualty figures from Russian sources.

Everything you see on the TV or news media is selling you ideas to gain pour support for what the politicians want to do. When you understand that that and internalise it, you will find the world much easier to interpret. 

I say the US is the world's biggest warmonger. You say it's not because your news sources e tis CNBN or BBC. But I say, count up the numbers of war the US have started (all in the best of good faith, naturally) and the number of wars other nations have started. The US have started more wars that the rest of the world since 1945.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, retarius said:

Chomper I have seen your posts with shock over the past few months and you ignorance and arrogance are staggering. 

I get my news from a variety of sources and nations, including the UK, US, Japan, Thailand, Germany and other European sites, Russia, Ukraine, Singapore and China, and also from Al Jazeera and Cradle for the Middle East news. I also read specialised magazines and commentary which have supposed expert opinion, most of which is naive and not expert at all.

Having a wide variety of sources on similar events helps eliminate biases and blatant propaganda. For example, it is almost impossible to get an idea of how the Ukraine war is progressing from western only sources. It is impossible to get an idea of Ukrainian casualty figure from Ukraine news sources, or Russian casualty figures from Russian sources.

Everything you see on the TV or news media is selling you ideas to gain pour support for what the politicians want to do. When you understand that that and internalise it, you will find the world much easier to interpret. 

I say the US is the world's biggest warmonger. You say it's not because your news sources e tis CNBN or BBC. But I say, count up the numbers of war the US have started (all in the best of good faith, naturally) and the number of wars other nations have started. The US have started more wars that the rest of the world since 1945.

 

In the meantime your REMIX News propaganda site (the only source you have quoted) has been rumbled.

 

 

 

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, retarius said:

I was very pleased to see the results of the Slovakian election where the people voted to reject funding for Ukraine and put in some sensible leaders who promise don't to send more money to corrupt nazis. The other piece of good news of course was that some of the GOP in Congress finally had enough and said no aid for Ukraine in the funding package. The NO AID FOR UKRAINe movement is growing, and with it hopefully an end to the war and the threat of a nuclear catastrophe. Shame on the US for engineering this conflict, and shame in the Ukrainians for being so stupid as to fight to the last Ukrainian. 

"Shame on the US for engineering this conflict"

 

Apparently questioning your motives for making such a nonsensical claim violates community standards, so I'll just point out what is obvious:  Russia invaded Ukraine.  Russia "engineered" the conflict.

 

It's also worth noting the the person acting like Adolf Hitler, the ultimate nazi, is Putin.

 

 

[billd766]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. The cracks are showing already.

If the stalemate in Ukraine continues IMO the crack will become a chasm as EU governments abandon Ukraine. Seems like the warmongers may be left on their own.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/1/pro-russia-party-claims-victory-in-slovakia-election

The populist party of former Prime Minister Robert Fico that wants to stop military aid to Ukraine and is critical of the European Union and NATO has won Slovakia’s election, results showed on Sunday.

 

and

 

https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/hungary-blocks-20-billion-euro-fund-for-ukraines-armed-forces/

Hungary has blocked the EU’s attempt to create a long-term support fund for the Ukrainian military worth 20 billion euros. Budapest intends to prevent the initiative’s implementation further, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the country, Péter Szijjártó, said.

Please refrain from calling people who support the Ukraine, "warmongers". Many of us have served in the military of our own country to keep our countries free from invasion by dictators like Putin and KNOW the cost of war in lives and destruction.

 

The Ukraine did NOT invade Russia, nor did they attempt to regain the Crimea.

 

The warmongers are Putin and the Russian military who invaded the Ukraine on the flimsiest excuse, thinking that it would be a simple task.

 

The Ukraine asked for help and the US, UK and the EU responded along with NATO, supplying weapons, munitions, medical supplies and some civilian volunteers.

 

Russia responded by slaughtering innocent men women and children in the territory that they occupied in the early parts of the war that THEY started.

 

The also started sending drone out to indiscriminately kill and destroy not caring where they landed, what they hit or who they killed.

 

When the Ukrainians responded with drones striking Moscow, parts of occupied Ukraine and military targets in the Crimea, Putin called them terrorists

 

Putin is a war criminal, Zelensky is not.

 

Zelensky can go to any country and be safe. Putin met Kim Jong Un who travelled in an armoured train for his own safety.

 

The Ukraine has NEVER been a part of Russia except when Russia has occupied it as an act of war.

[Thorgal]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:56 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

• War: a massacre of people who don't know each other for the profit of people who know each other but don't massacre each other. ...(Pierre Valéry)

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

• War: a massacre of people who don't know each other for the profit of people who know each other but don't massacre each other. ...(Pierre Valéry)

Oh I don't know. Putin's doing a good job of massacring his own Russian opponents that he knows very well. 

[Thorgal]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Oh I don't know. Putin's doing a good job of massacring his own Russian opponents that he knows very well. 

Well I know. It started in 2013 before Maidan coup with neocons like Victoria (Nudelman) Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan (9/11), another US neocon legacy.

 

Toppling Tartus (Syria) and Sebastopol prior to 2013 was not a smart idea...if you understand geopolitics in the region and the forced de-unification of the EU and Russia (Nord stream 1/2).

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Thorgal said:

Well I know. It started in 2013 before Maidan coup with neocons like Victoria (Nudelman) Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan (9/11), another US neocon legacy.

 

Toppling Tartus (Syria) and Sebastopol prior to 2013 was not a smart idea...if you understand geopolitics in the region and the forced de-unification of the EU and Russia (Nord stream 1/2).

Says the poster who claimed the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia  elections were held democratically and the people decided to be part of Nova Rossia. 

 

Well do you know how many countries recognize the legitimacy of those referendums? 

 

2, North Korea and Syria...............

[transam]

12 hours ago, sirineou said:

The quote " A little learning  is a dangerous thing"  attributed to Alexander Pope has never been more true  than than this instance. 

because a little knowledge can be easily manipulated  

Propaganda is only effective when it contains part of the truth. and since  many only have part of the truth, many otherwise intelligent and well meaning people are susceptible and easily manipulated. 

It is really sad.

With the fall of the Soviet union , we had a chance to bring Russia in the fold of liberal democracy and once again we failed to capitalise.

In the future It would IMO viewed as the greatest blunder of the 21 century. 

It is Putin in person that has failed, not the Russian people, they enjoyed their mixing with the West to have a better life, now their wannabe "King" has taken them back to the cold war era, well done King Vlad..........????

[billd766]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not sure what you mean with that, but if you mean Russian expansion, in history, which western country has been invaded by Russia, since post WW2.

Here is a full list going back to the 9th century.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

 

Down towards the bottom the list carries on from 1944 to the 1960s and includes 

Korea 1959 to 1953

East German uprising in 1953

Hungarian Revolution in 1956

Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968

War of Attrition between Israel, Egypt and Russia 1969 to 1970

Eritrean War of Independence 1974 to 1991

Angolan Civil War 1975 to 1991

Ethio-Somali War 1977 to 1978 

Soviet- Afghan War 1979 to 1989

US invasion of Grenada 1983

Cold War 1967 to 1991

Georgian Civil war 1991 to 1993

South Ossetian War 1991 to 1992

War in Abkhazia 1992 to 1993

Tajikistan Civil war 1992 to 1997

First Chechen War 1994 to 1996

War of Dagestan 1999

Russo- Georgian War 2008

Second Chechen War 1999 to 2009

Insurgency in the North Caucasus 2009 to 2017

Russo-Ukrainian War 2914 to present day

Russian Military Intervention in the Syrian Civil War 2015 to the present time

Central African Republic Civil War 2018 to present day

Mali War 2021 to present day.

 

I had to look them up as there were so many but you did ask.

 

I probably missed a couple but the full account is in the link.

 

I have to laugh, as you accuse the west and people here of being warmongers.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

12 hours ago, retarius said:

I was very pleased to see the results of the Slovakian election where the people voted to reject funding for Ukraine and put in some sensible leaders who promise don't to send more money to corrupt nazis. The other piece of good news of course was that some of the GOP in Congress finally had enough and said no aid for Ukraine in the funding package. The NO AID FOR UKRAINe movement is growing, and with it hopefully an end to the war and the threat of a nuclear catastrophe. Shame on the US for engineering this conflict, and shame in the Ukrainians for being so stupid as to fight to the last Ukrainian. 

Hot off the Putin Press.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Here is a full list going back to the 9th century.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

 

Down towards the bottom the list carries on from 1944 to the 1960s and includes 

Korea 1959 to 1953

East German uprising in 1953

Hungarian Revolution in 1956

Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968

War of Attrition between Israel, Egypt and Russia 1969 to 1970

Eritrean War of Independence 1974 to 1991

Angolan Civil War 1975 to 1991

Ethio-Somali War 1977 to 1978 

Soviet- Afghan War 1979 to 1989

US invasion of Grenada 1983

Cold War 1967 to 1991

Georgian Civil war 1991 to 1993

South Ossetian War 1991 to 1992

War in Abkhazia 1992 to 1993

Tajikistan Civil war 1992 to 1997

First Chechen War 1994 to 1996

War of Dagestan 1999

Russo- Georgian War 2008

Second Chechen War 1999 to 2009

Insurgency in the North Caucasus 2009 to 2017

Russo-Ukrainian War 2914 to present day

Russian Military Intervention in the Syrian Civil War 2015 to the present time

Central African Republic Civil War 2018 to present day

Mali War 2021 to present day.

 

I had to look them up as there were so many but you did ask.

 

I probably missed a couple but the full account is in the link.

 

I have to laugh, as you accuse the west and people here of being warmongers.

 

 

 

All well and good but apart from those 26 examples you cite (yes, sad I counted them), what conflicts has Russia/ the Soviet Union been involved in since WW2????

[Thorgal]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Says the poster who claimed the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia  elections were held democratically and the people decided to be part of Nova Rossia. 

 

Well do you know how many countries recognize the legitimacy of those referendums? 

 

2, North Korea and Syria...............

The first referendum of Donbas was organized in 2014. Even Russia (Putin) was not in favor as it's not in line with the Minsk accords and the Ukrainian governing laws.

 

After the start of the Russian special military operation (2022) there was a need to re-organize the new referendum/elections to be able to work together between Donbas/Kherson/Zaporizhzhia regions and the Russian government. 

 

Schools and churches were opened again, buildings were renovated, electricity, gas and water was again available thanks to Russian intervention, except that the Ukrainian (+8 years) shelling was is not yet stopped (even constitutionally).

 

Most UN countries were against these latest referendums due to the unlawful character with respect to Ukrainians' Constitutional laws. Zelensky was asked to participate in these elections. He refused to participate in the negotiations for the local elections...

Edited October 2, 2023 by Thorgal

[tgw]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

The first referendum of Donbas was organized in 2014. Even Russia (Putin) was not in favor as it's not in line with the Minsk accords and the Ukrainian governing laws.

 

After the start of the Russian special military operation (2022) there was a need to re-organize the new referendum/elections to be able to work together between Donbas/Kherson/Zaporizhzhia regions and the Russian government. 

 

Schools and churches were opened again, buildings were renovated, electricity, gas and water was again available thanks to Russian intervention, except that the Ukrainian (+8 years) shelling was is not yet stopped (even constitutionally).

 

Most UN countries were against these latest referendums due to the unlawful character with respect to Ukrainians' Constitutional laws. Zelensky was asked to participate in these elections. He refused to participate in the negotiations for the local elections...

and another Ruzzian shill spewing Ruzzian propaganda and lies... sigh

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, Thorgal said:

Well I know. It started in 2013 before Maidan coup with neocons like Victoria (Nudelman) Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan (9/11), another US neocon legacy.

 

Toppling Tartus (Syria) and Sebastopol prior to 2013 was not a smart idea...if you understand geopolitics in the region and the forced de-unification of the EU and Russia (Nord stream 1/2).

You boast about the number of news sources you read yet you never post any links to support your claims and opinions.  That's ok when you're preaching to the converted, but it doesn't work here.

 

You like to throw out the name Nuland and suggest there is something sinister there.  There isn't.  Here is the most "sinister" thing I could find on Nuland, a discussion between her and Ambassador Pyatt in which it is clear that they would prefer that the pro-western opposition come out ahead in the protests.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

 

That's it.  If you have anything more substantial please share it.  But use credible sources, don't claim you have superior knowledge and expect us to believe you.

[candide]

4 hours ago, Thorgal said:

The first referendum of Donbas was organized in 2014. Even Russia (Putin) was not in favor as it's not in line with the Minsk accords and the Ukrainian governing laws.

 

After the start of the Russian special military operation (2022) there was a need to re-organize the new referendum/elections to be able to work together between Donbas/Kherson/Zaporizhzhia regions and the Russian government. 

 

Schools and churches were opened again, buildings were renovated, electricity, gas and water was again available thanks to Russian intervention, except that the Ukrainian (+8 years) shelling was is not yet stopped (even constitutionally).

 

Most UN countries were against these latest referendums due to the unlawful character with respect to Ukrainians' Constitutional laws. Zelensky was asked to participate in these elections. He refused to participate in the negotiations for the local elections...

I hope for you that you are aware it's Russian propaganda and you do it on purpose, rather than naively diffuse it

 

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, retarius said:

I was very pleased to see the results of the Slovakian election where the people voted to reject funding for Ukraine and put in some sensible leaders who promise don't to send more money to corrupt nazis. The other piece of good news of course was that some of the GOP in Congress finally had enough and said no aid for Ukraine in the funding package. The NO AID FOR UKRAINe movement is growing, and with it hopefully an end to the war and the threat of a nuclear catastrophe. Shame on the US for engineering this conflict, and shame in the Ukrainians for being so stupid as to fight to the last Ukrainian. 

Unfortunately they only stopped money for Ukraine being included in the spending bill in which it had no place. They didn't say that they will stop voting money for Ukraine war in a stand alone bill. After all, the military industrial complex needs all the $ it can get to keep the 1% getting richer.

 

Seems more likely that the cutoff of funds for this war will come from Europe, and once European countries have seen the light it will be hard for the US to carry on alone.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, RayC said:

All well and good but apart from those 26 examples you cite (yes, sad I counted them), what conflicts has Russia/ the Soviet Union been involved in since WW2????

Unfortunately a few eg Afghanistan, Hungary, Syria, which is why I qualified it by saying "western countries".

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

Here is a full list going back to the 9th century.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

 

Down towards the bottom the list carries on from 1944 to the 1960s and includes 

Korea 1959 to 1953

East German uprising in 1953

Hungarian Revolution in 1956

Invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968

War of Attrition between Israel, Egypt and Russia 1969 to 1970

Eritrean War of Independence 1974 to 1991

Angolan Civil War 1975 to 1991

Ethio-Somali War 1977 to 1978 

Soviet- Afghan War 1979 to 1989

US invasion of Grenada 1983

Cold War 1967 to 1991

Georgian Civil war 1991 to 1993

South Ossetian War 1991 to 1992

War in Abkhazia 1992 to 1993

Tajikistan Civil war 1992 to 1997

First Chechen War 1994 to 1996

War of Dagestan 1999

Russo- Georgian War 2008

Second Chechen War 1999 to 2009

Insurgency in the North Caucasus 2009 to 2017

Russo-Ukrainian War 2914 to present day

Russian Military Intervention in the Syrian Civil War 2015 to the present time

Central African Republic Civil War 2018 to present day

Mali War 2021 to present day.

 

I had to look them up as there were so many but you did ask.

 

I probably missed a couple but the full account is in the link.

 

I have to laugh, as you accuse the west and people here of being warmongers.

 

 

 

Did you miss where I asked SPECIFICALLY about WESTERN countries? Instead you posted a list that had ZERO to do with my question which you actually posted, but apparently didn't read.

 

As for Korea, as no Russian troops were involved, to my knowledge, they were only doing the same thing as America is doing in Ukraine, and supplying military aid. Is it different when it's not America?

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, Thorgal said:

• War: a massacre of people who don't know each other for the profit of people who know each other but don't massacre each other. ...(Pierre Valéry)

Yes, the American 1% has done very nicely from the continuous stream of conflicts the US has been involved in since WW2.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Please refrain from calling people who support the Ukraine, "warmongers". Many of us have served in the military of our own country to keep our countries free from invasion by dictators like Putin and KNOW the cost of war in lives and destruction.

I refer to the people in governments that vote for sending war material to the Ukraine so Ukrainian's can die to enrich the 1% that make the weapons, while remaining safely miles and miles behind the lines.

 

I myself only just missed out on participating in America's war in a far off Asian country, so I am not a stay at home safely person either. It ended for us when I was about to be posted there.

[RayC]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Unfortunately a few eg Afghanistan, Hungary, Syria, which is why I qualified it by saying "western countries".

 

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did you miss where I asked SPECIFICALLY about WESTERN countries? Instead you posted a list that had ZERO to do with my question which you actually posted, but apparently didn't read.

 

As for Korea, as no Russian troops were involved, to my knowledge, they were only doing the same thing as America is doing in Ukraine, and supplying military aid. Is it different when it's not America?

So you don't consider 1940/50's Warsaw Pact countries such as Czechoslovakia, Germany, Hungary, Poland to have been Western countries?

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, retarius said:

Chomper I have seen your posts with shock over the past few months and you ignorance and arrogance are staggering. 

I get my news from a variety of sources and nations, including the UK, US, Japan, Thailand, Germany and other European sites, Russia, Ukraine, Singapore and China, and also from Al Jazeera and Cradle for the Middle East news. I also read specialised magazines and commentary which have supposed expert opinion, most of which is naive and not expert at all.

Having a wide variety of sources on similar events helps eliminate biases and blatant propaganda. For example, it is almost impossible to get an idea of how the Ukraine war is progressing from western only sources. It is impossible to get an idea of Ukrainian casualty figure from Ukraine news sources, or Russian casualty figures from Russian sources.

Everything you see on the TV or news media is selling you ideas to gain pour support for what the politicians want to do. When you understand that that and internalise it, you will find the world much easier to interpret. 

I say the US is the world's biggest warmonger. You say it's not because your news sources e tis CNBN or BBC. But I say, count up the numbers of war the US have started (all in the best of good faith, naturally) and the number of wars other nations have started. The US have started more wars that the rest of the world since 1945.

 

The poster you quoted has a cheek complaining about personal attacks, given I put him on ignore for just such activity.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, RayC said:

 

So you don't consider 1940/50's Warsaw Pact countries such as Czechoslovakia, Germany, Hungary, Poland to have been Western countries?

No. They were in the Soviet sphere ( given to them by Churchill and Roosevelt at the Yalta conference ) post WW2.

I'd have thought it was obvious I was referring to non soviet countries, but apparently not.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, RayC said:

Maybe you don't equate the Soviet Union with Russia and/or consider former Warsaw Pact countries such as Czech (o)slovakia, (East) Germany, Hungary, Poland to be "western countries", in which case my following paragraph is null and void.

 

You seem to have forgotten about the whole Cold War era; in particular, the Soviet Union's expansion into Central Europe and the presence of Soviet tanks in Budapest and Prague after demonstrations against the Soviet-backed regimes in Hungary and Czechoslovakia during the '50s and '60s. 

 

What exactly is it about Soviet/ Russian expansionism and domination that you find so appealing?

I have forgotten nothing including how Churchill and Roosevelt gave the Soviets those European countries at Yalta.

[Tug]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I refer to the people in governments that vote for sending war material to the Ukraine so Ukrainian's can die to enrich the 1% that make the weapons, while remaining safely miles and miles behind the lines.

 

I myself only just missed out on participating in America's war in a far off Asian country, so I am not a stay at home safely person either. It ended for us when I was about to be posted there.

Soo a country being invaded looted families being murdered wives and daughters being raped asks the free world to help it defend itself translates in your mind to the weapons industry and their shareholders making money hummm………how do you feel about the country that’s doing the invading raping and looting hummm………seems to me you are ok with that,am I mistaken?

[Tug]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have forgotten nothing including how Churchill and Roosevelt gave the Soviets those European countries at Yalta.

Ahh they didn’t have much choice unless they turned an ally into an enemy those countries didn’t have a choice in the matter as I’m sure you know

[RayC]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No. They were in the Soviet sphere ( given to them by Churchill and Roosevelt at the Yalta conference ) post WW2.

I'd have thought it was obvious I was referring to non soviet countries, but apparently not.

 

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have forgotten nothing including how Churchill and Roosevelt gave the Soviets those European countries at Yalta.

That is complete and utter nonsense and a rewriting of history.

 

The Yalta Conference agreed that there should be free elections in the former Axis states and in Poland. A pledge that Stalin obviously did not honour.

 

It is equally ridiculous to imply, as you seem to do, that Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland were Soviet states at the end of WW2 in 1945.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

That is complete and utter nonsense and a rewriting of history.

 

The Yalta Conference agreed that there should be free elections in the former Axis states and in Poland. A pledge that Stalin obviously did not honour.

 

It is equally ridiculous to imply, as you seem to do, that Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland were Soviet states at the end of WW2 in 1945.

States or not, they were in the Soviet sphere of influence, and controlled by Russian aligned governments.

Were Churchill and Roosevelt fooled by Stalin, or did they abandon those countries? I'm going for the latter. The Uk has a history of abandoning countries when it suits them, eg Palestine.

 

So perhaps you can inform us as to which western countries not in the Soviet sphere of influence were invaded by Russia post WW2.

Edited October 2, 2023 by thaibeachlovers