ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

This religious group don't like their sacred religion being hi-jacked by Zionists.

 

Big march by the orthodoxies in London last Saturday.

 

A few posts back you claim not to get what it's about, now you seem fully acquainted with it.

Just saying.

[Nick Carter icp]

16 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Nothing to do with this thread Nick lad. Talking generally across the western world.

 

Is not criticism of Israel termed antisemitic, in some charter or other? Think the UK Labour party adopted it.

 

   The problem seems to be that when older people were younger, anti Semitism was quite normal, as was racism in general .

  Racism  and Anti Semitism were widespread and regarded as being normal , now that the world has progressed and moved on and Racism and Anti Semitism is regarded as being wrong and inappropriate  and the older guys just cannot change their ways , thats why quite a lot of older guys keep making racist and anti sematic comments and cannot understand why people are critical of their comments . 

   

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I accept that there seems to be no middle ground in the Middle East. One must take one side or the other unequivocally.

 

I am unable to do that. That leaves me no place in this ever-growing thread. The terror attack on 7 Oct was heinous. Were I a survivor, I'd be apoplectic. I understand that.

 

If it is possible to step back, I recall reading of a sign a US military commander had on his office in Iraq. "In our actions killing enemies today, how many more did we create?"

 

Maybe it's still too soon to have that sort of introspection.

 

Another concern is the growing anti-Jewish sentiment in the world, even in the US and even on university campuses. This is revolting.

 

Yes, this, too, is too soon, but humor sometimes can offer a temporary refuge. Bill Maher---whose mother was Jewish---had a joke in his monologue tonight that brings this anti-Jewish threat home. Maher noted that FBI Director Christopher Wray said that anti-Jewish threats are at an all time high in the US. "the threat level having moved up from Mel Gibson to Kanye".

 

Humor is often better getting the point across to those who might not be listening, and this growing anti-Jewish hate must be addressed, lest history repeat.

 

Finally, and a bit off topic. Maher's New Rules was rather interesting this morning.

 

I agree that for many it's a black and white thing. There's also a whole lot of rhetoric, often issued by politicians and leaders, which sets the lines of 'debate' or frames relevant notions. People then repeat those snippets, slogans, truism giving them added force. A whole lot of that on these topics.

 

It's possible to step back and analyze any aspect of this conflict. The willingness to do so with regard to a 'supported' side, less so. For example, your own commentary, relatively balanced as it may be, centers of certain things, while almost completely passing over others. And that's fine, this isn't a whole encompassing 'discussion', and there's no requirement to cover all issues, or to feel the same (or as strongly) about them.

 

About the anti-Israel, antisemitic issues in USA campuses - I was under the impression things were dire. Recently talked to a friend at Harvard and was surprised that he said in reality it nowhere as prevalent or a thing as headlines suggest. Maybe more so  in certain faculties, colleges, and universities. i found this difficult to settle with what I read, then recalled how news coverage of the war itself is sometimes like that as well. Not saying it ain't there or a non-issue, just maybe not exactly as advertised.

[Neeranam]

26 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Humor is often better getting the point across to those who might not be listening, and this growing anti-Jewish hate must be addressed, lest history repeat.

Do you think the ant-Jewish hate is forming because of Israel's Apartheid and discrimination of Arabs, or an other reason?

[Morch]

Just now, Neeranam said:

Do you think the ant-Jewish hate is forming because of Israel's Apartheid and discrimination of Arabs, or an other reason?

 

When did you stop beating your wife?

[transam]

Just now, Neeranam said:

Do you think the ant-Jewish hate is forming because of Israel's Apartheid and discrimination of Arabs, or an other reason?

Oh, no..........😬

[Morch]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

 

I do not support .HAMAS. HAMAS rule by the gun, so far as I know the majority of the Gaza population do not support HAMAS

 

Israel has ceased supply of energy to Gaza, which IMO is 'collective punishment - War Crime. Your comments regards the power station are irrelevant.

 

As far as I understand, if it can be demonstrated that the supply of aid/water/power/whatever is directly abused by the enemy it bears on the legal obligations to supply them, and/or overrides the 'collective punishment' label. There are other things at play to - proportionality, the availability of other sources and so on. Same thing when attacking hospitals, schools, denying freedom of movement. There are provisions for most situation.

 

In this case, despite the sky-is-falling claims, hospitals did not go without electricity, for example. As was further detailed, there's apparently enough fuel in the Gaza Strip to run for quite a bit - with Hamas illegally holding on much of that, and illegally tapping into sources (say hospital supplies).

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

As far as I understand, if it can be demonstrated that the supply of aid/water/power/whatever is directly abused by the enemy it bears on the legal obligations to supply them, and/or overrides the 'collective punishment' label. There are other things at play to - proportionality, the availability of other sources and so on. Same thing when attacking hospitals, schools, denying freedom of movement. There are provisions for most situation.

 

In this case, despite the sky-is-falling claims, hospitals did not go without electricity, for example. As was further detailed, there's apparently enough fuel in the Gaza Strip to run for quite a bit - with Hamas illegally holding on much of that, and illegally tapping into sources (say hospital supplies).

Strange how some posters do not read or watch television to listen to credible source facts as to what is actually going on instead of blaming Israel for everything, with hardly a mention of the barbaric murderers of kids they seem to support.  🤨

[Morch]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Strange how some posters do not read or watch television to listen to credible source facts as to what is actually going on instead of blaming Israel for everything, with hardly a mention of the barbaric murderers of kids they seem to support.  🤨

 

The current visuals from Gaza overtake previous ones of Hamas atrocities. That's expected. The new images are hard to take as well, and are easier to understand and relate to. Familiar sights from conflicts all over the world. Add commentary going on about same issues, often in a rather shallow way, toss in it's emotionally easier to identify with underdog, and that goes toward explaining much of the sentiments on display.

 

I'm not saying that things in Gaza aren't awful. They are.

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think the ant-Jewish hate is forming because of Israel's Apartheid and discrimination of Arabs, or an other reason?

 

Antisemitism (etymologic) per definition is racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on all Semitic populations that speak Semitic languages.

 

Judeophobia is specifically racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on Jewish population.

 

The term "antisemitism" has been "hijacked" or has been decontextualized wrongly through history as racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on Jewish population only.

The term "antisemitism" has even been further used to denominate all critics against "Israel", "Zionism" or any critics specific related to "Jewishness".

 

Best example I can give you in this topic is the "octopus-case" from Greta Thunberg. The magnifying effect and decontextualization has been over exploited in this case, even if there's no single sign or proof of genuine  "Judeophobia".

 

The term "antisemitism" is nowadays more used due to the situation in the Middle East (pogroms, apartheid, bombing, etc...) as an offensive and defensive trigger or smokescreen on social media platforms.  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Thorgal

[Thorgal]

AFP (Agence France Press) office in Gaza has been bombed by IDF, together with the buildings of the French Institute (inter-cultural exchange).

Macron asks for explanation...

We're getting closer to possible Palestinian depopulations from Gaza to Sinai desert.

 

https://www.afp.com/en/agency/press-releases-newsletter/afp-condemns-strike-its-gaza-bureau

 

https://www.france24.com/fr/moyen-orient/20231103-🔴-en-direct-israël-renvoie-les-travailleurs-gazaouis-et-coupe-tout-contact-avec-le-territoire

 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

AFP (Agence France Press) office in Gaza has been bombed by IDF, together with the buildings of the French Institute (inter-cultural exchange).

Macron asks for explanation...

We're getting closer to possible Palestinian depopulations from Gaza to Sinai desert.

 

https://www.afp.com/en/agency/press-releases-newsletter/afp-condemns-strike-its-gaza-bureau

 

https://www.france24.com/fr/moyen-orient/20231103-🔴-en-direct-israël-renvoie-les-travailleurs-gazaouis-et-coupe-tout-contact-avec-le-territoire

 

 

 

Projectile damages AFP’s Gaza bureau; IDF: Strike nearby may have caused debris

https://www.timesofisrael.com/projectile-hits-french-news-agencys-gaza-bureau-causes-damage-idf-says-not-involved/

Edited November 4, 2023 by Morch

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

AFP (Agence France Press) office in Gaza has been bombed by IDF, together with the buildings of the French Institute (inter-cultural exchange).

Macron asks for explanation...

We're getting closer to possible Palestinian depopulations from Gaza to Sinai desert.

 

https://www.afp.com/en/agency/press-releases-newsletter/afp-condemns-strike-its-gaza-bureau

 

https://www.france24.com/fr/moyen-orient/20231103-🔴-en-direct-israël-renvoie-les-travailleurs-gazaouis-et-coupe-tout-contact-avec-le-territoire

 

Its a war zone, they had evacuated all staff on the 13th Oct, the office was empty.

[placeholder]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:35 PM, Morch said:

 

Allegation is not evidence. Consult the dictionary, or your imaginary rabbi friend.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 11:35 PM, Morch said:

 

Allegation is not evidence. Consult the dictionary, or your imaginary rabbi friend.

"The body of evidence reviewed by Amnesty International indicates that Israel has used white phosphorus smoke artillery shells during an attack on the southern border town of Dhayra, a populated civilian area. Amnesty International’s Crisis Evidence Lab verified videos and photos showing the use of white phosphorous smoke artillery shells in Dhayra on 16 October. Amnesty International researchers interviewed the Mayor of Dhayra, a resident of Dhayra, a first responder who facilitated the transfer of injured civilians to a nearby hospital and an emergency doctor working in the hospital which received the injured civilians."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/#:~:text=The Israeli army fired artillery,2023%2C Amnesty International said today.

[transam]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

"The body of evidence reviewed by Amnesty International indicates that Israel has used white phosphorus smoke artillery shells during an attack on the southern border town of Dhayra, a populated civilian area. Amnesty International’s Crisis Evidence Lab verified videos and photos showing the use of white phosphorous smoke artillery shells in Dhayra on 16 October. Amnesty International researchers interviewed the Mayor of Dhayra, a resident of Dhayra, a first responder who facilitated the transfer of injured civilians to a nearby hospital and an emergency doctor working in the hospital which received the injured civilians."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/#:~:text=The Israeli army fired artillery,2023%2C Amnesty International said today.

Another Hamas supporter, welcome aboard, there are a couple from your club on this thread....

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The current visuals from Gaza overtake previous ones of Hamas atrocities. That's expected. The new images are hard to take as well, and are easier to understand and relate to. Familiar sights from conflicts all over the world. Add commentary going on about same issues, often in a rather shallow way, toss in it's emotionally easier to identify with underdog, and that goes toward explaining much of the sentiments on display.

 

I'm not saying that things in Gaza aren't awful. They are.

Hamas clearly meant to bait Israel into a fierce reaction with the Gazan civilian deaths (human shields) used for propaganda purposes being a key part of that plan. Israel will always remember October 7 -- most of the world has already forgetten it not to mention the denialist narratives. It turns out Hamas is not a trivial enemy for Israel. It's anything but one sided now.  Hamas is winning the propaganda war (with a side effect of global antisemitism surging to historically high levels) and their terror tunnels are going to be incredibly difficult and costly for Israel to deal with. Enemies of Israel of course will rejoice. However for those looking for  peace and justice should not rejoice. Hamas is not for peace and justice. They are for crushing Israel out of existence, killing all Jews, and creating a regional extremist Islamist caliphate. Something the "progressive" westerners and Queers for Palestine chanting the genocidal River to the Sea might really love , ha ha. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Jingthing

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Another Hamas supporter, welcome aboard, there are a couple from your club on this thread....

Because criticism of Israel = support of Hamas?

 

[Thorgal]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its a war zone, they had evacuated all staff on the 13th Oct, the office was empty.

 

Wrong :

https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/protection-journalists

 

Quote from source :

"Protection of media facilities as civilian objects

Radio and television facilities are civilian objects and as such enjoy general protection. The prohibition on attacking civilian objects has been firmly established in international humanitarian law since the beginning of the twentieth century and was reaffirmed in 1977 Protocol I and in the Statute of the International Criminal Court."

 

I've just pointed out that this protection of press building and maybe press personnel has not been respected.

 

France requested explanations and has the right to receive for me them if these building have been used by the Palestinians for military purposes. No personal problem for me if Israel wants to continue or extend its PR disaster outside the region to the EU.

As usual, you're just guessing without backup. Even the French authorities have no feedback but you're able to "produce" a conclusion...

 

Quote from source :

 

"Loss of protection for civilian objects

It clearly follows from the above-mentioned instruments of international humanitarian law that the immunity enjoyed by civilian objects and protected objects is not absolute and that such immunity is lost if these objects are used for hostile purposes. Civilian objects (ships, aircraft, vehicles and buildings) that contain military personnel, equipment or supplies or that in any way make a major contribution to the war effort, incompatible with their status, constitute legitimate targets. [...] For example, if the facilities of the RTS building in Belgrade were really being used as radio relay stations and transmitters by the military and special police forces of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the review committee set up by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was right in concluding that they constituted legitimate military targets for NATO."

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

Because criticism of Israel = support of Hamas?

 

In my book, yes, you carry on digging, it's what you do.........😉

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Hamas clearly meant to bait Israel into a fierce reaction and their civilian deaths used for propaganda purposes are a big part of that plan. It turns out Hamas is not a trivial enemy for Israel,. They're winning the propaganda war and their terror tunnels are going to be incredibly difficult and costly for Israel to deal with. Enemies of Israel of course will rejoice  of course. 

This was predictable and predicted. Going forward I think it will undermine European support for Israel's Gaza campaign.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

Wrong :

https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/protection-journalists

 

Quote from source :

"Protection of media facilities as civilian objects

Radio and television facilities are civilian objects and as such enjoy general protection. The prohibition on attacking civilian objects has been firmly established in international humanitarian law since the beginning of the twentieth century and was reaffirmed in 1977 Protocol I and in the Statute of the International Criminal Court."

 

I've just pointed out that this protection of press building and maybe press personnel has not been respected.

 

France requested explanations and has the right to receive for me them if these building have been used by the Palestinians for military purposes. No personal problem for me if Israel wants to continue or extend its PR disaster outside the region to the EU.

As usual, you're just guessing without backup. Even the French authorities have no feedback but you're able to "produce" a conclusion...

 

Quote from source :

 

"Loss of protection for civilian objects

It clearly follows from the above-mentioned instruments of international humanitarian law that the immunity enjoyed by civilian objects and protected objects is not absolute and that such immunity is lost if these objects are used for hostile purposes. Civilian objects (ships, aircraft, vehicles and buildings) that contain military personnel, equipment or supplies or that in any way make a major contribution to the war effort, incompatible with their status, constitute legitimate targets. [...] For example, if the facilities of the RTS building in Belgrade were really being used as radio relay stations and transmitters by the military and special police forces of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the review committee set up by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was right in concluding that they constituted legitimate military targets for NATO."

 

Right:

 

"None of AFP's eight staff usually based in Gaza City were in the bureau at the moment of the strike. The team was evacuated to southern Gaza on October 13"

https://www.afp.com/en/agency/press-releases-newsletter/afp-condemns-strike-its-gaza-bureau

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, transam said:

In my book, yes, you carry on digging, it's what you do.........😉

And engaging with facts is what you don't do.

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

This was predictable and predicted. Going forward I think it will undermine European support for Israel's Gaza campaign.

You would. fits your agenda........

[Thorgal]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

Keep digging.....😉

Hows your Hamas sign-up going.....?    

 

I'm waiting for the confirmation of Israeli authorities to confirm that these buildings have been used for military purposes.

 

Hamas sign-up ? I don't know what you mean. 

[placeholder]

Just now, transam said:

You would. fits your agenda........

More mind-reading from you.

[transam]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

And engaging with facts is what you don't do.

I am engaging you, that is a fact, you get back to supporting the terrorists side....😒

[Thorgal]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Projectile damages AFP’s Gaza bureau; IDF: Strike nearby may have caused debris

https://www.timesofisrael.com/projectile-hits-french-news-agencys-gaza-bureau-causes-damage-idf-says-not-involved/

 

Has been answered to BKK Brian. Speculate without proof (as usual) as much as you want in the meanwhile...

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

Antisemitism (etymologic) per definition is racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on all Semitic populations that speak Semitic languages.

 

Judeophobia is specifically racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on Jewish population.

 

The term "antisemitism" has been "hijacked" or has been decontextualized wrongly through history as racism and all discriminatory behavior applicable on Jewish population only.

The term "antisemitism" has even been further used to denominate all critics against "Israel", "Zionism" or any critics specific related to "Jewishness".

 

Best example I can give you in this topic is the "octopus-case" from Greta Thunberg. The magnifying effect and decontextualization has been over exploited in this case, even if there's no single sign or proof of genuine  "Judeophobia".

 

The term "antisemitism" is nowadays more used due to the situation in the Middle East (pogroms, apartheid, bombing, etc...) as an offensive and defensive trigger or smokescreen on social media platforms.  

 

 

 

 

Thanks, well explained.

 

What is the best way to reply to false accusations of racism?

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Thorgal said:

 

Has been answered to BKK Brian. Speculate without proof (as usual) as much as you want in the meanwhile...

You answered nothing but deflection from the truth

[Morch]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

"The body of evidence reviewed by Amnesty International indicates that Israel has used white phosphorus smoke artillery shells during an attack on the southern border town of Dhayra, a populated civilian area. Amnesty International’s Crisis Evidence Lab verified videos and photos showing the use of white phosphorous smoke artillery shells in Dhayra on 16 October. Amnesty International researchers interviewed the Mayor of Dhayra, a resident of Dhayra, a first responder who facilitated the transfer of injured civilians to a nearby hospital and an emergency doctor working in the hospital which received the injured civilians."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/#:~:text=The Israeli army fired artillery,2023%2C Amnesty International said today.

 

Last  I checked, Amnesty was not the arbiter of whether war crimes were committed.

 

Also, note that nowhere did I claim no war crimes were committed by Israel - actually posted that there probably are/were such instances.

 

I differentiate between claims of war crimes, actions that seem to be war crimes and legally confirmed/agreed upon/what-have-you cases of such.