Don't cut off the hands that feeds you

[RafPinto]

By now, everyone knows about the proposed taxes on "tax residents".
From "aliens" to "tax residents".

I am in touch with some friends who are/were considering to move to Thailand.

Friend one:

He sold his business a few months ago and is planning to move with his wife and 13 year old son to Thailand.
All taxes paid and doesn't owe anything.

He is in his early 50's.
He was very far ahead in his planning to move to BKK beginning of 2024.

 

He was in advanced talks to buy a nice condo in the Thong Lor area.

Price: 22,000.000 Baht

Furniture:

Probably another 2-3 Million Baht

Intended to buy a new Mercedes:

Price: 4,500.000 Baht

 

School fee for son:

Price: Around 750,000Baht a year plus extras

 

Private Health Insurance for the 3:

Around 120k a year

 

They love to dine out and travel.

 

So let's say: 28,500.000 baht straight spending on condo, furniture and car.
750k school

Average monthly spending including dining out and trips inside Thailand/ 

First year of staying in Thailand: 100kx12= 1,2 Million Baht.

120k health insurance

 

That's almost 31 Million Baht which would be spend in year one

He was applying to get a non-immi O_A

The money he would use to buy all things mentioned above come from his savings, accumulated in the years before.
No money from the  sale of his business would be used.

 

 

As he reads about the new tax, he is inquiring about the MM2H visa and probably move to Malaysia.

He doesn't like to mess around and wants to plan his futures around facts.

 

Another friend , already living in Thailand was considering to buy land around HuaHin (in his wife's name/Thai) and build a house. Quotes around 18-20 Million baht.
He also abandoned this idea and continues to rent instead.

 

Next person I know put a deposit down on a brand new BMW electric SUV: Price: Around 6 Million Baht.
Delivery early 2024

 

He got out of the contract, lost his 50k deposit.
No new car anymore.

 

The money they think they will extract from farangs and the money they will finally get..
 

Do not spend the money you do not have or think you will get soon.

They were expecting to get 20 Million Chinese in with a 2000Baht visa fee.
That's 40 Billion baht they were already planning with and spending it.
See: the 10k digital wallet which will cost 350 Billion Baht.

 

I will be very careful with what I buy here. Rent, don't buy.

New car? why

Travelling inside Thailand and getting taxed on the money I spend here? No, there are beautiful neigbouring countries.

 

Don't P.... off the people who feed you.
The Kasakhs, Chinese group tours will not save you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[retarius]

I just talked to an international tax consultant here in Thailand that deals exclusively with affairs of expats. He tells me not to worry and not to do anything. He said the law isn't changing, it has always been the law but it is being enforced now. he said that the government at present have no way of enforcing the law; that 'savings' except for the prior year, (which are really income and a frequent tax dodge), are exempt; he told me that my US SS payments are exempt under the tax treaty with the US. In short, don't panic, wait and see what the situation actually is before doing making any precipitous moves eg I was going to become a non resident for tax purposes for next year, ie spend less than 180 days here and give up my non-O visa (retirement). 

[Bill97]

Farang money in this issue is peanuts compared to the money of wealthy Thais who will probably squash the proposal before it is enforced.

[MeePeeMai]

9 minutes ago, retarius said:

ie spend less than 180 days here and give up my non-O visa (retirement). 

Why would you give up your Non-O status?  Just file an extension and keep it regardless of how many days in and out.

[retarius]

Just now, MeePeeMai said:

Why would you give up your Non-O status?  Just file an extension and keep it regardless of how many days in and out.

It's complicated, but I also want to switch my existing visa from UK passport to another nationality that I have, and I can't be bothered going through the hassle of applying agains.

[SuperSaiyan]

17 minutes ago, retarius said:

I just talked to an international tax consultant here in Thailand that deals exclusively with affairs of expats. He tells me not to worry and not to do anything. He said the law isn't changing, it has always been the law but it is being enforced now. he said that the government at present have no way of enforcing the law; that 'savings' except for the prior year, (which are really income and a frequent tax dodge), are exempt; he told me that my US SS payments are exempt under the tax treaty with the US. In short, don't panic, wait and see what the situation actually is before doing making any precipitous moves eg I was going to become a non resident for tax purposes for next year, ie spend less than 180 days here and give up my non-O visa (retirement). 

 

Your solipsistic view of the situation doesn't apply to people owning assets. Nobody will care about your "Social Security" or whatever people get paid in their home country. Try to imagine people having money in some Swiss Trust and just sending it over. Before: No taxes applied, after: They want taxes.

[Celsius]

He should be grateful if Thailand implements the laws. The 22 million thonglor condo probably rents for 70,000 baht maximum..... 30,000 if this tax is implemented. Thailand just saved this fool a lot of money long run.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Celsius

[RafPinto]

3 minutes ago, Celsius said:

He should be grateful if Thailand implements the laws. The 22 million thonglor condo probably rents for 70,000 baht maximum. Probably saved this fool a lot of money long run.

 

 

You do not have a clue.
70k in Thong Lor rents you a 60m2 condo.

He's not a fool. A very smart business man.

Sure, in Isaan, you can build a mansion for 5 Million.

 

Have a look at Nana station, there is a condo, prices up to 140 Million Baht.

 

I had a look at Tree condo in Ekkamai. 68m2, 70k a month.

Edited October 9, 2023 by RafPinto

[Celsius]

10 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

You do not have a clue.
70k in Thong Lor rents you a 60m2 condo.

He's not a fool. A very smart business man.

Sure, in Isaan, you can build a mansion for 5 Million.

 

Have a look at Nana station, there is a condo, prices up to 140 Million Baht.

 

Exactly. And that is the price for 60-70sqm 22 million thonglor condo that rents out for 70,000 baht a month. I can send you the endless links.

 

Also, I do not live in Isaan, I live in Ekkamai. I rent a 9 million baht condo for 26,000 a month. 

 

I totally believe he is a smart businessman, but like every other fool that comes to Thailand he is absolutely clueless. 

 

Edit:

 

Just checked my condo building. Rents low as 23,000 for a 9 million condo.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Celsius

[RafPinto]

2 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Exactly. And that is the price for 60-70sqm 22 million thonglor condo that rents out for 70,000 baht a month. I can send you the endless links.

 

Also, I do not live in Isaan, I live in Ekkamai. I rent a 9 million baht condo for 26,000 a month. 

 

I totally believe he is a smart businessman, but like every other fool that comes to Thailand he is absolutely clueless. 

Really.
Have a look at S47. 

Rent 120k a month.

 

Happy for you. 26k in Ekkamai is a good deal.
Have a look at Tree condo in Ekkamai.
60m2 2 bed, 2 bath.

60k

 

[SuperSaiyan]

I agree to a certain extend that this is bothersome, on the other hand I would say, if you're rich you should pay what the tax law says. Or get a better accountant. You could easily get tax residency in some 0-10% tax country which has a DTA with Thailand and still pay nothing in Thailand regardless if 180 days stay or longer. Just look into Cyprus - that's what I am doing.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by SuperSaiyan

[Celsius]

12 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Really.
Have a look at S47. 

Rent 120k a month.

 

Happy for you. 26k in Ekkamai is a good deal.
Have a look at Tree condo in Ekkamai.
60m2 2 bed, 2 bath.

60k

 

 

Which tree? I live close to "Tree" on Sukhumvit 40. Surely not that one.

 

Also the 120,000 rent for S47 is for large units that cost close to 29 million, not 22. Rent in Thailand is very negotiable. Anyway, that building seems to be a bit of an exception as it looks to be owner occupied mostly.

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Really.
Have a look at S47. 

Rent 120k a month.

When I moved to Bangkok, my company paid a nice salary but no perks like rent, car, driver, etc.  Four years on, company got bought by a Euro corporation and their employees got a much smaller salary, but 120,000 monthly rent allowance.  Consequently, I had a 20,000 baht apartment in one building and my workmate had a similar sized apartment, same management company, 50 meters away from my building, and her rent was 120K.  Both near Asoke.  Her building was slightly newer, but that's not the difference.  Real estate agents will find you an apartment that matches any ridiculous budget a company will allow.

 

[Celsius]

8 minutes ago, impulse said:

I had a 20,000 baht apartment in one building and my workmate had a similar sized apartment, same management company, 50 meters away from my building, and her rent was 120K

 

Sometimes you can find this price difference in the same building.

 

Now I know why.

[impulse]

21 minutes ago, Celsius said:

Sometimes you can find this price difference in the same building.

 

Now I know why.

Human nature...  The company's paying so the employee doesn't do much diligence.  The agent makes a lot more money leasing the expensive ones, so they don't even show the cheaper ones in the same building.

 

[DrJack54]

Financial forum at best..

Or Pub forum. 

[RafPinto]

50 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Which tree? I live close to "Tree" on Sukhumvit 40. Surely not that one.

 

Also the 120,000 rent for S47 is for large units that cost close to 29 million, not 22. Rent in Thailand is very negotiable. Anyway, that building seems to be a bit of an exception as it looks to be owner occupied mostly.

I mentioned the wrong condo in Ekkamai.
Not Tree but Rhythm.
68m2 easy around 50-60k in rent.
If you only pay 22k, that must be in an old building.
Can you name the building you are renting in Ekkamai at 22k?

Would be interested.

[ChaiyaTH]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

I just talked to an international tax consultant here in Thailand that deals exclusively with affairs of expats. He tells me not to worry and not to do anything. He said the law isn't changing, it has always been the law but it is being enforced now. he said that the government at present have no way of enforcing the law; that 'savings' except for the prior year, (which are really income and a frequent tax dodge), are exempt; he told me that my US SS payments are exempt under the tax treaty with the US. In short, don't panic, wait and see what the situation actually is before doing making any precipitous moves eg I was going to become a non resident for tax purposes for next year, ie spend less than 180 days here and give up my non-O visa (retirement). 

I think everyone knows thailand is incompetent, but the point is that people are tired of ever changing rules and the lack of a stable climate.

 

I know a lot people who start to experiment living in vietnam etc instead, this is already a trend since before covid, only get worse by the Year.

 

Same thailand is more quiet by the year.

[RafPinto]

39 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Sometimes you can find this price difference in the same building.

 

Now I know why.

My friend worked at the embassy.

Rent was paid through work and the price was 125k

 

Another friend's wife who is a lawyer from the UK, working here for an oil company, their rent is 118k a month, also paid through ex-pat package.

[RafPinto]

1 minute ago, ChaiyaTH said:

I think everyone knows thailand is incompetent, but the point is that people are tired of ever changing rules and the lack of a stable climate.

 

I know a lot people who start to experiment living in vietnam etc instead, this is already a trend since before covid, only get worse by the Year.

 

Same thailand is more quiet by the year.

I thought about VN too but very difficult to get a visa.
Malaysia on the other hand...

[ChaiyaTH]

1 minute ago, RafPinto said:

I thought about VN too but very difficult to get a visa.
Malaysia on the other hand...

Not at all difficult, if you know what you do. I have a business visa there, and im actually writing now from Hanoi.

 

just had a ham cheese bagette 50 baht and pot tea for 40 baht, its insane busy here, like thailand a decade ago. Even locals go out.

 

but hey 20-30 iq points higher here.

Edited October 9, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[impulse]

3 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

My friend worked at the embassy.

Rent was paid through work and the price was 125k

 

Another friend's wife who is a lawyer from the UK, working here for an oil company, their rent is 118k a month, also paid through ex-pat package.

There's a foreign employment consultancy that seems to have pegged 120-125K as the correct amount for expat rent in Bangkok.   Real estate agents love to see them coming...

 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, RafPinto said:

I am in touch with some friends who are/were considering to move to Thailand.

Friend one:

Friend one - as long as the country he worked in had a Double Tax Agreement (DTA) with Thailand, he should have nothing to worry about, assuming he has already paid tax on his savings, and any money he brings into Thailand will be covered by the DTA.

 

1 hour ago, RafPinto said:

Another friend , already living in Thailand

Again - no worries, as as long as the country he worked in had a Double Tax Agreement (DTA) with Thailand and he paid taxes there.

 

There is a massive amount of unwarranted scare mongering about this topic.  Simply incredible.

[RafPinto]

1 minute ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Not at all difficult, if you know what you do. I have a business visa there, and im actually writing now from Hanoi.

 

just had a ham cheese bagette 50 baht and pot tea for 40 baht

sounds interesting.
A friend of mine moved away from Bangkok in 2021. 

He works for "Makro".
Initially, he wanted just to do 2 years there and move back to Thailand and early retire in Huahin where he owned a house. 

Came back end 2022, sold the house and bought in VN. Not more looking back at TH.

[spidermike007]

The problem with this proposed tax, is that like anything that comes from the sorry, and incapable central government, it is clear as mud. If they made a simple statement that clarified the new tax will only apply to those who are already taxpayers in Thailand, for example, it would help your friend and many others to plan. I believe this will be the case, anyway. 

[ChaiyaTH]

3 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

sounds interesting.
A friend of mine moved away from Bangkok in 2021. 

He works for "Makro".
Initially, he wanted just to do 2 years there and move back to Thailand and early retire in Huahin where he owned a house. 

Came back end 2022, sold the house and bought in VN. Not more looking back at TH.

Yeah its not easy to leave thailand after you invest years to feel “home” but it becomes more and more clear to me making that move too. 

[foreverlomsak]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

spend less than 180 days here and give up my non-O visa (retirement). 

No need to give up your retirement extensions, you only need to be in country at the time of renewal and there is no minimum period of residence for Immigration purposes, the 180 days is purely and simply for assessing Tax Residency.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

Exactly. And that is the price for 60-70sqm 22 million thonglor condo that rents out for 70,000 baht a month. I can send you the endless links.

 

3.81% return on investment gross, less tax, outgoings, vacancy factor, agents fees, etc, etc, I would say that would bring that down to say 2.0% nett.

 

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

I totally believe he is a smart businessman, but like every other fool that comes to Thailand he is absolutely clueless. 

I agree on the 2nd part of your comment.

 

Having had over 3 decades in the coal face of property, in all facets, I wouldn't invest my money in property here, been here 8 years and from what I have seen, analysed, it's not a good investment, regardless is you live in it or lease it.

 

While rents are a cheaper alternative, the money you money you would have laid out on your 'investment', say 22,000,000 could have been invested in other vehicles, for example; I have been earning 7.65% tax free from my investments this year, which is considered one of the worst in the 8 years that I have been investing, but am grateful, as it is a good return on money invested by me. 

 

Capital appreciation on property here is not good in my opinion, so other investments which also have no outgoings are a sound bet as far as I'm concerned.

 

[khunjake]

1 hour ago, RafPinto said:

You do not have a clue.
70k in Thong Lor rents you a 60m2 condo.

He's not a fool. A very smart business man.

Sure, in Isaan, you can build a mansion for 5 Million.

 

Have a look at Nana station, there is a condo, prices up to 140 Million Baht.

 

I had a look at Tree condo in Ekkamai. 68m2, 70k a month.

We rented a 2br/2ba there in 2015 for 40k/month. Moved out after 1 year contract ended. Very thin walls in that place. Close to BTS and Gateway but we moved to PK down the way and slashed our rent in half. Was well worth the move. 

[ChaiyaTH]

Just now, khunjake said:

We rented a 2br/2ba there in 2015 for 40k/month. Moved out after 1 year contract ended. Very thin walls in that place. Close to BTS and Gateway but we moved to PK down the way and slashed our rent in half. Was well worth the move. 

A 2br 80sqm lake view with private direct elevator access in vietnam is like 25k lol