Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[Nick Carter icp]

17 minutes ago, placnx said:

Israel & the US simply ignored the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.

The day before the 2002 Arab peace summit was revealed , Hamas killed 30 Israelis in a bomb attack in Netanya Israel

   Israel then refused to participate in any discussions or negotiation , because they didn't want to meet and discuss whilst being attacked .

   Half the other Arab Countries also rejected participating in the proposals

[Morch]

1 minute ago, placnx said:

Hamas agreed to cooperate if there was an agreement. Perhaps it was easy to agree to something that was not going to happen because US & Israel were against the Peace Initiative.

The night before the summit, Hamas carried out a suicide bombing, killing 30 Israelis.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, stevenl said:

Nonsense clearly stolen from some fringe conspiracy site 

Sounds like a good theory to me.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

1, I think the only way forward is a mutually agreed entity/party that both sides can except to negotiate a cease-fire, that alone might be impossible.

2, Take all the women and children out of Gaza, then any males that can be proven to not having any association with Hamas.

3, The rest can then either surrender or face the consequences.

2. IMO no males will be able to prove to the israeli's satisfaction that they are not Hamas supporters, as right now the desire of every able bodied male in Gaza is to kill as many israelis as possible.

 

3. The rest can then ............... surrender

Never going to happen. They have nothing to lose, and IMO desire to kill as many israelis as possible before they are killed. IMO they are ready and waiting for the land invasion, where the Israeli military superiority is negated by the rubble that the israelis have created.

If they did surrender, their fate is not something any would want- death would be preferable.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Rather then calling for civilised peace talks through diplomacy., ike the Clinton administration did in the past with success.

Errrr, what "success" did Clinton achieve? Has anything changed? Has anything got better for the Palestinians?

 

Answer- NO.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Errrr, what "success" did Clinton achieve? Has anything changed? Has anything got better for the Palestinians?

 

Answer- NO.

The Palestinian leadership has a long history of rejecting any deals.

Starting in 1948 when they had the best offer they're ever going to get. 

Israel gets stronger and the offers get worse because if you keep starting wars and keep losing, that's the way it works. 

Now the majority of Israelis and Palestinians don't even want two states.

Hamas is a terrorist group not interested in even helping their own people in THIS LIFE -- they're all about DEATH. 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

You have no point. You go on and on about something that doesn't even have anything to do with the topic. Chomsky, as far as this concerns,

You obviously have not followed the full thread of the conversation concerning Noam Chomsky, and is responding to individual posts  out of context, so obviously you can't see the relevancy. 

If you are interested to know how Chomsky relates to the conversation I am having and you chose to be part off I suggest you backtrack to my original post ad then follow the thread of this conversation. 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sounds like a good theory to me.

Sounds like you'll go for any bit of nonsense, if it matches your prejudice and AlJazeera reports.

[save the frogs]

aseannow has a resident military analyst?

impressive.

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

2. IMO no males will be able to prove to the israeli's satisfaction that they are not Hamas supporters, as right now the desire of every able bodied male in Gaza is to kill as many israelis as possible.

 

3. The rest can then ............... surrender

Never going to happen. They have nothing to lose, and IMO desire to kill as many israelis as possible before they are killed. IMO they are ready and waiting for the land invasion, where the Israeli military superiority is negated by the rubble that the israelis have created.

If they did surrender, their fate is not something any would want- death would be preferable.

 

I kinda doubt you missed the many video clips of the mass evacuation, many of them featuring able bodied males. Not everyone is keen on Hamas ideology, or has a death wish. If your comment was anywhere near true, you'd see more Palestinians heeding Hamas's calls to remain in place and wait for the Israeli incursion. You have no insights into what Palestinian think beyond what's shown on AlJazeera's somewhat biased reports, and your wishful thinking.

 

Again with the 'nothing to lose' nonsense? Not everyone wants to die for the cause, even if you prescribe it from behind the safety of thousands of miles and a computer screen. If they surrender, they'll be imprisoned, that's about it. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

You obviously have not followed the full thread of the conversation concerning Noam Chomsky, and is responding to individual posts  out of context, so obviously you can't see the relevancy. 

If you are interested to know how Chomsky relates to the conversation I am having and you chose to be part off I suggest you backtrack to my original post ad then follow the thread of this conversation. 

I have read your posts and my comments stand. Regardless of your current obsession, Chomsky is not the topic of this discussion. The only 'context' is that you can't (or won't) formulate your own thoughts on the situation, and rely on copy/pasted bits of other views. I'm quite familiar with Chomsky's writings (both on linguistic and the political matters), thanks. I suggest you address points made by other posters on your own merit, without the crutch of name-dropping.

[ThaiFelix]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

Normally, yes. Not sure about this case, though.

 

Some actions go beyond understanding. There could have been many ways to carry this attack without deliberate wholesale murder of innocents. They planned it meticulously for months, practiced for it. They knew what will come later, and deliberately did not prepare for it.

 

One has to be careful with information these days.  Israel, Netanyahu and even Biden were announcing days ago how 40 Isreali babies had been found decapitated.  All saying they had seen the pictures.  All retracted their statements later, after the damage was done, saying it was only here say by some IDF soldiers?  Likewise another news report from Israel of how so many hostages were rescued from a Hamas held kibutz by IDF forces.  The "rescued" however had a different story:  the kibbutz boss had deserted them when war broke out and they had been waiting for word on what was going on until they were 'found".  They hadnt seen any Hamas fighters at all, but they were rescued?

[Jeff the Chef]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

Sounds like you'll go for any bit of nonsense, if it matches your prejudice and AlJazeera reports.

Nothing to do with AlJazeera, it was written by Jonathan Cook an award-winning British journalist.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Nothing to do with AlJazeera, it was written by Jonathan Cook an award-winning British journalist.

Johnathan Cook holds extreme, one-sided views on the conflict. Try to read my reply to poster in the context of his usual content on these topics.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, ThaiFelix said:

One has to be careful with information these days.  Israel, Netanyahu and even Biden were announcing days ago how 40 Isreali babies had been found decapitated.  All saying they had seen the pictures.  All retracted their statements later, after the damage was done, saying it was only here say by some IDF soldiers?  Likewise another news report from Israel of how so many hostages were rescued from a Hamas held kibutz by IDF forces.  The "rescued" however had a different story:  the kibbutz boss had deserted them when war broke out and they had been waiting for word on what was going on until they were 'found".  They hadnt seen any Hamas fighters at all, but they were rescued?

I have already commented that I find these attempts to minimize Hamas's atrocities through focusing on this detail or that, repulsive. There's no shortage of evil associated with this attack. That you, and other posters on here keep harping on it, despite there being gruesome pictures out there, demanding they be posted on here or else all of what is claimed is untrue - that's just vile. 

 

There are, naturally, inaccurate reports - that's quite normal for a battle zone. To discount everything, or to condone and minimize what Hamas did - that's already a choice. Apparently, you've made yours long ago.

[Nick Carter icp]

18 minutes ago, ThaiFelix said:

One has to be careful with information these days.  Israel, Netanyahu and even Biden were announcing days ago how 40 Isreali babies had been found decapitated. 

Yes, one really needs to be careful with misinformation these days 

   Could you post a link where Israel/Netanyahu claimed that there were 40 dead decapitated babies ?

   Can you back up your claims ?

  

[riclag]

16 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

1, I think the only way forward is a mutually agreed entity/party that both sides can except to negotiate a cease-fire, that alone might be impossible.

2, Take all the women and children out of Gaza, then any males that can be proven to not having any association with Hamas.

3, The rest can then either surrender or face the consequences.

Its the children too ,hamas is training future terrorist.

And on July 12, the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs sounded the alarm about “Hamas’ Summer Indoctrination Camps for 50,000 Children”, where kids are taught kidnapping techniques and weapons handling and are also instructed in the use of “computer simulators to practice shooting Israeli soldiers and police officers at the Temple Mount and al-Aqsa Mosque”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

Edited October 15, 2023 by riclag

[Jeff the Chef]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

I have already commented that I find these attempts to minimize Hamas's atrocities through focusing on this detail or that, repulsive. There's no shortage of evil associated with this attack. That you, and other posters on here keep harping on it, despite there being gruesome pictures out there, demanding they be posted on here or else all of what is claimed is untrue - that's just vile. 

 

There are, naturally, inaccurate reports - that's quite normal for a battle zone. To discount everything, or to condone and minimize what Hamas did - that's already a choice. Apparently, you've made yours long ago.

So if March has commented nobody else needs to put an alternative view on here.

 

I too feel Hamas's atrocities are repulsive and vile,

 

Then when you go on to say it's quite normal for inaccurate reports to come out of a battle zone that are then reported to the leader of Israel who then informs his main backer the US President.

 

Who both then repeat these allegations to the rest of the world, now that, I find disgusting.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, ThaiFelix said:

One has to be careful with information these days.  Israel, Netanyahu and even Biden were announcing days ago how 40 Isreali babies had been found decapitated.  All saying they had seen the pictures.  All retracted their statements later, after the damage was done, saying it was only here say by some IDF soldiers?  Likewise another news report from Israel of how so many hostages were rescued from a Hamas held kibutz by IDF forces.  The "rescued" however had a different story:  the kibbutz boss had deserted them when war broke out and they had been waiting for word on what was going on until they were 'found".  They hadnt seen any Hamas fighters at all, but they were rescued?

Truth is the first casualty of war!

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Johnathan Cook holds extreme, one-sided views on the conflict. Try to read my reply to poster in the context of his usual content on these topics.

Johnathan Cook holds different views on the conflict than I. Try to read my reply to poster in the context of his usual content on these topics.

 

Fixed it for you.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I have already commented that I find these attempts to minimize Hamas's atrocities through focusing on this detail or that, repulsive. There's no shortage of evil associated with this attack. That you, and other posters on here keep harping on it, despite there being gruesome pictures out there, demanding they be posted on here or else all of what is claimed is untrue - that's just vile. 

 

There are, naturally, inaccurate reports - that's quite normal for a battle zone. To discount everything, or to condone and minimize what Hamas did - that's already a choice. Apparently, you've made yours long ago.

Back at you.

 

 

I have already commented that I find these attempts to minimize israeli atrocities through focusing on this detail or that, repulsive. There's no shortage of evil associated with this attack. That you, and other posters on here keep harping on it, despite there being gruesome pictures out there, demanding they be posted on here or else all of what is claimed is untrue - that's just vile. 

 

There are, naturally, inaccurate reports - that's quite normal for a battle zone. To discount everything, or to condone and minimize what israel did - that's already a choice. Apparently, you've made yours long ago.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

49 minutes ago, riclag said:

Its the children too ,hamas is training future terrorist.

And on July 12, the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs sounded the alarm about “Hamas’ Summer Indoctrination Camps for 50,000 Children”, where kids are taught kidnapping techniques and weapons handling and are also instructed in the use of “computer simulators to practice shooting Israeli soldiers and police officers at the Temple Mount and al-Aqsa Mosque”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

So, what is your solution?

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Back at you.

 

 

I have already commented that I find these attempts to minimize israeli atrocities through focusing on this detail or that, repulsive. There's no shortage of evil associated with this attack. That you, and other posters on here keep harping on it, despite there being gruesome pictures out there, demanding they be posted on here or else all of what is claimed is untrue - that's just vile. 

 

There are, naturally, inaccurate reports - that's quite normal for a battle zone. To discount everything, or to condone and minimize what israel did - that's already a choice. Apparently, you've made yours long ago.

 

 

Saying the same thing back to a person after they've just said it to you is rather silly 

[riclag]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

So, what is your solution?

Hamas must not be allowed to govern Gaza!

They are a terrorist organization!

 

 After the IDF forces weed out Hamas ! Then the UN can determine a pathway forward. imop

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Saying the same thing back to a person after they've just said it to you is rather silly 

Just making the point that both sides have committed atrocities.

Despite the wish of certain posters to excuse israeli atrocities it's all documented, so can't be hidden.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, riclag said:

Hamas must not be allowed to govern Gaza!

They are a terrorist organization!

 

 After the IDF forces weed out Hamas ! Then the UN can determine a pathway forward. imop

Sorry, but the UN hasn't been able to fix this for 30 years, and won't fix it in the future because the US can veto anything they come up with.

 

I'd say that israel has just created 2 million new Hamas supporters. Hate begets hate. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Just making the point that both sides have committed atrocities.

Despite the wish of certain posters to excuse israeli atrocities it's all documented, so can't be hidden.

No they haven't .

Palestinians terror attack on Israel targeted innocent civilians and they committed war crimes  by murdering people who had nothing to do with the conflict .

   Israel has told civilians to flee are area where the Hamas terrorists are located . 

   You support the terrorists , the bad guys , the child killers and murderers of innocent civilians 

 

 

[riclag]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Sorry, but the UN hasn't been able to fix this for 30 years, and won't fix it in the future because the US can veto anything they come up with.

 

I'd say that israel has just created 2 million new Hamas supporters. Hate begets hate. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

 

 

I think its safe to say a majority of Gaza inhabitants support Hamas,after all didn’t they elect them as a governing body!

 

The rocket attacks on the Israel must stop and all the hostages must be released unconditionally!

 Side note ,United Nations is suspect ,as we speak! 

Edited October 15, 2023 by riclag

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

No they haven't .

Palestinians terror attack on Israel targeted innocent civilians and they committed war crimes  by murdering people who had nothing to do with the conflict .

   Israel has told civilians to flee are area where the Hamas terrorists are located . 

   You support the terrorists , the bad guys , the child killers and murderers of innocent civilians 

 

 

Please stop making it up about me.

I support the innocent lives being lost by israeli bombing on a defenseless population.

If killing 724 children is OK with you, that is on you.

 

The world is watching, the world will not forget.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So if March has commented nobody else needs to put an alternative view on here.

 

I too feel Hamas's atrocities are repulsive and vile,

 

Then when you go on to say it's quite normal for inaccurate reports to come out of a battle zone that are then reported to the leader of Israel who then informs his main backer the US President.

 

Who both then repeat these allegations to the rest of the world, now that, I find disgusting.

He's welcome to hold alternative views - I just find the despicable. I think that's allowed.

 

What you find disgusting is common sense. As in, acknowledging that's not quite what was said, and that visiting USA officials commented directly on the atrocities as being worse than what they saw from Daesh.