ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Morch]

2 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Canary in the coal mine.

 

Israel is heading down a very dark path, the succession of increasingly extremist right wing governments, led by a corrupt politician hell bent on maintaining power, is going to end very badly.

 

Who leads the Palestinians? Men of worth? Not hell bent on maintaining power? Not corrupt?

Hamas is an Islamic movement, commanding about half of the Palestinian popular support.

What does that bode for the Palestinians?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

I don't know any Israeli's.

I don't like Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands.

I believe Israel has a right to exist, but that that existence must be within defined borders somewhat similar to the 1967 green line.

I also believe that the rising right wing fundamentalist extremism within Israel is a growing concern that will cause a great deal of harm to Palestinians and Israeli's

What I don't like is the unquestioning support of Western powers for Israel's illegal occupation as it is the only thing that is preventing peace in the Middle East.

It's hardly the 'only thing that is preventing peace in the Middle East' other than in your disingenuous fantasies.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

And most Israelis don't think Palestine has a right to exist.

No border will be acceptable to either side but a border must be enforced.

When children are quarrelling - an adult needs to step in.

The US could make it a reality but their politicians haven't the courage.

There are more Israelis that support Palestinians' right to exist, and to a country of their own, then there are Palestinian feeling the same toward Israel. Palestinians often display mass gathering of support and celebration when there are Israeli casualties of Palestinian terrorist attacks (the recent one had the same effect). Sure, there are Israelis doing the same, but that's nowhere a mainstream thing.

[Morch]

@MrMojoRisin

 

Double lazy: again posting picture with quotes of others, instead of your own words. And while at it posting (knowingly or otherwise) an edited version of the original.

[Morch]

42 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And many of those people were not Israeli or Jewish.

 

Hamas attacked whatever and whoever were unfortunate to be in range of their randomly aimed rockets and let out of control forces.

 

 

To add to that, at least on the Kibbutzim attacked, most residents usually vote center-left. If one wished to drive another nail in the coffin of the pro-peace camp in Israel....way to go.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Can you suggest a locale both away from populated areas and secure from Israeli attack?

With around 2 million Palestinians^[12] on some 365 square kilometers, Gaza, if considered a top-level political unit, ranks as the 3rd most densely populated in the world.^[13][14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

 

I have answered this numerous time on past topics. Perhaps even in reply to you. Open Google maps instead of reading figures out of wikipedia. It's not like the whole of the Gaza Strip is a concrete jungle. There are fields, orchards, open areas and so on. Granted it's crowded, but it's not like there are no options. Where do you think Hamas trained for this attack? Where do you think it conduct rocket experiments?

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

There are more Israelis that support Palestinians' right to exist, and to a country of their own, then there are Palestinian feeling the same toward Israel. Palestinians often display mass gathering of support and celebration when there are Israeli casualties of Palestinian terrorist attacks (the recent one had the same effect). Sure, there are Israelis doing the same, but that's nowhere a mainstream thing.

You sure about that?

"The poll showed support at an all-time low for the two-state solution: 20% among Israeli Jews aged 18-34 and around 30% for Palestinians in the same age group. The survey also found that, for the first time, support in Israel for a nondemocratic regime — unequal rights between Israelis and Palestinians — is stronger than that for a two-state solution.

According to the poll, a majority on each side rejects the other‘s historical connection to the land and believes that violence is the only way to resolve the conflict."

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-02-13/two-state-solution-for-israel-palestine-hopes-dashed-alternatives

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

I have answered this numerous time on past topics. Perhaps even in reply to you. Open Google maps instead of reading figures out of wikipedia. It's not like the whole of the Gaza Strip is a concrete jungle. There are fields, orchards, open areas and so on. Granted it's crowded, but it's not like there are no options. Where do you think Hamas trained for this attack? Where do you think it conduct rocket experiments?

In fact the Israelis observed Hamas training for those attacks. The just misconstrued what that training signified. And it also observes their rocket tests. Not a lot of hills and such with caves to take cover in. Unlike Hezbollah's situation.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

Whatever grievances the Palestinian people have, the barbaric acts that the terrorist organisation, Hamas, has carried out in their name, will prove to be one of the most erroneous judgements of modern history.

 

Slaughtering 250+ kids dancing at a music festival is something they will never, ever, come back from.

 

Israel now has the weight of every civilised human being on the planet behind them, and Hamas has just mandated them to wade into Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations ….

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You sure about that?

"The poll showed support at an all-time low for the two-state solution: 20% among Israeli Jews aged 18-34 and around 30% for Palestinians in the same age group. The survey also found that, for the first time, support in Israel for a nondemocratic regime — unequal rights between Israelis and Palestinians — is stronger than that for a two-state solution.

According to the poll, a majority on each side rejects the other‘s historical connection to the land and believes that violence is the only way to resolve the conflict."

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-02-13/two-state-solution-for-israel-palestine-hopes-dashed-alternatives

 

I'm not sure what is the point of focusing on the 18-34 bracket, or how the total figures go, so hard to comment. Polls are ok, but recall that these polls are supposed to be anonymous. There is public pro-peace movement, parties strongly advocating it, speakers who decree their own sides wrongs and the other side's rights among the Palestinians.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Whatever grievances the Palestinian people have, the barbaric acts that the terrorist organisation, Hamas, has carried out in their name, will prove to be one of the most erroneous judgements of modern history.

 

Slaughtering 250+ kids dancing at a music festival is something they will never, ever, come back from.

 

Israel now has the weight of every civilised human being on the planet behind them, and Hamas has just mandated them to wade into Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations ….

Says the spokesperson for all civilized human beings.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In fact the Israelis observed Hamas training for those attacks. The just misconstrued what that training signified. And it also observes their rocket tests. Not a lot of hills and such with caves to take cover in. Unlike Hezbollah's situation.

Hamas seems to know it's way toward making underground installations and facilities when it so chooses. Recall all them attack tunnels into Israel?

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Whatever grievances the Palestinian people have, the barbaric acts that the terrorist organisation, Hamas, has carried out in their name, will prove to be one of the most erroneous judgements of modern history.

 

Slaughtering 250+ kids dancing at a music festival is something they will never, ever, come back from.

 

Israel now has the weight of every civilised human being on the planet behind them, and Hamas has just mandated them to wade into Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations ….

Are we going on a crusade?! Let me get my armor and sword.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Says the spokesperson for all civilized human beings.

But obviously not for an exception like yourself

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not sure what is the point of focusing on the 18-34 bracket, or how the total figures go, so hard to comment. Polls are ok, but recall that these polls are supposed to be anonymous. There is public pro-peace movement, parties strongly advocating it, speakers who decree their own sides wrongs and the other side's rights among the Palestinians.

Here's a more complete poll. It doesn't support your claim either.

https://archive.ph/XGyfO

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

But obviously not for an exception like yourself

Thanks for the designation, self-appointed one. who claims that every civilized human being will now support an Israeli incursion into "Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations." It is to laugh.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

Hamas seems to know it's way toward making underground installations and facilities when it so chooses. Recall all them attack tunnels into Israel?

Them underground installations and facilities located in the uninhabited areas, such as they are, of Gaza? By the way have you googled a satellite view of Gaza? Those gray areas are the densely inhabited areas. Not a lot left over.

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Them underground installations and facilities located in the uninhabited areas, such as they are, of Gaza? By the way have you googled a satellite view of Gaza? Those gray areas are the densely inhabited areas. Not a lot left over.

Perhaps Hamas leadership should have considered that before their surprise attack.

[3NUMBAS]

ghaza being reduced to rubble in return, no food no water no leccy they can all starve to death in return .everywhere is being blitzed to rubble.SNAFU for the muslims

[Eloquent pilgrim]

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for the designation, self-appointed one. who claims that every civilized human being will now support an Israeli incursion into "Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations." It is to laugh.

You really need to brush up on you reading skills. I did not say that every civilised human being would support an incursion into Gaza unrestricted by any moral obligations. I said that Hamas has just mandated them to do so.

 

The fact that most civilised human beings would view the slaughter carried out by Hamas in the name of the Palestinian people as barbaric, does not, I admit, accommodate your contrary opinion.

[Danderman123]

It looks like individuals and small militia units of Hezbollah are taking random shots across the border.

 

Nothing to worry about so far.

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Here's a more complete poll. It doesn't support your claim either.

https://archive.ph/XGyfO

When I reference Israelis, I include Israeli Arabs, as they Israeli voters. That quite a chunk to take out of the equation, or calculate it separately. And still, for all them figures, it's a poll. A Palestinian publicly advocating strong pro-peace, or accepting Israeli point of views, risks his life. Israelis are (still) free to do that. I'm not sure how replying to a pole compares with actually engaging in such activity.

 

With regard to the decline in support for this among Jewish Israelis, we've been over the issue of the shift right, and of religious elements gaining strength quite a few times.

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Them underground installations and facilities located in the uninhabited areas, such as they are, of Gaza? By the way have you googled a satellite view of Gaza? Those gray areas are the densely inhabited areas. Not a lot left over.

Not sure what your first question was. As for the second, check again, and you'll see there are enough places not directly in the middle of residential areas. Or not under hospitals. Or not under schools. And regardless, I'll refer you to another comment - no real investment in public shelters. Public safety is not priority - and each civilian death can be further used for propaganda purposes. And for bolstering the ranks with angry relatives.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

Not sure what your first question was. As for the second, check again, and you'll see there are enough places not directly in the middle of residential areas. Or not under hospitals. Or not under schools. And regardless, I'll refer you to another comment - no real investment in public shelters. Public safety is not priority - and each civilian death can be further used for propaganda purposes. And for bolstering the ranks with angry relatives.

Really? Looks to me like that would make it a lot easier for Israeli surveillance.

[Morch]

Mortars fired from Lebanon, infiltrators killed as 6 Israelis injured in gunfight

https://www.timesofisrael.com/mortars-fired-from-lebanon-infiltrators-killed-as-6-israelis-hurt-in-gunfight/

 

This is Islamic Jihad, the smaller but more militant Palestinian organization in Gaza. Both it and the Hamas got ties and some presence in Lebanon. The IJ is more closely tied to Iran than the Hamas. Hezbollah might not have participated, but certainly knew and approved. Also a wake up call for those still dreaming about international UN forces etc...

[Morch]

@placeholder

 

Really? You figured that all by yourself? Well done.

Of course there's a tradeoff. Guess Gazan lives aren't that valuable for them, all things considered.

[placeholder]

 

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

@placeholder

 

Really? You figured that all by yourself? Well done.

Of course there's a tradeoff. Guess Gazan lives aren't that valuable for them, all things considered.

Where did I ever assert that Noncombatant lives are all that valuable to them?

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

@placeholder

 

Really? You figured that all by yourself? Well done.

Of course there's a tradeoff. Guess Gazan lives aren't that valuable for them, all things considered.

It's something you apparently hadn't figured out? Unless of course you had and are now acknowledging it.

[Morch]

Just now, placeholder said:

 

Where did I ever assert that Noncombatant lives are all that valuable to them?

So what is your point? That they have no choice? No options where to place their facilities, bunkers, launchers, depots and and so on?

 

They obviously do. They don't like the tradeoff. They put them right smack in the middle of residential areas.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's something you apparently hadn't figured out? Unless of course you had and are now acknowledging it.

No, that was pretty much the point.

Again, not the first time this came up.